Who is this Jesus?

[Christofer]

There is much truth and much confusion – but it seems obvious to me that no one here quite agrees about any of it. I know I sure don't – Just wanted you to know – Im praying for all of us.

[Christofer]

Diana – I posted without seeing your question – but I fully believe YHWH was Jesus and the Father was unknown to us – after all – Jesus did say no man had ever seen or heard the Father – if this is so – who else could be YHWH other than the one the Father gave all authority over the heaven and earth – – – only Jesus could be YHWH in this context.

[Cubes]

Hi Diane,
Hi Christofer

We can explore together.  
I agree that no man has seen God.

Israel knew only One God who revealed himself to be YHWH.
When Jesus came, he did not profess or declare himself to be that God, but rather the son of that God.  The conflict was not that He was YHWH but rather the Son of God.  And his various quotes (Is 61, period of temptation in the wilderness etc) refer to YHWH.

Now, it needs to be considered was YHWH prophesying about himself as Messiah?  I don't think so.  

[NickHassan]

Hi,
If Jesus walked the earth before his birth then he would have an advantage over us and what is said about him, that he was “like to us in all ways except sin” could not be true surely?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Heb 2.17
” Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in all things, that he might become a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people”

[Christofer]

Hi Cubes –

Your points are valid – but I have to confess – I still disagree…

I believe Jesus was given all authority over heaven and earth when Jesus created all things.

If Jesus had all authority – how could the Father act as God (YHWH)?

This leads me to another thought –

If no man has seen or heard from the Father – then who was it that professed Jesus to be the Son of God?

[Christofer]

“If no man has seen or heard from the Father – then who was it that professed Jesus to be the Son of God? “

I mean at the time of Christ's Baptism – sorry

[NickHassan]

Quote (Christofer @ July 13 2005,00:57)

Hi Cubes – Your points are valid – but I have to confess – I still disagree… I believe Jesus was given all authority over heaven and earth when Jesus created all things. If Jesus had all authority – how could the Father act as God (YHWH)? This leads me to another thought – If no man has seen or heard from the Father – then who was it that professed Jesus to be the Son of God?

Hi C,
Jesus is not the creator. God is. Everything was created THROUGH the Son of God, not BY him.

All authority was GIVEN to Jesus when he was equipped and sent to do the work of God in God's Name. If a Commander gives authority to his underlings he does not lose that authority and position. It is part of God's work to delegate.

Those that “saw” in the Spirit, not with their eyes, the truth of God recognised him as the Son of God.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Christofer @ July 12 2005,16:44)

I fully believe YHWH was Jesus and the Father was unknown to us – after all – Jesus did say no man had ever seen or heard the Father – if this is so – who else could be YHWH other than the one the Father gave all authority over the heaven and earth – – – only Jesus could be YHWH in this context.

Greetings in Christ Diana and Christofer!
I am enjoying your contributions. Could you elaborate on you comments here please. I am interested to know the scriptures that lead you to this conclusion. I too wonder if many of the OT references to YHWH apply to Jesus, as many of the NT writers seem to make that link. Alot of the major and minor prophetic books, in particular, seem to be refer directly to Jesus IMO.
GBU

[NickHassan]

Quote (Christofer @ July 13 2005,00:58)

“If no man has seen or heard from the Father – then who was it that professed Jesus to be the Son of God? “ I mean at the time of Christ's Baptism – sorry

Hi c,
Check the context-spoken to a contemporary group of men.

It does not say no man has heard the Father “at any time” as it does say about SEEING GOD.

[vicalcabasa]

Hi everybody.

With regards to the pre-existence of Jesus, my thoughts are these…

If you regard time as part of creation, meaning time was created at the same time as space and matter. Then the scriptures that say Jesus was before the creation, would mean that He was beyond time and therefore with God ever since. For to me, to be outside of time is to dwell in eternity. and eternity is the absence of time. God begat him from eternity. Remember that Jesus also took the title to himself as The Alpha And The Omega.

But if time is outside creation, meaning that time existed even before matter and space was created, then it is possible that Jesus was begotten by God in some point in time, and that God was alone in the very beginning.

Personally I prefer the latter. But then again I could be wrong, for we are way beyond this dimension. My hope is when Jesus is finally revealed, we will know him as he is.

your comments are most welcome.

[Dianalevich]

Quote (Guest @ July 13 2005,01:17)

Quote (Christofer @ July 12 2005,16:44) I fully believe YHWH was Jesus and the Father was unknown to us – after all – Jesus did say no man had ever seen or heard the Father – if this is so – who else could be YHWH other than the one the Father gave all authority over the heaven and earth – – – only Jesus could be YHWH in this context. Greetings in Christ Diana and Christofer! I am enjoying your contributions. Could you elaborate on you comments here please. I am interested to know the scriptures that lead you to this conclusion. I too wonder if many of the OT references to YHWH apply to Jesus, as many of the NT writers seem to make that link. Alot of the major and minor prophetic books, in particular, seem to be refer directly to Jesus IMO. GBU

Hello Guest! Here is an article that I have been reading,

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/yhwh.htm

check it out and let me know your thoughts. GBU! Peace, Diana

[NickHassan]

Quote (vicalcabasa @ July 14 2005,04:00)

Hi everybody. With regards to the pre-existence of Jesus, my thoughts are these… If you regard time as part of creation, meaning time was created at the same time as space and matter. Then the scriptures that say Jesus was before the creation, would mean that He was beyond time and therefore with God ever since. For to me, to be outside of time is to dwell in eternity. and eternity is the absence of time. God begat him from eternity. Remember that Jesus also took the title to himself as The Alpha And The Omega. But if time is outside creation, meaning that time existed even before matter and space was created, then it is possible that Jesus was begotten by God in some point in time, and that God was alone in the very beginning. Personally I prefer the latter. But then again I could be wrong, for we are way beyond this dimension. My hope is when Jesus is finally revealed, we will know him as he is. your comments are most welcome.

Hi v,
Good thoughts. But time is only an artificial measure. Why do we give it so much importance? We know the Son was begotten in the beginning so if he was begotten then he was not the Original from he was begotten. The rest as far as the exactTIME goes is not that relevant is it?

[Christofer]

Nick – true – I botched up my paraphrase of His words about hearing the Father – sorry – but it still remains that no one had seen the Father – yet many saw – and heard Yahweh…

Gen. 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, Yahweh appeared to Abram, and said to him, “I am God Almighty. Walk before me, and be blameless. 2 I will make my covenant between me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” (WEB)

Exodus 24:9 Then Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up. 10 They saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was like a paved work of sapphire stone, like the skies for clearness. 11 He didn't lay his hand on the nobles of the children of Israel. They saw God, and ate and drank. 12 Yahweh said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain, and stay here, and I will give you the tables of stone with the law and the commands that I have written, that you may teach them.”

Isaiah 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple. 2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each one had six wings. With two he covered his face. With two he covered his feet. With two he flew. 3 One called to another, and said,

“Holy, holy, holy, is Yahweh of Armies!
The whole earth is full of his glory!”

There is example after example of men seeing AND hearing Yahweh – and not all of them are represented by 'the Angel of Yahweh' such as Moses saw in the burning bush (Ex. 33:23)…

If Yahweh has been seen – then He cannot be the Father – but the Lord – who has all authority over the earth.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
This confusion is understandable. God is Spirit and lives in heaven. Many have believed they have seen God but have not, rather angels etc. Many have seen visions of God but that is not the same as seeing God. Many have seen manifestations of the glory of God.

We can't even look at the Sun, one of God's minor creations!

[Anonymous]

Quote (Dianalevich @ July 14 2005,04:43)

Quote (Guest @ July 13 2005,01:17) Quote (Christofer @ July 12 2005,16:44) I fully believe YHWH was Jesus and the Father was unknown to us – after all – Jesus did say no man had ever seen or heard the Father – if this is so – who else could be YHWH other than the one the Father gave all authority over the heaven and earth – – – only Jesus could be YHWH in this context. Greetings in Christ Diana and Christofer! I am enjoying your contributions. Could you elaborate on you comments here please. I am interested to know the scriptures that lead you to this conclusion. I too wonder if many of the OT references to YHWH apply to Jesus, as many of the NT writers seem to make that link. Alot of the major and minor prophetic books, in particular, seem to be refer directly to Jesus IMO. GBU Hello Guest!  Here is an article that I have been reading,     http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/yhwh.htm check it out and let me know your thoughts.  GBU!  Peace, Diana

Very interesting.

Quote

1.  Did the Lord Jesus teach that no one in OT times has ever heard or seen the Father? 2.  Was Jesus teaching the absolute truth when he taught that in John 5:37? 3.  Did anyone in the OT Scriptures ever see the form or hear the voice of YHWH? 4.  Can you name the various people who did? 5.  Is the Bible free of contradictions? 6.  How does that truth compare with John 1:18? 7.  Is YHWH the “I AM” of Exo. 3:13,14? 8.  Did Jesus identify himself as “I AM” (Jn. 8:58)? 9.  Is there any other “I AM” that Jesus could have referred to in the OT other than Exo. 3:14? 10.  Was Christ “the Rock” that accompanied the Israelites in Moses' day? 11.  Is YHWH shown to be the “Rock” in the OT? 12.  Can we compare various sets of OT and NT Scriptures to learn the true, hidden identity of Jesus of Nazareth? 13.  Did Isaiah write that the voice would prepare the way before YHWH? 14.  Was that same voice identified as John the Baptist in the NT? 15.  Did John the Baptist prepare the way before Jesus? 16.  Is Jesus YHWH, but not the Father? 17.  Is YHWH Lord of lords? 18.  Is Jesus Lord of lords? 19.  Is Jesus YHWH, but not the Father? 20.  Was YHWH ever pierced? 21.  Did the Apostle John apply that same Scripture which teaches that YHWH was pierced and apply it to Jesus? 22.  Does your understanding of Jesus’ identity allow you to do the same? 23.  Who is the stone that causes men to stumble? 24.  All things were created for whom? 25.  Does Jesus change like part of creation? 26.  Is the first and the last Almighty (Isa. 44:6)? 27.  Is Jesus called the first and the last (Rev. 1:17; 2:8)? 28.  Can there be two who are the first and the last? 29.  Is YHWH the Savior? 30.  Is Jesus the Savior? 31.  Who has the only name is which salvation is found? 32.  Is YHWH our Refuge? 33.  Is Jesus your Refuge?

Thank You.

[Cubes]

Quote

8. Did Jesus identify himself as “I AM” (Jn. 8:58)? 9. Is there any other “I AM” that Jesus could have referred to in the OT other than Exo. 3:14?

Hi Diana,

Interesting set of questions. I shall try to address #8 & 9 at this time:

Q: Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
A: Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Jesus was speaking with regards to time and we can agree, preeminence when he said that before Abraham, I AM.

Methuselah can say the same thing considering his lifespan. He lived 960+ years and Abraham lived about 160+ years. Abraham's life's span can fit into Methuselah's several times over.

Jesus by saying “I AM” also used just 2/5 of the phrase I AM THAT I AM, also unlike the Ex. 3:14 text, he was speaking specifically to time. The Speaker in exodus made no reference to time in the context. By this method, we can all say to one degree or another, “I AM.” So I don't think that hold's. Had he not qualified his “I AM…” with other adverbs or whatever the proper grammatical word is here, then we could question and doubt. But he specifically tells us what it is that He is, unlike the speaker in Ex. 3:14.

Jesus said a lot of I AMs of himself. When you examine those I AMs, they are specific in nature and reveal him not to be the same being as the Father but the the Son of God, consistent with Peter's answer. It is not the broad and blank check that Exodus 3:14 is IMO.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/i/1121362245-1218.html

I look forward to exploring those questions and answers with you.

[Cubes]

Quote

13. Did Isaiah write that the voice would prepare the way before YHWH? 14. Was that same voice identified as John the Baptist in the NT? 15. Did John the Baptist prepare the way before Jesus?

13. Yes.
14. Yes.
15. Yes, as Jesus comes in the Father's stead, according to scripture, to declare the Father to us.

A study of Mal 3:1 in association with a lexicon would indicate that Jesus is not YHWH, if YHWH is the LORD of Hosts. I found “to his temple” interesting. 01964 HEYKAL.
It turns out that the phrase is at the discretion of the translators, as it could have easily read “to the Temple of the LORD.” or simply “to the Temple.”

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Luk 1:76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

Thus Jesus is Lord, but John prepared the way of the LORD indirectly by preparing the way of the Lord His only begotten Son, is my understanding.

How do I arrive at this conclusion? Because Jesus is not the Highest(Luke 1:35; and is also the Messenger of the Covenant Mal 3:1, which is consistent with Deut 18:15f and all of scripture).

Moreover the entire prophecy of Zechariah (see next post), differentiates between the two: the Lord God of Israel vs the Horn of Salvation raised up in the House of David whom we also know to be Lord Jesus.

I'll be interested to know what others think so far.

[Cubes]

Another body of scriptural text, another witness to the fact that Jesus is not the same being as GOD, or with equal ranking.

67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:

68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

76 “And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest;
For you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,
77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people
By the remission of their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God,
With which the Dayspring from on high *has visited us;
79 To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death,
To guide our feet into the way of peace.”

80 So the child grew and became strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his manifestation to Israel.

[Anonymous]

As I read it, the prophet of the Highest is John the baptist.

13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

So wouldn't this make the Messiah YHWH the Highest since John is His prophet?

[Author]

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