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That “by him” is a poor translation is readily testified by reliable scholars. Take J.H. Moulton: “for because of him [Jesus/Yeshua HaMoshiach]. . .”; or the Expositor's Greek Commentary: “en auto: This does not mean “by Him””.
It should be noted, as a general point, that G-d the Father alone, exclusively, is described as the creator in many passages (e.g. Is. 44:24; Is. 45:12; Is. 48:13; Is. 66:2). These passages simply leave no room for the Son to have also created the literal planet.
James Dunn comments on Col. 1:20: “Christ/Yeshua HaMoshiach is being identified here not with a pre-existent being but with the creative power and action of G-d. . . There is no indication that Jesus/Yeshua HaMoshiach thought or spoke of himself as having pre-existed with G-d prior to his birth”. Christology In The Making p.254.
Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 22 2009,23:45) May I give my opinion? Jesus was the first thing created by God. (Col.1:15-16) …15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him (Jesus) is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him (God).Notice “first born of every creature”.
Another scripture. Rev.3:14 …14 “And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:
Notice “and God's Creative Original”. If something, or in this case, someone, is an “original” means the first of many.
His (Jesus) purpose of God was …9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He (God) purposed in Him (Jesus),
10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth —Here we have God saying, “to head up all in the Christ”, Meaning Jesus is the creator (through the power of God) and head of all things until the consummation.
He, Jesus, is the “Alpha and the Omega”, the first and the last, meaning He was the first thing created, and will be the ruler over all creation until the 'Consummation'. This is described in 1Cor.15:24-28 …24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)Notice that when all is completed (the 'consummation'), He (Jesus) will hand over the Kingdom to His God and Father.
I hope I have presented this clear enough to make my view of scripture understood.
God Bless, Jerry.
Quote Another scripture. Rev.3:14 …14 “And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original: Notice “and God's Creative Original”. If something, or in this case, someone, is an “original” means the first of many.
Or it is a position or a title.
KJV – And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of G-d;
NKJV – “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans* write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of G-d:
Footnote: * NU-Text and M-Text read in Laodicea.NLT – “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen–the faithful and true witness, the ruler* of G-d's creation:
Footnote: * Or the source.NIV – “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of G-d's creation.
YNG – `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness –the faithful and true — the chief of the creation of G-d;
HNV – “To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: “The Amein, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of G-d's creation, says these things:
VUL – et angelo Laodiciae ecclesiae scribe haec dicit Amen testis fidelis et verus qui est principium creaturae Dei
right and is but if I want Him to stay Ive got to clean myself up sweep out my temple He wont live in an unclean temple
Hi JN,
If He comes He offers grace to supply all your needs in Christ Jesus.
He does not want us to live in helpless self condemnation.Hi JN,
Seek forgiveness and freedom through repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus.
Men wash only the outside of the cup but the blood of Jesus can wash the inside too.Constitutionalist
Genesis3:22 …And saying is Ieue Alueim, “Behold! The human becomes as one of us, knowing good and evil. And now, lest he stretch forth his hand, moreover, and take of the tree of the living, and eat and live for the eon-!Notice “Behold! The human becomes as one of us, knowing good and evil”. Who was God speaking of when He said 'us'? His creative original, Jesus.
Blessings.
Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 23 2009,18:45) May I give my opinion? Jesus was the first thing created by God. (Col.1:15-16) …15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him (Jesus) is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him (God).God Bless, Jerry.
Hi Chosenone,The Subject is in verse 12, The Father.
Col 1:12-16 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers
of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption
through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature: For by him(The Father) were all things created,
that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones,
or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:Jesus did not create his Father, nor his father's throne.
Your way of looking at scripture does not add up?God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Ed J,
I don't believe I ever said or quoted that Jesus created his Father or His throne. In brief, I've said that God (Father) is eternal, always existed. And His Son Jesus was His first creation, and all else was created through Jesus by the power of God (Father).
I think if you read it again you would agree that is what I posted, at least that is what I intended it should read.Blessings.
Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 24 2009,17:15) Hi Ed J,
I don't believe I ever said or quoted that Jesus created his Father or His throne. In brief, I've said that God (Father) is eternal, always existed. And His Son Jesus was His first creation, and all else was created through Jesus by the power of God (Father).
I think if you read it again you would agree that is what I posted, at least that is what I intended it should read.Blessings.
Hi Chosenone,I simply pointed out Colossians 1:12-16 refers to The Father rather than Jesus as The Creator.
To infer Jesus does not make sense, look at my post to see why.
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Dec. 24 2009,17:27) Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 24 2009,17:15) Hi Ed J,
I don't believe I ever said or quoted that Jesus created his Father or His throne. In brief, I've said that God (Father) is eternal, always existed. And His Son Jesus was His first creation, and all else was created through Jesus by the power of God (Father).
I think if you read it again you would agree that is what I posted, at least that is what I intended it should read.Blessings.
Hi Chosenone,I simply pointed out Colossians 1:12-16 refers to The Father rather than Jesus as The Creator.
To infer Jesus does not make sense, look at my post to see why.
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J.
This is a copy of my post we are reffering to, I believe?May I give my opinion?
Jesus was the first thing created by God. (Col.1:15-16) …15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him (Jesus) is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him (God).I'm not sure where you think I have used the name Jesus instead of God. Please point this out to me. Thanks.
Blessings.
Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 24 2009,17:42) Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 24 2009,17:27) Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 24 2009,17:15) Hi Ed J,
I don't believe I ever said or quoted that Jesus created his Father or His throne. In brief, I've said that God (Father) is eternal, always existed. And His Son Jesus was His first creation, and all else was created through Jesus by the power of God (Father).
I think if you read it again you would agree that is what I posted, at least that is what I intended it should read.Blessings.
Hi Chosenone,I simply pointed out Colossians 1:12-16 refers to The Father rather than Jesus as The Creator.
To infer Jesus does not make sense, look at my post to see why.
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J.
This is a copy of my post we are reffering to, I believe?May I give my opinion?
Jesus was the first thing created by God. (Col.1:15-16) …15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him (Jesus) is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him (God).I'm not sure where you think I have used the name Jesus instead of God. Please point this out to me. Thanks.
Blessings.
Hi Chosenone,In Colossians 1:12-16 the Subject is “The Father” back in verse 12.
In verse 16 it cannot be Jesus as you have inserted, because Jesus did not create his own father nor his fathers throne.
My post 4 up, illustrates this point.
God bless,
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Dec. 24 2009,17:50) Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 24 2009,17:42) Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 24 2009,17:27) Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 24 2009,17:15) Hi Ed J,
I don't believe I ever said or quoted that Jesus created his Father or His throne. In brief, I've said that God (Father) is eternal, always existed. And His Son Jesus was His first creation, and all else was created through Jesus by the power of God (Father).
I think if you read it again you would agree that is what I posted, at least that is what I intended it should read.Blessings.
Hi Chosenone,I simply pointed out Colossians 1:12-16 refers to The Father rather than Jesus as The Creator.
To infer Jesus does not make sense, look at my post to see why.
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J.
This is a copy of my post we are reffering to, I believe?May I give my opinion?
Jesus was the first thing created by God. (Col.1:15-16) …15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him (Jesus) is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him (God).I'm not sure where you think I have used the name Jesus instead of God. Please point this out to me. Thanks.
Blessings.
Hi Chosenone,In Colossians 1:12-16 the Subject is “The Father” back in verse 12.
In verse 16 it cannot be Jesus as you have inserted, because Jesus did not create his own father nor his fathers throne.
My post 4 up, illustrates this point.
God bless,
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed J.I'll copy and paste from the “Concordant Literal New Testament”, which I use almost exclusively. I include verses 15 & 16 in Col.1
15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,Notice “the image of the invisable God” which I am sure you will agree refers to Jesus.
Maybe we use different versions of the bible, which is why we are differing in meaning.
Blessings.
PS. I havn't figured out yet how to change Chosenone to ChosenOne, a good suggestion of yours.
Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 24 2009,18:05) Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 24 2009,17:50) Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 24 2009,17:42) Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 24 2009,17:27) Quote (chosenone @ Dec. 24 2009,17:15) Hi Ed J,
I don't believe I ever said or quoted that Jesus created his Father or His throne. In brief, I've said that God (Father) is eternal, always existed. And His Son Jesus was His first creation, and all else was created through Jesus by the power of God (Father).
I think if you read it again you would agree that is what I posted, at least that is what I intended it should read.Blessings.
Hi Chosenone,I simply pointed out Colossians 1:12-16 refers to The Father rather than Jesus as The Creator.
To infer Jesus does not make sense, look at my post to see why.
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J.
This is a copy of my post we are reffering to, I believe?May I give my opinion?
Jesus was the first thing created by God. (Col.1:15-16) …15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him (Jesus) is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him (Jesus) and for Him (God).I'm not sure where you think I have used the name Jesus instead of God. Please point this out to me. Thanks.
Blessings.
Hi Chosenone,In Colossians 1:12-16 the Subject is “The Father” back in verse 12.
In verse 16 it cannot be Jesus as you have inserted, because Jesus did not create his own father nor his fathers throne.
My post 4 up, illustrates this point.
God bless,
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed J.I'll copy and paste from the “Concordant Literal New Testament”, which I use almost exclusively. I include verses 15 & 16 in Col.1
15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,Notice “the image of the invisable God” which I am sure you will agree refers to Jesus.
Maybe we use different versions of the bible, which is why we are differing in meaning.
Blessings.
PS. I havn't figured out yet how to change Chosenone to ChosenOne, a good suggestion of yours.
Hi ChosenOne,Col.1:16for in Him (The Father) is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones,
Can you not see that this way makes sense, while the other does NOT.
Jesus could not have created his Father nor his father's throne?
Ed J
hi EDj
read it again;Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:for by him(the son)were all things created;
you denied the first verses were Paul clearly shows that he talks about the Son ,after verse col 1-12
this view his consistente with the intire scriptures no dought.
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 25 2009,00:52) hi EDj
read it again;Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:for by him(the son)were all things created;
you denied the first verses were Paul clearly shows that he talks about the Son ,after verse col 1-12
this view his consistente with the intire scriptures no dought.
Hi Terraricca,The Subject is in verse 12, The Father.
Col 1:12-16 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers
of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption
through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature: For by him(The Father) were all things created,
that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones,
or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:Jesus did not create his Father, nor his father's throne.
Your way of looking at scripture does not add up?
You are just glazing over my point.
If you disagree with my point then explain it differently.
To just repeat the status quo, resolves nothing!God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgThere is a direct statement about Yeshua HaMoshiach [Jesus] being the Son of Yahovah in the Psalms: “…He said to me, 'You [Yeshua HaMoshiach/Jesus] are my son, today I [Yahovah] have begotten you.” Psalm 2:7
There were plans, from the beginning, to make Yeshua HaMoshiach [Jesus] a human as shown in Deuteronomy: “…he [Yahovah] will raise up for you a Prophet [Yeshua HaMoshiach/Jesus] like me [Moses], an Israeli, a man to whom you must listen and whom you must obey.” Deuteronomy 18:15, TLB; see also Acts 3:22
During His ministry on Earth, Yeshua HaMoshiach [Jesus] stated that He taught not His own wisdom, but that of His Father, Yahovah: “For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak.” John 12:49
So many bible verses to prove the trinity false!
Over a hundred so far!
Just in the New Testament!
Examine your own Bibles as to the accuracy!
Yeshua HaMoshiach was not 'Elohim, but 'Elohim's Son!
Matthew 3:16-17; 8:29; 11:27; 12:18; 14:33; 16:16-17; 17:5; 27:54
Mark 5:7; 15:39
Luke 1:32; 1:35; 8:28; 9:35; 10:22
John 1:13; 1:18; 1:34; 1:49; 3:16; 5:19-23; 5:37; 6:40; 6:69; 8:18; 8:42; 10:15; 10:36; 11:4; 12:49-50; 14:13; 14:23; 14:28; 16:17; 17:1-16; 20:17; 20:31
Acts 2:22-24; 3:13; 3:26; 9:20
Romans 1:4; 5:10; 8:29
1 Corinthians 11:3; 15:28
2 Corinthians 1:19
Galatians 4:4
Philippians 2:9
Colossians 1:13
1 Thessalonians 1:10
1 Timothy 2:5
Hebrews 1:2; 2:9; 4:14; 5:7-8
1 Peter 1:3
2 Peter 1:17
1 John 1:3; 2:22; 3:23; 4:10; 4:14-15; 5:11-12
2 John 1:9
Revelation 2:18Atleast sixty Bible verses which prove without a doubt that Yeshua HaMoshiach [Jesus] is not 'Elohim, but instead is SON of 'Elohim.
Matthew 3:16-17; 8:29; 11:27; 12:18; 14:33; 16:16; 17:5; 27:54
Mark 5:7; 15:39
Luke 1:32; 8:28; 9:35; 10:22
John 1:18; 1:34; 1:49; 3:16; 5:19-23; 6:40; 6:69; 8:42; 10:15; 11:4; 12:49-50; 14:13; 14:23; 14:28; 16:17; 17:1-26
Acts 2:22-24; 3:13; 3:26; 9:20
Romans 1:4; 5:10; 8:13; 8:29-32
1 Corinthians 11:3; 15:28
2 Corinthians 1:19
Galatians 4:4
Colossians 1:13
1 Thessalonians 1:10
Hebrews 1:2; 4:14; 5:8; 7:3; 11:17
2 Peter 1:17
1 John 1:3; 1:22; 3:23; 4:10; 4:14-15; 5:6; 5:11-12
2 John 1:9
Revelation 2:8Trinitarians use John 1:1 as the proof that Yahovah and Yeshua HaMoshiach [Jesus] are one and the same:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.” John 1:1, KJV
And on the surface it seems rather straight forward the relationship of Yahovah and Yeshua HaMoshiach [Jesus].
But truth does not come from a single Bible verses taken out of context or blindly accepted without some study and research, now does it.
The Greek manuscripts of John 1:1 show that the Greek definite article is used to distinguish Yahovah as “the G-d” from his Son.”
The Emphatic Diaglott Containing the Original Greek Text of What Is Commonly Styled the New Testament gives the correct translation:
“In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the G-d, and a god was the word.” John 1:1, DGT)
Another Trinity theory is in 1John 5:7-8:
“For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth], the spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.” 1 John 5:7-8, KJV
The oldest and most reliable Bible manuscripts do not include the words withing the brackets in the above scripture and most recognized Bible scholars do not recognize them as part of the original text.
The Revised Standard Version states:
“And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth. There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree.” 1John 5:7-8, also see NIV, MEB, NEB, TLB, GNB, NAS for further proof.
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