Who is this Jesus?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
John is the prophet
The prophet prepared the way for Father God to visit His people in power and grace, as Spirit, in the Glorious vessel of the Son of God.

The vessel is not the contents of that vessel.

Coll 1.18
“For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the FULLNESS TO DWELL IN HIM TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS TO HIMSELF”
2Cor 5.19
“namely that God was IN CHRIST reconciling the world to Himself”

[Cubes]

Quote (Guest @ July 14 2005,19:28)

As I read it, the prophet of the Highest is John the baptist. 13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. So wouldn't this make the Messiah YHWH the Highest since John is His prophet?

I agree that John is the prophet of the Highest that is being spoken of here.

This would not make messiah YHWH the Highest because of Luke 1:35 and the verses that show that Jesus now sits at the right hand of the Power who is also the Highest.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

From these three examples, we can establish that Jesus is not the Highest. In Luke 6:35-36, he is speaking of the Father as the Highest.

[vicalcabasa]

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.– Heb 1:1-3

YHWH cannot be Jesus because…

1.YHWH is the main character in OT and
2.YHWH claims to be the Almighty God
3.YHWH declared that he will send the Messiah
4.JESUS never claimed as God.
5.JESUS claimed to be the Son of God. ( God and the Son of God are not the same in the scriptures, they have special relationship though)
6.JESUS also claimed to be the Messiah
7.YHWH and JESUS are two distinct persons.
8.One is God the other is Son of Living God
9.One is Sender the other is the Sent
10.One is Father the other is son
11.One is Unbegotten the other is begotten

How can they be one and the same?

[NickHassan]

Thank you. Simple isn't it?

[Anonymous]

Jeremiah 23: 1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith YHWH. 2 Therefore thus saith YHWH God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith YHWH. 3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith YHWH. 5 Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, YHWH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Yes Jesus Christ brought the Father to His people within his glorious vessel.

[vicalcabasa]

this could be a case of mistaken identity which comes from the close relationship of YHWH to JESUS, let me enumerate as many as I can remember…

1.YHWH and JESUS are both Divine
2.What ever YHWH has, Jesus owns
3.JESUS is the exact representation of YHWH
4.JESUS is the image of the invisible YHWH
5.JESUS was with YHWH in the beginning
6.YHWH made JESUS his heir
7.YHWH share his glory with JESUS
8.JESUS Is YHWH is with us
9. JESUS is the righteousness of YHWH
10.the fullness of YWHW dwells in JESUS
11.JESUS is the LOGOS of YHWH
12.YHWH gave all power and authority to JESUS. (by possessing all the powers of YHWH, technically this will make Jesus God Almighty, but in a sense only because YHWH wills it. just an opinion. but this is scriptural – “After Jesus subjected all things to himself, he will make himself subject to God so that all in all God will be above all. It all come back to YHWH”)

YHWH spoke in the past in various ways, through the burning bush, thru angels, thru prophets and even thru a donkey. But none can really claim to have seen and heard YHWH the way JESUS did. JESUS can claim that he is the only one that has seen and heard GOD (YHWH) because he was with YHWH

[NickHassan]

Very helpful. Thank you.

[epistemaniac]

why is Jesus referred to as the mighty God then vic?

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

Gill rightly says “Christ is God, truly and properly so; as appears from his name Jehovah, which is peculiar to the most High; from his nature and perfections, being the same with his Father's: from the works performed by him, as those of creation, providence, miracles, redemption, resurrection from the dead, &c.; and from the worship given him, which only belongs to God; also he is called our God, your God, their God, my God, by which epithets those that are not truly God are never called; he is said to be God manifest in the flesh; God over all, blessed for ever; the great God, the living God, the true God, and eternal life; and he is “the mighty One” as appears by the works he did, previous to his incarnation; as the creation of all things out of nothing; the upholding of all things by the word or his power; the management of all the affairs of providence, there being nothing done but what he was concerned in; as the confusion of languages; the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah; bringing the children of Israel out of Egypt; leading and going before them through the Red Sea and wilderness; and bearing and carrying them all the days of old: and also by the works he did when here on earth; as his miracles, called his mighty works; such as healing all manner of diseases by a word speaking, or by touching the person, or by the person touching him, even his garment, or without seeing the person at all, and always without the use of medicines; dispossessing devils out of the bodies of men; power over the elements, as to change water into wine, rebuke the wind and seas, &c.; raising the dead, and even his own body when dead; and, above all, the great work of redemption, by which he appears to be the mighty One indeed; his Father's call of him to it shows it; his undertaking it confirms it; and his actual performance of it puts it out of all doubt; as well as what was then done by him; such as bearing all the sins of his people; engaging with all their enemies; conquering them, and delivering them out of their hands: likewise by what he does now, partly in the conversion of his people; quickening men dead in trespasses and sins; causing dry bones to live; giving spiritual sight to such as were born blind; plucking out of the hands of Satan, and turning from his power to God; which shows him to be stronger than the strong man armed; beginning, carrying on, and finishing the work of faith with power on them; as well as at first making them willing to submit to his righteousness and to be saved by him; and partly in his care of them afterwards; he having the government of them on his shoulders; supplying all their wants; bearing all their burdens; and supporting them under all their afflictions, temptations, and desertions; protecting them from all their enemies; strengthening them to do his will and work; and keeping them from falling totally and finally, and preserving them safe to his everlasting kingdom and glory: moreover, by what he will do hereafter; binding Satan, and confining him for the space of a thousand years; clearing the world of all his and his people's enemies; raising the dead; and judging the world; and destroying wicked men and devils with an everlasting destruction.”

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
Did you not know Jesus was the Son of God and of divine nature? But he is not the Father who is his Father.

[Anonymous]

Hi Nick,
Just curious, can you show me where epistemaniac has said that Jesus is the Father?

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Guest @ July 15 2005,07:53)

Hi Nick, Just curious, can you show me where epistemaniac has said that Jesus is the Father?

no kidding guest!!! my goodness… how many times do we have to go over this!?!?! neither the traditional doctrine of the Trinity, nor I, have ever said that Jesus was the Father…. I just don't get it….. thats just sooooo tired Nick… surely you need to develop some newer material…. 😉

[NickHassan]

Hi e and guest,

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. Right?

The Father is the God of the Jews. Right?

So Jesus is the Son of God who is his Father. Right?

So Jesus is not the God of the OT. Right?  

And Jesus is not part of that God as he is the Son of that God. Right?

So trinity theory is nonsense. Right!

[Anonymous]

Actually Nick the God of the Jews was/is a triune God. Jesus became a Son when he was begotten. And since there is only one recorded begettal in scripture it is logical to assume that He became that Son at His incarnation. Before this He was the Word of God, not the Son of God. If you disagree then show me one scripture (that is not prophetic) that mentions Jesus as a Son in the OT. Also, show me one verse that elucidates his begettal “before time”.

[NickHassan]

Hi L,
Jesus is the “only begotten Son” and as you know that the greek word for “only begotten” is “monogenes”.

“Monogenes”has nothing to do with his physical birth.

So since it is used with the word “Son” it must surely speak of his Sonship status “with” the Father, separate from the Father, in the beginning.

Do you agree?

[epistemaniac]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2005,08:08)

Hi e and guest, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. Right? The Father is the God of the Jews. Right? So Jesus is the Son of God who is his Father. Right? So Jesus is not the God of the OT. Right?   And Jesus is not part of that God as he is the Son of that God. Right? So trinity theory is nonsense. Right!

wrong…. your syllogism, if i could even call it that… is faulty in that you equivocate on the word “God”… you start with your assumption that the Son cannot be God, and base your reasoning on this faulty premise…. this where you go wrong Nick….

So… you say

“Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. Right?”
Right

“The Father is the God of the Jews. Right?”
Right, while it would be better to word this as that Yahweh is spoken of as “Father”. Further, it is important to point out that just becasue the Father is God of the Jews, this doesn't mean that the Son isn't as well…. nor the Holy Spirit for that matter….. you continue to make the mistake of thinking that becasue the Father is God, that means it is logically impossible for the Son and the Holy Spirit to be God as well… this just doesn't follow.

“So Jesus is the Son of God who is his Father. Right?”
Right

“So Jesus is not the God of the OT. Right?
Wrong, here is where the equivocation creeps in…. luckily it does not creep in in a very stealthy manner, and is thus easily detected….. you have gone from speaking of the Father and the Son, that there is a distinction to be made between the Father and the Son, which is a legitimate point… to saying that just becasue Jesus is not the Father, He is therefore not God, and this is the faulty reasoning that pops up its…. head over and over again in these discussions.

“And Jesus is not part of that God as he is the Son of that God. Right?”
Jesus is God, thats what is right.

hope there aren't too many typos… can't sleep due to the pain…. but I am going to try and lay down again anyways…

blessings all

[NickHassan]

Hi E,
Jn 8 .42
” Jesus said to them
' If God were your Father you would love me FOR I PROCEEDED FORTH AND HAVE COME FROM GOD, for I have not even come on my own initiative but He sent me”
Jn 8.54
” Jesus answered
'If I glorify myself my glory is nothing;it is MY FATHER who glorifies me, OF WHOM YOU SAY 'He is our God' and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him;”

So Jesus proceeded forth from God so he is separate from the God he proceeded from.

Jesus was sent by God so he was not part of that God sending himself.

Jesus identifies the God of the Jews as his Father separate from himself and not himself or part of himself.

Jesus is God. He is the God who was with God in the beginning and not a part of the God he was with.Nowhere is God identified as any form of triune being anywhere in the OT or NT. That premise comes from the minds of men.

[Anonymous]

So there are 2 Gods?

[NickHassan]

There are more than two, surely you know scripture? But for us there is one God and one Lord. We worship the one God and that is the Father and not a “committee” God.
1Cor 8.5f

[Anonymous]

Yes I do know scripture, well enough to know that it affirms the existence of one God. What you are espousing is polytheism Nick.

[Author]

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