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Correction: “above every name”
Hi,
Jn 5.19f
” Therefore Jesus answered ,and was saying to them
' Truly ,Truly I say to you, the Son can do nothing of himself, unless it is something he sees the Father doing, for whatever the Father does, these things the Son does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all things that He Himself is doing and the Father will show him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. Just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom he wishes. For not even the Father judges anyone , but He has given all judgement to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him'”
Jn 5.30f
” I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear I judge and my judgement is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me”So the Father is not the Son. The Father sent the Son. The Father teaches the Son. The Son has his own will and nature separate from the Father who loves him. Seems simple enough.
Your principle FYI of scriptural analysis seems to be that “similarity proves identical identity”.Verses about the Father that are similar to those about the son do not ,however, prove the Father is the Son. That statement in itself defies commonsense which is a vital part of wisdom.
When Jesus said in Jn 15 “apart from me you can do nothing”, which is similar to the above verses, you should say we are proven to be Jesus Christ. No so. Neither is the Father also the Son. A father is more similar to his son than others in many ways but they are not the same. Identical twins are extremely similar but not the same.Nick,
I DO NOT CLAIM THE FATHER IS THE SON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Go and read Epistemaniac's post about this utterly ludicrous notion to attach to a trinitarianiasm, NO TRINITARIAN thinks this and I cannot believe you havent grasped this yet. Kindlt stop building straw men, this impresses no one.
You havent answered this:Quote please explain to me how it is that you dont have 2 Gods WIT; your post today sometime.
Quote (Guest @ June 16 2005,20:52) Nick,
He already had the name Yahshua. And just what do the words “above every other” mean to you Nick? It should mean that there is NO HIGHER NAME. Futher, since you appear to accept the common translation of John 1 but reject the trinity concept, please explain to me how it is that you dont have 2 Gods.
Hi DVD,
So your assumption is that this means the Son of God is now given the name Yahweh by Yahweh? You admit there are two beings then? So before this time he was not called Yahweh?That is strange if they were always one substance with one another. So he was not Yahweh all along but became Yahweh at this point in time?Needs more thought DVD.
Besides changing a name does not change a nature or character does it? If I called myself a tree would I grow leaves? If I called myself DVD would I become you and two beings become one? Would I disappear and only you exist?
If you know the bible you would know there are many gods, even spoken of by Jesus Christ. But for us there is one God because we are in His Son who calls the Father his God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 16 2005,21:51) Quote So your assumption is that this means the Son of God is now given the name Yahweh by Yahweh? You admit there are two beings then? So before this time he was not called Yahweh?That is strange if they were always one substance with one another. So he was not Yahweh all along but became Yahweh at this point in time?
Not two beings Nick, two persons. Big diference.Quote If you know the bible you would know there are many gods, even spoken of by Jesus Christ. But for us there is one God because we are in His Son who calls the Father his God.
OK so here lies the crux of the issue. You denied Christs' deity and have assigned him a lower rank than the Father, but in doing so you have lumped him into the same category as HIS CREATION. Cant you see how dangerous this is! You have categorised him as “a god” and therefore impute some kind of indistinction between the Son of God and those He created (Col 1, Joh 1:3, Heb 1:10), and further more these so-called “other “gods” are not exactly spoke of in glowing terms in the Bible so that presents a rather BIG problem I would think. Scripture is clear that we are to serve ONE GOD, but you appear to serve a 'Big God' and a 'little God/god' it appears. WhatIsTrue is right to point this out. He recognises how unbiblical this is and I think his christology represents the logical end point for those who reject the trinity concept and have fully thought through the polytheistic ramifications.Quote (liljon @ June 15 2005,21:29) THE TRINITY IS NOT THREE GODS! Stop repeated that lie that every other anti trin says. Frank I Suggest you see
liljon,There are diverse teachings on the trinity doctrine and I do not espouse to any of them. There are many trinitarians who do teach that the trinity is three Gods. The article was not specifially referring to what it is that you believe the trinity to be. To see that there are various teachings on the trinity, please see my web page: Trinity Links .
I have already been to the http://bible.ca web site and I also do not agree with their trinity doctrine either. I do not even teach a trinity because I believe this is an unsound word in relation to Father Yahweh's word. In his letter to Timothy Shaul stressed that he hold fasts to sound words that he heard from him. (2 Timothy 1:13). Some unsound words that many hold to that I do not hold to are, “trinity”, “deity of Jesus Christ”, “rapture”, “eternal son”, and the diverse omni-… words. These are not Scriptural words, but are merely added words by those who practice to deceive.
Father Yahweh Is Our Heavenly Father And Creator And Yahshua Is His Anointed Son
Nick,
The post that you refered to is not my writing. I believe it is by Voy Wilks. I'm not really sure. I will have to check. I merely copied and pasted it to this forum. I just thought you might find it of interest.
Someone once showed me the passage that you mentioned about “slain from the foundation of the world” to prove that Yahshua pre-existed. It caught me off guard and I thought it was strange that it said that he was slain from the foundation of the world. I thought to myself, “He was not slain from the foundation of the world.” I just assumed that it was a mistranslation or that I was not understanding what was being said. Later I compared diverse translations and found that it was translated differently in other translations. I found that the other translations made much more sense than the A.K.J.V. and harmonized more with the entire context of Scripture. I believe that the translators when translating had to keep in mind to translate in accordance with the entire context of Scripture. As I believe you know, many did not, but were influenced by outside doctrines such as the trinity. Many of the translators of the K. J. were devout trinitarians. They were “Fellows of Trinity” Cambridge University. The book Which Bible lists all the translators of the 1611 K. J. Bible. A few of the “Fellows of Trinity” that translated the K. J. :
Dr. James Overall, John Layfield, William Barlow, William Dakins, John Richardson, Thomas Harrison
All these men were great believers in the trinity doctrine.
I do not believe any of the diverse trinity doctrines, that Yahshua pre-existed, or that he was a co-creator with Father Yahweh from the beginning. I believe that he came into existence when Father Yahweh impregnated Miriam. I do not believe that Yahshua was “eternal son”, but that he is a begotten son. The “eternal son” doctrine is but a mere “private enterpretation” and a doctrine of men and is not Scriptural. I also do not believe the “Mary the mother of God” doctrine. I believe that Merriam was the mother of Yahshua.
Father Yahweh Is Our Heavenly Father And Creator And Yahshua Is His Anointed Son
Frank wut about
John1:1-3
Col 1
Heb 1
and 1 cor 8:6 Allthings were created through him and nothing was made without him.
Jesus said Before Abraham WAS (existenece not position) I am
Plus the whole Gospel of John is full of reference to his pre existence.Quote (Guest @ June 16 2005,22:15) nick wrote:[/quote]
Quote So your assumption is that this means the Son of God is now given the name Yahweh by Yahweh? You admit there are two beings then? So before this time he was not called Yahweh?That is strange if they were always one substance with one another. So he was not Yahweh all along but became Yahweh at this point in time?
Not two beings Nick, two persons. Big diference.Quote If you know the bible you would know there are many gods, even spoken of by Jesus Christ. But for us there is one God because we are in His Son who calls the Father his God.
OK so here lies the crux of the issue. You denied Christs' deity and have assigned him a lower rank than the Father, but in doing so you have lumped him into the same category as HIS CREATION. Cant you see how dangerous this is! You have categorised him as “a god” and therefore impute some kind of indistinction between the Son of God and those He created (Col 1, Joh 1:3, Heb 1:10), and further more these so-called “other “gods” are not exactly spoke of in glowing terms in the Bible so that presents a rather BIG problem I would think. Scripture is clear that we are to serve ONE GOD, but you appear to serve a 'Big God' and a 'little God/god' it appears. WhatIsTrue is right to point this out. He recognises how unbiblical this is and I think his christology represents the logical end point for those who reject the trinity concept and have fully thought through the polytheistic ramifications.
Hi DVD,
What is the difference between a being and a person? You are a being and a person as am I. When is a being not a person? An animal is a being and not a person but all others seem to be both. Does a being have a will? Yes and so does a person. Is a being separate and with independant abilities? Yes and so is a person. Unless you are a conjoined twin where two person share one being I cannot think of any rational being that is not also a person. Please can you clarify this matter?1. You are Nick Hassan the 'person'. There is only one Nick Hassan (disregarding all namesakes, who have unique identities to you)
2. You are a human being. That is the category of 'being' in which you, and others, belong to.
Clear?Click here for further information on beings (I would have though the definition of a 'person' was self explanatory):
wikipediaQuote (Guest @ June 17 2005,03:04) 1. You are Nick Hassan the 'person'. There is only one Nick Hassan (disregarding all namesakes, who have unique identities to you)
2. You are a human being. That is the category of 'being' in which you, and others, belong to.
Clear?Click here for further information on beings (I would have though the definition of a 'person' was self explanatory):
wikipedia
HiDVD,
So a person is an individual but a being is a class only?
That is different.
So God is not a being?
And the Father and Son are individuals and not in any sort of compound unity?WhatIsTrue,
You seemed to have disappeared so didnt bother replying until there was some evidence you were still around.My directly answer to your question is YHWH did not die, Christ, a member of the Godhead, did. Since I believe that YHWH is the name of a triune God, all three agents would have had to have been killed for YHWH to die, and we both know that scripture affirms that “God” cannot die. Man can die however and Jesus was both God and man. So it is reasonable to assume that the human part of Jesus died, not the divine. Since Christ never sinned (how can anyone but God achieve this???) his sinlessness was credited to our account and His death paid for our ransom.
Jesus prophesied that He would be active in raising Himself from death and this power strongly underscores His deity. I know that you personally dont believe His claim, because you've confessed to attributing a lesser weighting to John's Gospel (strangely enough John's has the highest christology). I have to say this attitude strikes me as very 'Jesus seminar-esque'. Anyway let me, at this stage, point to some witnessing scriptures for this claim.
Here are some from John:
Joh 2:19-22
19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21But he spake of the temple of his body. 22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.Joh 10:18
18Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.And here are 2 more from Matthew:
Matthew 26
61And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.Matthew 27
40And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.So it appears that the seemingly blasphemous claim was indeed made and in fact contributed to His crucifixion (from a human perspective).
Anyway, I have directly answered your question as honestly as I can (I dont know if this is the 'correct' trinitarian response or not), and within the boundaries of my low level understanding of this supernatural event.
Jesus
The 'Jesus' at the bottom of my post does not designate the author, it was a typo
Hi DVD,
When you speak of Jesus's deity do you mean he is a separate God or part of God?
Is Godhead the name of the whole God?
an part of God die -or one of the agents or members of God? Did God have a part human aspect which died?
Was the body of Jesus part of God too though the same was never said of Adam who had God for his father too?
Are there three agents or members working as God rather than three persons?
So did he raise himself or as part of God did he raise himself? Do the parts or agents or members of the Godhead work together or independantly?It seems like strange teaching to me.
One writer in these forums said that when you prayed to the trinity it was like going to a company and you never knew which board member you would be dealing with. I am sure you heve better and more clear understanding of these matters than he did. But I think you will get rapped over the knuckles by serious trinitarians for some of your assumptions expressed here in their name.
Jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh
1. Rom. 10:9-13: Note the repeated “for,” which links these verses closely together. The “Lord” of 10:13 must be the “Lord” of 10:9, 12.
2. Phil. 2:9-11. In context, the “name that is above every name” is “Lord” (vs. 11), i.e., Jehovah.
3. Heb. 1:10: Here God the Father addresses the Son as “Lord,” in a quotation from Psa. 102:25 (cf. 102:24, where the person addressed is called “God”). Since here the Father addresses the Son as “Lord,” this cannot be explained away as a text in which a creature addresses Christ as God/Lord in a merely representational sense.
4. 1 Pet. 2:3-4: This verse is nearly an exact quotation of Psa. 34:8a, where “Lord” is Jehovah. From 1 Pet. 2:4-8 it is also clear that “the Lord” in v. 3 is Jesus.
5. 1 Pet. 3:14-15: these verses are a clear reference to Isa. 8:12-13, where the one who is to be regarded as holy is Jehovah.
6. Texts where Jesus is spoken of as the “one Lord” (cf. Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29): 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:5; cf. Rom. 10:12; 1 Cor. 12:5.
Hi FYI,
You are easily convinced by inference rather than scriptural proofs. Jesus is the Son of God. We are told that the time would come when the Master would be denied. You are doing that. By saying Jesus is Yahweh you are saying he is not the Son of God. Without the intermediary of the Son no one can approach God. Do not deny the intermediary FYI.You are also insulting the Father by reducing his glory to only that of His Son. Forget the intellectual fascinations and speculative derivations and fear God FYI is my suggestion for you.
Good question…does Jesus' submission to the Father disprove His deity?
Hi FYI,
Jesus is not a deity. Deities are worshipped. He was not and is not worshipped by us. He is of divine nature but FOR US there is one God and one Lord.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2005,18:26) Hi FYI,
Jesus is not a deity. Deities are worshipped. He was not and is not worshipped by us. He is of divine nature but FOR US there is one God and one Lord.
Nick,You are helping to propagate this:
2 Thessalonians 2:3 – Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
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