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T8,
Quote Even if the prophecy was fulfilled in OT times, Matthew still could have pointed to that prophecy not as a fulfillment but a pattern. So that he could have been saying “just as the Lord did then, so he did now”. When Matthew quoted the scripture, did he actually say that it was a fulfillment? Matthew 1:
22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:23″The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” –which means, “God with us.”This is clearly meant to represent the fulfillment of prophecy. The fact that you are not even sure in your own mind that it is meant to be a literal prophecy confirms for me that there is a great deal of confusion surrounding this passage of scripture. Since I firmly believe that God is not the author of confusion, it raises questions for me about the true authorship of these words, (and subsequently the virgin birth doctrine that it seeks to champion).
Psalm 22 is one of my favorite psalms, as it speaks so beautifully from OT times about the Messiah of the NT. It is clearly Messianic when read after the events of Yeshua's life, in my opinion. There is nothing anachronistic about it, nor anything that confines its meaning to any specific time. The same is not true of the prophecy found in Isaiah 7. It speaks of local events, and to local people, and gives a specific time frame for fulfillment, (i.e. within a few years of the birth of the prophecied child). However, if you feel like the two passages are equally ambiguous, I can not argue with your understanding of God's word.
Any thoughts on the Magi?
Nick,
Revelations is a book of symbolism. The imagery in chapter 12 is no exception. It is not describing the literal events of the stars in the sky, (nor is it suggesting that a woman will literally stand on the moon and be clothed with the sun). It is an enigmatic vision of things that have occurred, and things to come. I do not see it as a confirmation that practicing astrology is in any way scriptural.
Quote The discovery of God's will in the OT often involved the use of the Thummin and Urim-rather like tossing dice, and the selction of the replacement apostle was done, not by democratic choice but drawing straws and there are scriptures in Prverbs to support this. “Casting lots” is, indeed, a common biblical practice, and it is never condemned. However, astrology, (or stargazing, as Isaiah puts it), is strongly condemend in Isaiah 47. I can not see why God would then choose to honor it so prominently at the birth of His Annointed.
Hi wit,
That is your opinion I assume. But don't rush to judgement on “signs”. What was the purpose for the creation of stars by God?
Gen 1.14
” Then God said 'Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be FOR SIGNS and for seasons ,and for days and for years”
They were created by God specifically as “signs” at the beginning of time.And Jesus said in Lk 21″ And there will be SIGNS in sun and moon and STARS,..”Are you suggecting this verse does not have real meaning too?
So the word “signs” has meaning when found in Revelation 12 [and 15].
We should use the tools God provides to help decipher this book full of symbolism.
” And a great SIGN appeared in heaven..”
” And I saw another SIGN in heaven..”Stargazing using occult means and outside of God's Word is Pagan. But as usual there is a true thing and a false demonic substitute.
Nick,
If you find that astrology can be perfectly scriptural, then I will not argue your understanding of scripture. However, I disagree with that understanding. In my opinion, God made the sun, moon, and stars as a testament to His glory and power – (as powerful objects under His control in creation) – not as a means for us to try and foretell the future. I am open to evidence to the contrary, but what you have presented thus far seems ambiguous at best. It is interesting to note, however, that the prominent pagan religions of that day were all very comfortable with astrology as a means for prophecy.
Sure WIT,
But what about those scriptures? How can you interpret them in another way? What is wrong with God using other means or is it just our prejudice against what is called astrology?psTbhe last poet applies to colour and many other colours have implications. The use of signs is well covered in the Watchman site of Greg Killian.
If 'Astro' ology is the study of the stars, then I would think that there is nothing wrong with it in itself. Just as cosmology is OK. But I think it depends on the heart. Some use the study of the stars in the place of revelation and communication with God. These people are in danger of worshipping the creation or putting the creation before the creator.
Romans 1:25
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised. Amen.But we are specifically told that the stars and the moon are there at least for signs especially in the endtimes.
Luke 21:25
“There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.If we are one with God, then the stars are one way that God speaks to us. If we do not know God, but use the stars to plot the future, then we do this for our own gain, but not eternal gain.
Revelation 11:18
The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great– and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”So if God destroys those who destroy the earth, then will he save those who save the earth? No, he saves those whom he knows and those whom he has mercy on.
God's creation factors into true faith. But those without faith will not be saved by their understanding or misunderstanding of God's creation.
It must also be pointed out that those who know about the stars and constellations can also lie about their meaning. Many also use this understanding to make money, so money is the motivation. Then they give you your future a very specific future such as you will do this or that. This practice in my opinion is rediculous. The universe is complex but it runs it's course and is governed by God's laws. But free will can change our lives at the flick of a decision. The stars do not know what we will choose in life and our lives are not playing out some cosmic sequence that is dictated by the stars.
But the stars are signs for us and they are significant.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Nov. 23 2004,15:43) Matthew 1:
22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:23″The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” –which means, “God with us.”
To WhatIsTrue,Then I can only assume that the prophecy was given for a certain natural event, but concealed a spirtual truth, that God would send one born of a virgin who's name is Emanual. It could be construed as incorrect if viewed through our culture of fast information, facts and figures. But I often see a pattern in scripture with the physical first and the spirtual next. This pattern is not the norm with other writings I have read.
When I quoted Psalm 22, I was showing the physical or the fulfilment, which appears to be the way David felt. So the scripture appears to be talking about David's feelings. But it also served as a prophecy for the messiah which also seems strange if we compare that to other writings.
If the event (virgin birth) being concealed and then revealed is not correct, then what other possibilities are there?
If the doctrine were not true but was inserted into scripture, then 3 scriptures were added in. I haven't heard any evidence anywhere about this.
T8,
Quote If the doctrine were not true but was inserted into scripture, then 3 scriptures were added in. I haven't heard any evidence anywhere about this. Excellent point. I have no answer to this, as I am still searching to piece together exactly what is going on with the virgin birth doctrine and the virgin birth accounts.
Again, I will not quibble with your understanding of scripture. We obviously see things differently.
Nick,
The following are quotes from the website you suggested:
Quote There is a discussion in the Talmud about whether or not a Jew is subject to mazel, that is, destiny (Shabbos 156a). We believe that, for the most part, events are predetermined as part of a master plan for creation. Within the stars is encoded six thousand years of history, and a true astrologer can peek into the stars and foretell the future, as Avraham did when he told G-d that he saw that he was to remain childless (through his wife Sarah; Hagar bore Yishmael for him).
However, G-d told Avraham that he was not necessarily correct, for, he could by choice rise above his mazel, and beat his destiny, so-to-speak. And as history and the Chumash testifies, Avraham did precisely that with the birth of his son Yitzchak, something, apparently, he could only achieve AFTER he had performed brit milah (first he was commanded to perform brit milah, and after Yitzchak was conceived).
Hence, brit milah is far more than an initiation rite into Judaism; it is a mystical door through which the Jewish nation passes on the way to freedom from nature.Quote One of the most important applications of Judaic Astrology is in the correct understanding of the Jewish holidays. Under this doctrine, we learn that the holidays are actually effects from the cosmos. For example, the holiday of Passover occurred with the positive assistance of the celestial realm. Celebrating Passover every year is NOT because of tradition, commemoration of an event that occurred some odd years ago, or to pay our respects. Rather, every year when the earth hits that point on its revolution path around the sun, an opening is created.
This opening allows us to connect to this fulfilling ENERGY or spiritual Light of Passover that is available only on that day. Therefore, with the proper tools and with the proper “kavannah” (thought consciousness), every generation, whatever time frame they find themselves in, is capable of re-creating their own Passover. This holds true not only for Passover, but also for Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, Purim, Chanukah, and every other Jewish holiday.Is this a good example of God-ordained astrology, or did you have something else in mind?
Nick and T8,
Quote That is your opinion I assume. But don't rush to judgement on “signs”. What was the purpose for the creation of stars by God?
Gen 1.14
” Then God said 'Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be FOR SIGNS and for seasons ,and for days and for years”
They were created by God specifically as “signs” at the beginning of time.Quote But we are specifically told that the stars and the moon are there at least for signs especially in the endtimes. Luke 21:25
“There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.When I think of God-given signs I think of the following:
Genesis 9:
11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”
12 And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: 13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth.It is something that signifies God's word or will. It is not something that we can use to gain knowledge from. Just as the rainbow is a sign of God's promise not to flood the earth again, the sun, moon, and stars are signs of God's power in creation. (There are several other verses that bear out this meaning of the word “sign”.)
As for the Luke 21 verse that you quote, you should take note of the verse in context.
Luke 21:
25There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.It is talking about the “heavenly bodies” being shaken in such a way as to cause the tides of the sea to become so violent that men will fear for their lives. (I assume that you are familiar with the science of tides and how they are directly affected by the moon, first and foremost, but also by the general orientation of the earth within the “heavenly bodies”.) This has nothing to do with astrology, and everything to do with the other kinds of endtime calamities described in this passage, including wars, great earthquakes, famines and pestilences. I see no evidence that Yeshua is telling us to anticipate the endtimes by studying the alignment of the stars. However, if that is what you see in this passage, then we must simply agree to disagree.
Good points Whatistrue and good post,
I appreciate the trouble you have gone to to check out the site. It is a huge a complex site and I had not read the parts you had quoted. I read it all there with a grain of salt and do find some of it frankly heretical. He is a jew who accepts the New Testament but he believes that it adds to salvation through the Law.
I have had long and ardent arguments with him to try to show him the NT surpasses the OT but he quotes the fact that Jesus told people to obey the commandments not realising that what Jesus said was to two distinct groups of listeners.
He spoke to those following him but also to those still blindly clinging to the OT and you have to separate these sayings into those 2 groups
For example the rich young man asked what he must DO to INHERIT the kingdom. He got the answer that question deserved but if he had asked the right question he would have been told he must be born again.
He also does an heretical analysis of Hebrews that is distorted to try and show it was all about following the Talmud or Law.I have used the site to gain insight into the incredible depth of knowledge the jews have acquired by deep study of the OT especially the prophetic value of the Jewish feasts-which will be reinstituted in the Millenium.His observation about an astral alignment in the late 1990s about Rev12 deserves a closer look too, I believe.
Yes the rainbow was given as a sign in the heavens. Yes the moon affects our tides and the sun can have a disastrous effect on our planet but I struggle to see how the stars can in the Lk 21 scripture.Mt 2.1f” After Jesus's birth in Bethlehem of Judea during the reign of King Herod, astrologers from the East arrived one day in Jerusalem inquiring 'Where is the newborn King of the Jews? We observed his star at it's rising and have come to pay him homage”..
” Herod called the astrologers aside and found out from them the exact time of the star's appearance”..
..”After the audience with the king they set out. The star ,which they had observed at it's rising went ahead of the,m until it came to a standstill over the place where the child was.They were overjoyed at seeing the star and on entering the house found the child with Mary ,his mother. They prostrated themselves and did him homage. Then they opened their gifts and presented him with gifts of gold, and frankincense and myrhh. They received a message in a dream not to return to Herod , so they went back to their own country by another route”This too is scripture. Where is the divine rebuke in these words as it was a great opportunity to show it? They were not completely right but they knew it was a king born. They were advised by a message from God in a dream. I see God allowing other means to find His purposes to those who do not have the best resources showing His love and mercy towards all. Lets face it none of those who had those best resources found the Lord.
I do not see God advocating these practices apart from scripture study either and the views shown in your post are not mine.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Nov. 24 2004,13:19) Again, I will not quibble with your understanding of scripture. We obviously see things differently.
You know I would change my mind if I was presented with irrefutable proof or even something that was compelling enough to make the original pale in comparision.What is your thinking that differs from mine?
Hi WIT,
You have not addressed the question I asked about the scriptures and signs and how else they can be interpreted ,esp the one in Genesis?
I firmly believe that we should stick closely to scripture when we discuss any of these matters and be prepared to give scriptural eveidence for any claims if challenged. Logic and reason are fine as long as we remember that what we talk about was revealed in the Word and is subject to the Word .If we stray too far into opinion without evidence we can lose touch with our Master who proved every step of his path from the Word.
Also the last thing we should ever do is prefer our understandings to what is revealed. Yes there are some false scriptures but God looks after his Word. Yes there are some bad interpretations but they can be proved. But there is no need for wholesale suspicion or conspiracy theories. Usually the lack is found in us and not the scriptures.
I do not say this just to you but to address what seems to be a loss of faith evident in the NT by many contributors but it is our lifeboat and is much preferable to trying to swim in our own understanding alone surely?T8,
Quote You know I would change my mind if I was presented with irrefutable proof or even something that was compelling enough to make the original pale in comparision. What is your thinking that differs from mine?
I don't have any irrefutable proof for you. I am still searching myself.
As to our differences concerning scripture, I don't see how the Isaiah 7 prophecy connects in anyway to the birth of the Messiah. You apparently do. I also don't see Psalm 22 in the same light as the Isaiah prophecy. I think that Psalm 22's meaning is clear in light of Yeshua's life, whereas the Isaiah prophecy seems to relate to the Messiah only ambiguously at best, even with the advantage of hindsight. You have said that both passages are similar in that they both represent the pattern of the physical meaning preceding the spiritual. I simply disagree.
Nick,
Quote Yes the rainbow was given as a sign in the heavens. Yes the moon affects our tides and the sun can have a disastrous effect on our planet but I struggle to see how the stars can in the Lk 21 scripture. As I said previously, we will simply have to disagree on this passage. You see it one way, and I see it another. I would, however, suggest that if the heavenly bodies are to shake in some form or another, the stars would be included in that shaking.
Quote Mt 2.1f” After Jesus's birth in Bethlehem of Judea during the reign of King Herod, astrologers from the East arrived one day in Jerusalem inquiring 'Where is the newborn King of the Jews? We observed his star at it's rising and have come to pay him homage”..
” Herod called the astrologers aside and found out from them the exact time of the star's appearance”..
..”After the audience with the king they set out. The star ,which they had observed at it's rising went ahead of the,m until it came to a standstill over the place where the child was.They were overjoyed at seeing the star and on entering the house found the child with Mary ,his mother. They prostrated themselves and did him homage. Then they opened their gifts and presented him with gifts of gold, and frankincense and myrhh. They received a message in a dream not to return to Herod , so they went back to their own country by another route”This too is scripture. Where is the divine rebuke in these words as it was a great opportunity to show it? They were not completely right but they knew it was a king born. They were advised by a message from God in a dream. I see God allowing other means to find His purposes to those who do not have the best resources showing His love and mercy towards all. Lets face it none of those who had those best resources found the Lord.
My original purpose in writing about the Magi, and the star in the east that they followed, was to point out that there seems to be some pagan elements inserted into the birth story of the Messiah. I see the entire passage quoted above as suspect. However, as T8 has pointed out, I am apparently on my own in this opinion. Obviously, if these truly are inspired words, then astrology has at least one clear biblical endorsement. I just find it hard to believe that this is so, but I respect your reverence for the written word of God.
Nick,
Quote Hi WIT,
You have not addressed the question I asked about the scriptures and signs and how else they can be interpreted ,esp the one in Genesis?I wrote the following to address all the scriptures you listed.
Quote When I think of God-given signs I think of the following: Genesis 9:
11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.”
12 And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: 13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth.It is something that signifies God's word or will. It is not something that we can use to gain knowledge from. Just as the rainbow is a sign of God's promise not to flood the earth again, the sun, moon, and stars are signs of God's power in creation. (There are several other verses that bear out this meaning of the word “sign”.)
The Genesis verse you quote is best explained by another translation:
“And God said, 'Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years…”
Well wit,
8 out of 17 gospelnet interpretations would agree with you but I would like to check the manuscripts. Our faith rests on the foundations laid by Moses and the prophets, Jesus and the apostles and faithfully recorded for our benefit.
“A wise man digs deep and builds his foundation on rock and that rock is my teachings”
We do not even follow Paul, or Peter or Apollos but the Word of God.
Keep seeking but do not be quick to discard what we cannot at first understand is all I would say.Quote (SearchingForTheTruth @ April 13 2003,01:34) Hello,
T8 I enjoy the discussion group and for bringing some questions into light concerning the trinity. Ramblinrose, I also appreciate your posts for you have also done a very thorough study. I have to say that I am in agreement that there is one GOD, the father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. I do have some questions concerning Jesus and I would like to have some feedback or a discussion concerning the following questions:Was Christ born before creation?
Was Christ Eternal?
Was Jesus Divine or Human?Was Christ Eternal?
Hello there. Peace of Christ.>>>>>Hello,
T8 I enjoy the discussion group and for bringing some questions into light concerning the trinity. Ramblinrose, I also appreciate your posts for you have also done a very thorough study. I have to say that I am in agreement that there is one GOD, the father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. I do have some questions concerning Jesus and I would like to have some feedback or a discussion concerning the following questions:Was Christ born before creation? No…The One who is call Jesus Before the Creation is the Only God, the God of the bible…the Holy Spirit…God is Spirit John 4:24, He is Holy 1 Peter 2:16…There is ONE Spirit Ephesians 4:4 The Lord is the Spirit 2 Cor 3:17…He is God of all Spirits of all flesh Numbers 27:16; Jere. 32:27; Father of all spirits of all flesh Heb. 12:9
Dont we have but One God and Father of all?…Malachi 2:10…..See! This Holy Spirit in His Spiritual Form is the Father, and in His Human form is the Son…Due to His OMNIPRESENCE He can proyect out of Himself and be anywhere yet still He is where He is…Like a t.v. program..one tape can be seen in millions homes…So the Holy Spirit who is the God of the bible a.k the Father, Namely Jesus…Became flesh..and was called the Son, Namely Jesus..He keept His Own Name..Read John 17:11..
Liisten i have lots of articles about the Onesess of God if you are interested let me know and i will share them with you..Solom said in 1 Kings 8:27 But will God (The Holy Spirit a.k the Father) dwell on earth?…Yes! said Isaiah..35:4; 43:10-11 = Matthew 1:20-24..IMMANUEL “God is with us” Not the Son of God is with us…God Himself..the father..1 Cor 8:6 Paul says..but to us there is but ONE God..the Father, then this Father becames a human 1 Timohty 3:16 God was manifested inthe flesh…Jesus condemn with no forgivness this…Because if you do not believe that I AM HE? You will die in your sins John 8:24…See!Jesus didn't say if you do not believe that I AM ME..but He said if you do not believe that “I AM HE” )I AM HE was atitle for YHWH in the Old testament read Deut. 32:39…I am He and there is no OTHER GOD WITH ME, BY ME…So no trinity, no son..Just Himself…Once you understand the OMNIPRESENCE of God you will see everything clear, most people do not understand it..specially trinitarians, the trinity was made in Rome by Quintus Septimus Florens Tertullianus a.k. Tertullian, and the “Eternal Son of God” by Justin Martir, you will never find an eternal Son in the bible, nor god the Son, but the Son of God..Son of God was a title given to the Father for being in the flesh an having come out of Himself…
>>>Was Christ Eternal?<<<<<<Yeah! He is the God of the bible..He is Jesus…Jesus is the Father the Spirit and Christ is the Son the flesh of the Father…
Read 1 John 5:1 He who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God…That is what Jesus said in John 8:24..If you do not believe that I AM HE you will die in your sins, that is what a trinitarian is hell's bound..because he/she are the antichrists..2 John 6-10…
Was Jesus Divine or Human?Was Christ Eternal?…The Holy Spiirit is the Only One Eternal..the Son stared when He was born of Mary..Read Gal. 4:4…
God bless…………………….Brother James
Hi BJ,
Jesus was obedient unto death. Who was he obedient to?
“Not my will but thine be done” has no meaning if they are the same person.
How could God be his own son?
The Son was sent by the Father -was he sent by himself? At the end of time Jesus hands the kingdom over to the Father-does he give it to himself?
Jesus said the Father is greater than I-how can that be if they are the same person?Hi James,
The Logos was in the beginning with God. Also God created all things through the son.
Again, Jesus said before Abraham “I am”. So Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham.
But how does your doctrine and gospel compare to 1 John 4:2
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,By saying that the Father came in the flesh could only lead one to deny that Jesus came in the flesh. If Oneness Doctrine were true, then 1 John 4:2 would mean that we have to believe that the Father who came in the Flesh (Jesus as they say) then came in the flesh. So he has 2 layers of flesh according to that interpretation.
John also said the following in John 20:31:
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.And the Eunuch said the following after acceptance of the gospel and just before he was baptized into Christ:
Acts 8:36
As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?”[ 8:36 Some late manuscripts baptized?” 37 Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” The eunuch answered, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”Your gospel that says that Jesus is the Father, is another gospel.
Even the Father declared the following:
Matthew 3:17
And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”To confirm this truth, I offer you the declaration of Peter that Jesus built his church on
Matthew 16
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ,[1] the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.Again the gospel that you preach that says that the Father came in the flesh is a different gospel. It was Jesus who came in the flesh. Please think about your teaching. You are responsible for all who you convert to that teaching.
Hi, Is 9.5
” For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given,and the government shall be upon his shoulder and his name shall be called wonderful counsellor ,the mighty god, the EVERLASTING FATHER and the Prince of Peace is he”
This description of Jesus mystified me. We know we become children of the Father when we are born again. In the same way we become brothers of Jesus as Hebrews2 tells us. But how can Jesus be a father? Fathers in the natural world have children and Jesus did not. He sacrificed his life in every way.
Mk 10.29
” I give you my word, there is no one who has given up home or brothers or sisters ,mother or father, CHILDREN or property for me and for the gospel who will not receive in this present age a hundred times as many homes, brothers, sisters ,mothers, CHILDREN and property-and persecution besides-and in the age to come ,eternal life”Hebrews 2.13 about Jesus
” Here am I with the CHILDREN God has given me”
Jesus addressed his followers as children in Mk 10.Jn 13 and 21.
Paul too also addressed the Galatians as his children.So yes Jesus is an everlasting father.
Hi VC,
Eph 1.11
” In him we were chosen;for in the decree of God who administers everything according to His will and counsel, we were predestined to praise His glory by being the first to hope in Christ. In him you too were chosen;when you heard the glad tidings of salvation, the word of truth, and believed in it, and you were sealed with the Holy Spirit who had been promised”
” Many are called but few are chosen”
We all have free will. We too have to choose salvation. We prove that we are among the predestined children of God by making that choice.Heb 2.12f
” He who consecrates and he who is consecrated have the same Father. Therefore he is not ashamed to call them brothers saying
'I will announce your name to my brothers, I will sing your praise in the midst of the assembly'
and
'I will put my trust in him'
and again
' Here am I, and the children God has given me?”So we are both children of Jesus, as we follow him, and children of God and brothers of Jesus in our relationship to the Father. Likewise some were called children of Paul but were brothers of Paul in relationship to the Father.
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