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Hi ,
Looking at Hebrews 1 makes bible study a real challenge. It is not that it is that different except that it shows us OT quotes that reveal that Jesus is hidden in the OT. He is God's secret and a stumbling block to the jews.
Most of the quotes certainly are easy in retrospect to relate to him though the quote of ps 102 in Heb 1.10 seems unusual.It makes me wonder about others such as Ps 24?
If you search through the OT at the word 'King' most of them clearly relate to the Father.
If you look at 'Lord', which is defined in the NT [1Cor 8]as relating to Yeshua almost all in the OT clearly relate to the Father. I do not know why over 300 are as “Lord of Hosts”. The hosts are the armies of angels in heaven but I cannot understand why that association is so important to God.These hosts surely are under Michael, and the Son of God has authority over him.
Who knows more about these things?John 17:24
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.hi t8,
Lovely words.We know that Jesus came and worked in the name of his Father.
But it also says in the Word that the Father can act in the name of Jesus.
Jn 14 16″ And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another helper, that he may be with you forever, that is the Spirit of truth,..”
Jn 14.26
” But the Helper, the Holy Spirit,
WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND IN MY NAME,
he will teach you all things and bring to remembrance all that I said to you”Jn 15. 26
” When the helper comes ,whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father..”Jn 16.7″ .. for if I do not go away the helper shall not come to you;but if I go I will send him to you..”
Any understanding on this one?
Hi,
Do we worship Yeshua?
The problem is the same greek word for the worship of God also means to show reverence to or to bow down to.
Yeshua is Lord. He has divine nature. He is the Head of the Body and the vine from which the branches grow.
We defer to the Lord and bow humbly before him but that is not the same as worshiping the Father in my view.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2005,02:19) Hi, Do we worship Yeshua?
The problem is the same greek word for the worship of God also means to show reverence to or to bow down to.
Yeshua is Lord. He has divine nature. He is the Head of the Body and the vine from which the branches grow.
We defer to the Lord and bow humbly before him but that is not the same as worshiping the Father in my view.
Yes the problem here is the the Greek word proskyneo is often translated as “worship” and when English speaking readers see this they suppose the text is referring to an action intended to be reserved for God alone as if the word specifically means some kind of divine service. But this is completely incorrect. The original Greek word in question is not loaded with all the ideas contained in our modern English word “worship” and it overtranslates the Greek word proskyneo. The same Greek word is used in the Septuagint (Greek Old Test.) to refer to bowing down to any higher authority such as a King or a Master of an household estate.We bow down (proskyneo) to Jesus because his Father made him Lord over all due to his resurrection exaltation (Mt 28:18; Ac 2:36). There is nothing Biblically unusual about bowing down before a higher authority. There are numerous examples. We are simply servants who humbly bow down before our Lord, God's Son and that is all the word means.
However, there is also absolutely nothing wrong with “worshiping” Jesus in the religious sense of the word. The risen Christ is a divinized human being.
If that is the case, then how is the worship we give to the Father distinct from that we give to our Lord Jesus Christ?
Hi MM,
Are you in a denomination that worships Jesus? Some do.True worship is in the Spirit in our body\temple helped by the Spirit of God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2005,04:08) Hi MM,
Are you in a denomination that worships Jesus? Some do.True worship is in the Spirit in our body\temple helped by the Spirit of God.
So you are saying we should worship the Father in Spirit. Whose Spirit? Jesus' or the Father's?BTW, the only biblical apassage I could where both the Father and Son are in view and worship is being conducted, there is no distinction btwn that given to either.
Rev 5
13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” 14The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.Quote (Guest @ Feb. 22 2005,03:55) If that is the case, then how is the worship we give to the Father distinct from that we give to our Lord Jesus Christ?
It isn't distinct and is not intended to be distinct. God the Father has given all authority to the risen Son.Perhaps you somehow thinking bowing down to God is distinctly different than bowing down to your King. It isn't. It is the same word proskyneo. This word is not a religious idea but a submission to authority.
What is different is another completely different Greek word that is also translated as “worship” in your Bible. This worshipful service is to be rendered only to God through his Son. In other words, this worship is rendered to the Son who is running the show in the name of the Father because the Father has given all authority over to the Son….. for now.
Quote (Guest @ Feb. 22 2005,04:41) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2005,04:08) Hi MM,
Are you in a denomination that worships Jesus? Some do.True worship is in the Spirit in our body\temple helped by the Spirit of God.
So you are saying we should worship the Father in Spirit. Whose Spirit? Jesus' or the Father's?BTW, the only biblical apassage I could where both the Father and Son are in view and worship is being conducted, there is no distinction btwn that given to either.
Rev 5
13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” 14The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Hi MM,I begin by saying that the son of God is worthy of our worship. Doesn't the scriptures say that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord TO THE GLORY OF THE FATHER?
Having said that, I noticed a difference b/n the various glimpses of worship.
a) The Father and Lamb (son) are worshiped by every creature, multitude, nations, tribes, peoples and tongues….
b) At other times, worship from the Living Creatures and Elders, etc seem to be reserved for the Father alone. Regular people are not mentioned here. (Rev 4:8-11, Rev 7:11-12, Rev 11:16-19)
c) Rev 15:1-4 here a special group of people (those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass having harps of God) sing the song of Moses, and the song OF the Lamb, saying:
Rev 15:1-4:
“Great and marveloous are your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are your ways, O King of the saints! (nations)
who shall not fear you, O Lord, and glorify your name?
For you alone are holy.
For all nations shall come and worship before you,
for your judgments have been manifested.”I noticed that the son is worshipped because he alone is worthy to take the scroll and open the seals, and that through his personal and costly sacrifice, redeemed us TO GOD, and has made us kings and priests to OUR GOD… (Rev 5:9-10, 12).
It is the father's will that his son receive such glory and so together, they are glorified. (Rev 5:13). Notice that when David slew Goliath, he received no small measure of glory…I think the song went something like this: Saul has slain his thousands but David has slained his ten thousands or something to that effect. And God did not begrudge David this praise and honor. How much more his son at such a time as that?
******
John 17: And now, O Father, glorify me together with yourself, with the glory which I had with you before the world was.******
This does not nullify the fact that the Son is still begotten of the father, and that he is his father's glory, and would submit to his father in the end that God may be all in all. (1 cor 15, John 17, Rev 21 & 22).
As to the question about who's Spirit? The Spirit which proceeds from the Father of course. I believe it is this spirit that is in Jesus and in those of us that are Christ's.
_
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 20 2005,03:53) Hi ,
Looking at Hebrews 1 makes bible study a real challenge. It is not that it is that different except that it shows us OT quotes that reveal that Jesus is hidden in the OT. He is God's secret and a stumbling block to the jews.
Most of the quotes certainly are easy in retrospect to relate to him though the quote of ps 102 in Heb 1.10 seems unusual.It makes me wonder about others such as Ps 24?
If you search through the OT at the word 'King' most of them clearly relate to the Father.
If you look at 'Lord', which is defined in the NT [1Cor 8]as relating to Yeshua almost all in the OT clearly relate to the Father. I do not know why over 300 are as “Lord of Hosts”. The hosts are the armies of angels in heaven but I cannot understand why that association is so important to God.These hosts surely are under Michael, and the Son of God has authority over him.
Who knows more about these things?
Hi Nick,I happen to be contemplating on the same thoughts today as I studied Zechariah 14, and it seemed to me that the Jews asscociated the Lord of Hosts with God, and/or Yehovah. I then decided to look at Psalm 24.
I have always taken the latter portion of this psalm to mean Christ (Ps 24:7-10) since he will be conquering death, has the keys to hell, etc and that the gates of hell shall not prevail against his church.
And perhaps that is just so. But the study of these things help you see that God is indeed one. Not in three persons, but one. Everything is his idea, his purpose, his mission…and everyone is his servant. He exalted his son above all to spearhead his projects and by him, reconcile all things to himself.
This is why trinitarians get confused, they seem to see that Jesus does the things that are ascribed to God, but fail to wholeheartedly embrace and reconcile themselves to the fact, that Jesus is God's idea and not the other way around. Once they understand this, much will fall into place concerning this self-imposed mystery. Perhaps it is also part of what is meant by “seek ye first the Kingdom of God.” But I love trinitarians and like the Jews of old, they have a zeal for God though they misunderstand him, many through no fault of their own but of the ones who with-hold the truth, especially in these critical times.
The church is Christ's body, but it is the church of God.
Father of Glory (Father)
Lord of glory (Christ)
Glory of the Father/God (Christ)A few people have been considered king of kings (Nebuchadnezzar, Artaxerxes… I guess that's what emperor's are). Jesus is the King over all these kings & emperors, but the Father is his King–if we agree that the Father is the one who is being spoken of in these verses. (1 Tim 6:15-16, Rev 15:4).
Yes cubes,
Lovely stuff. I was brought up catholic and was full on. I lived in fear and confusion in my heart though as only the “experts” seemed to understand things of God and I thought I was supporting God by obeying them. I attended Mass daily and knelt to worship the Communion bread and wine as worshiping Jesus or so I thought. I still love them but I am sad that very very few ever walk free into the light.Hi,
Dan 7.13
” I kept looking in the night visions and behold, with the clouds of heaven,one like the Son of Man was coming, and he came up to the Ancient of days and was presented before Him, and to him was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations,and men of every language might serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which will not pass away and his kingdom is one which will not be destroyed”I love this. It shows ,to me, the triumph of Yeshua after his resurrection coming, in his new heavenly body before his Father to receive praise and glory and to begin his kingdom reign.
It was a vision and a prophecy.
Again another view of the glorified Son of God in Rev 1.13
” and in the middle of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet and girdled across his breast with a golden girdle. And his head and his hair were white like white wool, like snow;and his eyes were like a flame of fire;and his feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been caused to glow in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of many waters.And in his right hand he held several stars;and out of his mouth came a two edged sword;and his face was like the sun shing in full strength”And that BTW, Nick, is one that goes against Modalist theology. I have also heard Trinitarians refer to The Ancient of Days as Christ. Clearly, this is not.
Please pray for me as I study the Greek meanings of words. The word “firstborn” refers not to the first one created or born. In Biblical times the position of firstborn was given to the one who has preeminence or the right to rule as an heir has the right to rule over his predecessors estate. Isaac, who was Abraham's son of promise, or “firstborn”, but having been born after Ishmail, not literally his first son born.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2005,23:21) Bless you roberts,
Yes both meanings are possible.
Yes both are possible, but I think its important to determine the correct meaning bc it will tell us whether Jesus is eternal. If he was begotten (i.e. born) in time then he cannot be eternal.Hi MM,
We are told Yeshua was begotten “in the beginning” That is before there was any measure such as time as a study of Genesis shows.“Eternal” does not mean has no beginning necessarily. It may only mean from the beginning of time or even from today.If I say your memory will last for eternity it does not imply you were born before time does it?
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