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Quote (liljon @ June 15 2005,21:29) THE TRINITY IS NOT THREE GODS! Stop repeated that lie that every other anti trin says. Frank I Suggest you see
Hi liljon,
Well it is and it isn't so you can dance a little twostep with it. If you want you can say each of the three “equal persons” are individual in actions or, if you choose not to you can say they are one God.That is very handy as it enables you to use shadows and mirrors to sidestep any awkward questions and if that fails then you say that nobody understands God anyway.
You will find enormous support and will be able to build libraries with the dissertations of your learned friends. Not only that but you can claim enormous superiority in knowledge because you can see what others cannot.
You can “show” that God was not being completely up front in either the New or the Old Testaments but because of your superior intellect you have been able to derive deeper “truths” about Himself than He was prepared to divulge.
Armed with this amazing new information that you admit is not provable you are able to declare all previous views of God as antiquated and inferior and launch into teaching as gospel what is not.
That is why the question has to be asked is your God the same as our God?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2005,20:56) Hi FYI,
Prov 30.4
“….What is His name or His son's name”
I think we need to look at basics about God here FYI. The bible seems to say God has a son and they have different names. Could your God be a different one to ours?
Yes, We need to see who YHWH is:John 1:1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Philippians 2:6 – who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.
Isaiah 44:6 – Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHWH) of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:24 – Thus saith the LORD (YHWH), thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD (YHWH) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isaiah 47:4 – As for our redeemer, the LORD (YHWH) of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 48:17 – Thus saith the LORD (YHWH), thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD (YHWH) thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
Isaiah 49:7 – Thus saith the LORD (YHWH), the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD (YHWH) that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
Isaiah 49:26 – And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD (YHWH) am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Isaiah 54:5 – For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD (YHWH) of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
2 Corinthians 11:2 – For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Isaiah 54:8 – In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD (YHWH) thy Redeemer.
Isaiah 59:20 – And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD (YHWH).
Isaiah 60:16 – Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD (YHWH) am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Isaiah 63:16 – Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD (YHWH), art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
Jeremiah 50:34 – Their Redeemer is strong; the LORD (YHWH) of hosts is his name: he shall throughly plead their cause, that he may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon.
Isaiah 43:3 – For I am the LORD (YHWH) thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
Isaiah 43:11 – I, even I, am the LORD (YHWH); and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 45:15 – Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
Isaiah 45:21 – Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Isaiah 49:26 – And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Isaiah 60:16 – Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Hosea 13:4 – Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
There is NO Redeemer/Saviour beside YHWH! Period!
Jesus being the Son of God does NOT change the fact that He is YHWH with the Father – They are ONE (ECHAD) YHWH.
So FYI,
You seem to say God does not have a Son but that Son is that God?
So God is not a Father either?You seem to be contradicting what God says about Himself and what His Son said about himself here.
We are sons of God too so are we God too?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2005,22:55) So FYI,
You seem to say God does not have a Son but that Son is that God?
So God is not a Father either?You seem to be contradicting what God says about Himself and what His Son said about himself here.
We are sons of God too so are we God too?
I'm sorry Nick, I don't know where you said that I said:“You seem to say God does not have a Son but that Son is that God?”
Perhaps you can point that out
In fact, this is what I DID say:
“Jesus being the Son of God does NOT change the fact that He is YHWH with the Father – They are ONE (ECHAD) YHWH.”
You must be reading with your eyes closed.
You misunderstand FYI,
When God said
“Thou art My Son. Today I have begotten thee”
what did this mean to you?FYI,
If Jesus is Yahweh to you then it is Yahweh that came in the flesh-am I reading you correctly here?Do you believe man is body, soul and spirit or not?
What of the flesh of Jesus Christ then in your view?
Was it derived solely from God as a new creation with Mary as surrogate mother?
Or was it a normal conception with the ovum of Mary and the seed of God?
Was Jesus Christ like us fully from conception and birth or not?
When the Holy Spirit came down on him at his baptism and empowered him for service to God what changed or did nothing change in your view?DVD seems to have very similar views to you which I have not heard so freely from a trinitarian. Do you agree with him or are you espousing fully the Oneness faith?
Nick,
These are not obscure verses. Paul quotes them and DIRECTLY associates them to Christ – NOT the Father.
Look again:
Rom. 4:8, “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
Psalm 32:2, “How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,
Rom. 9:29, “And just as Isaiah foretold, 'Except the Lord [kurios] of Sabaoth had left to us a posterity. We would have become as Sodom, and would have resembled Gomorrah.”
Isaiah 1:9, “Unless the Lord [YHWH] of hosts Had left us a few survivors, We would be like Sodom, We would be like Gomorrah.”
Rom. 10:13, “for 'Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord [kurios] will be saved.'”
Joel 2:32, “And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord [YHWH] will be delivered,”
Rom. 11:34, “For who has known the mind of the Lord [kurios], or who became His counselor?”
Isaiah 40:13, “Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord [YHWH], Or as His counselor has informed Him?”
Rom. 15:11, “And again, “Praise the Lord [kurios] all you Gentiles, and let all the peoples praise Him.”
Psalm 117:1, “Praise the Lord [YHWH], all nations; Laud Him, all peoples!”
1 Cor. 2:16, “For who has known the mind of the Lord [kurios], that he should instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.”
Isaiah 40:13, “Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord [YHWH], Or as His counselor has informed Him?”
1 Cor. 3:20, “The Lord [kurios] knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless.”
Psalm 94:11, “The Lord [YHWH] knows the thoughts of man, That they are a mere breath.”
1 Cor. 10:26, “for the earth is the Lord’s [kurios], and all it contains.”
Psalm 24:1, “The earth is the LORD’s [YHWH], and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it.”
2 Cor. 10:17, “But he who boasts, let him boast in the Lord [kurios].”
Jer. 9:24, “but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the Lord [YHWH] who exercises lovingkindness, justice, and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things,” declares the Lord [YHWH].”I can answer you nothing if you are unwilling to see the scripture. You have no choice but to see it as it is. All of it.
Christ took on flesh to become the Lamb of God. Christ is YHWH WITH the Father. That is why all of the following scriptures are perfectly inline:
John 1:1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Philippians 2:6 – who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.
Isaiah 44:6 – Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHWH) of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:24 – Thus saith the LORD (YHWH), thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD (YHWH) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isaiah 47:4 – As for our redeemer, the LORD (YHWH) of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 48:17 – Thus saith the LORD (YHWH), thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD (YHWH) thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
Isaiah 49:7 – Thus saith the LORD (YHWH), the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD (YHWH) that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
Isaiah 49:26 – And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD (YHWH) am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Isaiah 54:5 – For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD (YHWH) of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
2 Corinthians 11:2 – For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Isaiah 54:8 – In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD (YHWH) thy Redeemer.
Isaiah 59:20 – And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD (YHWH).
Isaiah 60:16 – Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD (YHWH) am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Isaiah 63:16 – Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD (YHWH), art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
Jeremiah 50:34 – Their Redeemer is strong; the LORD (YHWH) of hosts is his name: he shall throughly plead their cause, that he may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon.
Isaiah 43:3 – For I am the LORD (YHWH) thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
Isaiah 43:11 – I, even I, am the LORD (YHWH); and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 45:15 – Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
Isaiah 45:21 – Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Isaiah 49:26 – And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Isaiah 60:16 – Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Hosea 13:4 – Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
There is NO Redeemer/Saviour beside YHWH! Period!
There is NO discontinuity from the OT thru the NT. Jesus (YHWH – the Word of God pre-incarnate) emptied himself to take upon the form of a servant and be a man forevermore – The Lamb of God that took away our sin.
YHWH alone is our Saviour – there is no other! The scripture is emphatic about that.
Amen FYI!
Phil 2
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
What is that name that is above every name???
That would be YHWH –
The name above all names – YHWH is Salvation – Yeshua
AMEN DVD!
Hi FYI,
I have searched those scriptures and none of them seem to say that “Jesus is YHWH with the Father”.
Perhaps I missed it.You wouldn't have just “derived” that idea would you as that would be adding to scripture?
Joh 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The Word was God Nick.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 16 2005,06:06) Hi FYI,
I have searched those scriptures and none of them seem to say that “Jesus is YHWH with the Father”.
Perhaps I missed it.You wouldn't have just “derived” that idea would you as that would be adding to scripture?
Nick,I must apologize. I said:
“You have no choice but to see it as it is. All of it.”
You do have a choice, and you have exercised it.
Matthew 13:15 – For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (ref. Is 6)
I leave you to your blindness.
Mark 12:29 – And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
1 Corinthians 8:6 – But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Ephesians 4:5 – One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
William Temple states that the lovgo”:
“alike for Jew and Gentile represents the ruling fact of the universe, and represents that fact as the self-expression of God. The Jew will remember that ‘by the Word of the Lord the heavens were made’; the Greek will think of the rational principle of which all natural laws are particular expressions. Both will agree that this Logos is the starting-point of all things.”31
John was using a term which, with various shades of meaning, was in common use everywhere. He could count on all men catching his essential meaning. But for John, the Word was not a principle, but a living Being, the source of life; not a personification, but a Person, and that Person divine.
Note: John never uses the absolute, specific, unrelated term lovgo” outside of the prologue. Elsewhere it is always modified or clarified, and does not occur in the Gospel again in the sense of the lovgo”. Why not? Probably because in the Prologue we are looking at pre-existence. 1:14 becomes the point of transition: the Word is now Jesus of Nazareth. Therefore, he is called Jesus from this point on, no longer oJ lovgo”. Jesus and the lovgo” are an identity; the lovgo” is the pre-existent Christ.
Strictly speaking, I would prefer not to say that John has ‘personified’ the lovgo” because this implies that he borrowed the term from philosophical circles like the Stoics. Perhaps if we could ask John, he would prefer to say the philosophers had (in a sense) ‘de-personalized’ the lovgo” into a rational principle, although he really was a person (the pre-incarnate Christ) all along. That is to say, what the philosophers had grasped about the lovgo” had some elements of truth, but these were only dim and distant reflections of the pre-incarnate Christ himself. There really was a rational principle behind the universe, but until the coming of this lovgo” as Jesus of Nazareth (1:14) there was no way to know anything about him (1:18) except by natural revelation with all its limitations.
Hi,
A word spoken is not also the person speaking it. It goes out from the speaker but is separate from the speaker.Quote (Guest @ June 16 2005,05:33) Phil 2
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
What is that name that is above every name???
Hi,
If a being gives being a name then there are two beings. The first being is greater than the second being if the first gives a name to the second. The first being does not give His own name to the lower being. But the lower being is greater than all other beings in creation and so is his name.Quote (Guest @ June 16 2005,05:41) That would be YHWH – The name above all names – YHWH is Salvation – Yeshua
AMEN DVD!
Nonsense,
The name of Yeshua gives glory to Him who is greater, his Father God.Nick,
He already had the name Yahshua. And just what do the words “above every other” mean to you Nick? It should mean that there is NO HIGHER NAME. Futher, since you appear to accept the common translation of John 1 but reject the trinity concept, please explain to me how it is that you dont have 2 Gods.
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