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Hi,
Prov 30.4
” Who has ascended into heaven?[Yahshua}
Who has wrapped the wind in His fists?[YHWH]
Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?[YHWH]
Who has established all the ends of the earth? [YHWH]
What is His name or His Son's name?[YHWH and Yahweh]
Surely you know?”Two beings, Father and Son.
The Father is written as a Father hundreds of years before Christ's conception.
It is prophetic as Yahshua had yet to ascend.
What do others think?Someone referred this to Ex 4:22 which says Israel is my son, my firstborn.
But that doesn't fit, because Israel did not ascend into heaven.ACTS 2:34-36
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Until I make thy foes thy footstool.This verse spoken by Peter on the day of Pentecost links Prov 30:4 with Psalms 110, letting us know it is Jesus Christ who is the son spoken of here
Amen Nick
EPHESIANS 4:8-10
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)So it is pretty conclusively identified in the NT as to what this verse in the OT means and who this Son is.
Hi ,
There is no doubt in scripture that God is the Father, and often he is delineated fromn the Son in the same sentence.
2 Peter 1.17
“…honour and Glory from God the Father”
2 jn 1.3
“..God the Father and from Jesus Christ”
2 Thess 1.2
” ..from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ”
2 Thess 2.16
“…Christ himself and God our Father”
1Cor 8 .6
“..There is but one God the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ”
Gal 1.1
“…Jesus Christ and God the Father”
Phil 2.11
“..Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”
2 Thess 1.1-2
“…in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ; grace and peace to from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ”
2Thess 2.16
” Now may our lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father….”
to mention just a few.Jesus said the Father was the God of the Jews, and he showed that the Father is his God.
So to add confusion Satan added a new theological term “God the Son” and this was grasped by the trinitarians. Of course it never appears in scripture and logically it should, and have been put alongside 'God the Father' somewhere you would think if it was true, and if men depended on scripture as the source of truth.
How incredible that he has managed to convince most believers that God is not the Father alone. Some even think he is not a father at all!.
Hi,
Hosea 11.1
“When Israel was a youth I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son”Matt 2. 15
“..that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying
'Out of Egypt did I call My Son'”So God is saying Israel is His son, and also speaking of his Son Jesus Christ.
So He is a father of Israel and a true father of Christ.
Who will deny He is a true father?
Hi Malcolm,
You say Jesus must be fully God -the fulness of deity dwelled in him.
How can he BE what is IN HIM?Hi Nick
In this sense – any human son must be fully human. Any kitten is fully cat, any puppy is fully dog, a son of God is fully God – as to the life of God that makes him as son…
Also in the case of Jesus – and unique to him – God fully indwelt him.
The same God who had by spoken in times past IN prophets. It was God in the prophets – they were His mouthpiece to speak His Word. Spoke in the last days IN Son – but unlike the prophets upon whom the spirit of God came to anoint them to speak, this time He remained upon the vessel of His son, His tabernacle – to identify with us – to be identified to us as our savior through His sonHi Malcolm,
But having the Deity of the Father in the Fulness in Him did not make Him that God.God thus worked through him and spoke through him, but he was still a vessel for that God with a human mind and will and spirit of his own.
Like begets Like but not Same.
Quote But having the Deity of the Father in the Fulness in Him did not make Him that God. Amen – it was God IN Christ reconciling the world to Himself – The Father in the Son.
Quote God thus worked through him and spoke through him, but he was still a vessel for that God with a human mind and will and spirit of his own. Jesus had a mind with a memory and will of his own before he ever took the form of humanity.
PHILIPPIANS 2:5-8
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.He refers to this in John 17:5 so he had a memory of this, also as stated above, he was able to make a decision to become a servant, to be humble. So was the mind and will and spirit any different when expressed on earth? No – he was the faithful and obedient servant that God sent to earth to be the Lamb of God.
So the question leaps to the fore – did Jesus therefore have another spirit and another mind prior to his earthly appearance?
Personally I do not believe the life, spirit or mind of Jesus on earth were any different than he had in heaven. Perhaps his consciousness of his origins was not completely formed as a human being in infancy – I really don't know – but as he was a son before hand so he was a son on earth from birth. If Jesus truly had Divine origins before his natural birth then what of this divine nature and origin is in him in the natural body that he might be called God's son?
Was he a son of God simply because all human beings are sons of God?
Was he a man? Yes – was Adam a man? Yes. He is the second Adam.
Was Adam completely expressed as a son of God? No – sin in the garden interrupted this. He never came to the Tree of Life and eternal life.
On the other hand Jesus Christ came from the other side of this – from eternity with God down to an inferior position with us, to bring us, his brethren – back to the position he had left. Redeem means to bring\buy something back to a former status or position. Restore means to return to a former status or position. Adam lost his rightful position as a son of God and the inheritance it brought of eternal life. Jesus Christ restored this imbalance – I believe.Hi Malcolm,
You make some very good points.
So the life of Jesus as a man was according to ther spirit that he already had as a heavenly Son of God. So when he died and his spirit left his body all he had left was the anointing Spirit from God so that God could be all in all?Hi Nick
We get into some very speculative areas here…
Quote So the life of Jesus as a man was according to the spirit that he already had as a heavenly Son of God Gen 1:26 follows Gen 2:7 not just in sequence of writing in my humble opinion
Could it be that the TRUE human being IS a son of God?
Quote So when he died and his spirit left his body all he had left was the anointing Spirit from God so that God could be all in all? Sorry you lost me there. all he had left was the anointing Spirit from God ?? When Jesus died his soul went to hell, his spirit to God who gave it, and the body to the grave. I guess the soul disembodied was imprisoned by the curse that God had put upon the flesh. And Jesus' soul being one that knew no sin, that was not worthy of the punishment given – became the acceptable payment – the life of an innocent one.
God raised him from the grave sending back his spirit to the soul which then ascended and resumed its rightful place in the body.
I believe that God who indwelt him at Jordan left him before his death – as God cannot die.Hi Malcolm,
The death of Jesus was not the death of God. We cannot assume the Spirit left him as it is not written so. The most important promise in my view is that the Spirit, once given to us will NEVER be separated from us again in eternity, as with Christ.[see Rom 8.38f]. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit,in which also he went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison”
1 Peter 3.18f [The bosom of Abraham?]
Rom 8.19f
“…if indeed the Spirit of God DWELLS IN YOU…But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the deasd DWELLS in you, He who raised Christ HJesus from the dead will also GIVE LIFE TO YOUR MORTAL BODIES THROUGH HIS SPIRIT, WHO INDWELLS YOU.And if Christ is in you , THOUGH THE BODY IS DEAD because of Sin,YET THE SPIRIT IS ALIVE because of righteousness.”What I get from Rom 8:19 is that the scenario changed from what would have happened before his sacrifice.
Before
You die
Your spirit goes to God who gave it, your body to the earth from whence it came, and the soul to the prison house of Hell.After
You Live
Your body goes to the dust from whence it came, your spirit goes to God who gave it, and your soul goes to God.Quote The death of Jesus was not the death of God. We cannot assume the Spirit left him as it is not written so. He cried from the cross 'my God, my God why hast thou forsaken me' and the psalm reads 'you will not LEAVE his soul in hell, nor suffer his body to see corruption'.
Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 30 2006,06:31) Your spirit goes to God who gave it, your body to the earth from whence it came, and the soul to the prison house of Hell.
Acts 7:57-59
57At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.“Hi Malcolm and Is 1 .18,
We are one with Christ and share his Spirit. Do you suggest that that union is temporarily interrupted at death? Like Stephen Paul wanted to shed his earthly tent to be with the Lord. Does the vine separate from the branches? Does the head come apart from the toes?“I will never leave you or forsake you” heb 13.5
Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 30 2006,06:55) Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 30 2006,06:31) Your spirit goes to God who gave it, your body to the earth from whence it came, and the soul to the prison house of Hell.
Acts 7:57-59
57At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.“
Hi Is 1:18Nice, that is very good, thanks
Re: my quote I am drawing these conclusions from the following scriptural statements.ECCLESIASTES 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.PSALMS 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.It could be possible then that the sacrifice of Jesus amends this to the following:
Our soul and spirit goes to a place of Life, Heaven
Our body goes to the dust (for now at least)Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2006,07:21) Hi Malcolm and Is 1 .18,
We are one with Christ and share his Spirit. Do you suggest that that union is temporarily interrupted at death? Like Stephen Paul wanted to shed his earthly tent to be with the Lord. Does the vine separate from the branches? Does the head come apart from the toes?“I will never leave you or forsake you” heb 13.5
Nick – see my answer to Is 1:18 for that one…Hi Malcolm,
Scripture speaks of the promise of eternal life about 45 times in the NT. Eternal life is eternal life.It is the promise of the saved in Christ. Does it only begin at resurrection? Or now?Lk 16.9
“And I say make friends for yourselves by means of the wealth of unrighteousness, so that when it fails they will receive you into the ETERNAL DWELLINGS”
Jn 17.3
” This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent”
Gal 6.8
“…but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap ETERNAL LIFE”
1.Peter 5.10
“..the God of all grace, Who has called you to His ETERNAL GLORY IN CHRIST…”
1Jn 5.11
“..God has given us ETERNAL LIFE, and this LIFE is in His Son…so that you know that you have ETERNAL LIFE”.Jesus is the way , the truth and the LIFE. We who are in him HAVE LIFE. We have been raised up with Christ to the heavenly dwellings with Christ enjoined to him by the Spirit, the lifeblood of his body, forever.
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