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I Don't know if anyone has broached this question yet in the consideration of Godhead, cos I must admit there is too much to read, but who exactly is the Father of Jesus Christ. It says He has a Father in the Bible. It doesn't say He has Fathers.
(Matt 1:18) Tells us that the Father of Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit. How does that pan out with the trinity.
I must state that I agree with the findings of t8 in his comprehensive article on the Godhead.
Below is a short summary of some things I consider are critical to the understanding of Godhead, once again if these have been covered previously forgive me.Jesus must be fully man – yes – for God cannot die – He is eternal Spirit
Jesus must be fully God – yes – for man cannot save us – God alone is Saviour
Man can be partially God – Jesus said so when they challenged Him for His statement
“I and My Father are One”
His reply – you call those to whom the Word of God came gods (the Word of the Lord came to the Prophets) and you cannot deny the scriptures, so why do you say I am a horrible liar when I say that I am the Son of God. (in other words one with His Father – of One Life)
If Jesus literally was God He would have to say “I am my Father”
If the notion of a trinity is correct He would have had to also mention the Holy Spirit : “I and My Father and the Holy Spirit are one”
It does not do so – why? because “God is a Spirit” (John 4:24)
If the Father is one person and the Holy Spirit is another person then who was the Father of Jesus Christ?
Did He have two Fathers? Matt 1:18 tells us that the child was “of” begotten of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus must be fully God – yes – all the fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Him bodily.
He said He could do nothing unless He recieved it from God His Father.
His Father God declared at Jordan – this is My beloved Son – I am pleased to dwell in Him.
John the baptist was informed that the one who he saw the Spirit of God descend upon and remain on was to be the Messiah.
God's Spirit remained upon this divinely formed man until the time He was to die.
Otherwise His words on the cross – My God My God why have you forsaken me – would be meaningless.
Jesus was the complete representation of God to us – (John1:18)
Jesus was the complete representation of us to God – (2 Cor 5:21)(1 Tim 2:5)
Jesus is the tabernacle of God, the body which He is pleased to dwell in and work through.
This fact has never changed regardless of the form he had, he was made a little lower that angels in order to suffer death (Heb 2:9)(Phil 2:6-7)
Jesus ever was is and shall be the means by which we see, know and therefore worship God, bieng the image of God.
God, who we must worship only, is well capable of clearly outlining to us the way that is acceptable for us to worship Him. The pattern is clearly set forth in the Bible, we worship the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. That is not 2 persons in the Godhead, 3 persons or anything else. It is simply I God and one Son of God – the only True and acceptable understanding of God. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, God raised Christ from the dead, God was His Father and His God.
The bible does not say God was Christ reconciling the World to Himself, God did not raise Himself from the dead, God is not His own Father and God.
Jesus was fully man – born the Son of God, not created but begotten of God in the beginning and then manifest in creation.
Jesus was fully God, coming forth from God, the very image of God and with the same Life that is God enlivening Him.
If a man has a son that son has the same life of his father in him, yet the son is not the father…This is by no means a comprehensive treatment of a subject of which I believe the entire Word of God in print Form is the revelation of.
Hi and welcome malcolm ferris.
You wrote:Quote Jesus must be fully God – yes – for man cannot save us – God alone is Saviour Quote If Jesus literally was God He would have to say “I am my Father”
How do you reconcile these two statements? How can Jesus be “fully God” but not “literally God”?Also, could you elaborate on this statement:
Quote Man can be partially God – Jesus said so when they challenged Him for His statement
“I and My Father are One”
What do you mean by “partially God”?Here is something I wrote on John 10:34
“Here is John 10:34 in context:JOHN 10
30” I and the Father are one.” 31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'? 35″If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, ' I am the Son of God'?Here is a brief summary:
v30 Jesus makes a statement implying unity with their heavenly Father.
v31 The Jews picked up stones to kill him.
v32 Jesus question the Jews for the grounds on which He is being stoned.
V33 The Jews explain that they are about to stone him for BLASPHEMY (a stonable offense in first century Judea).
V34-36 Jesus reasons with the Jews with scripture pointing out to them that in their scriptures men are in fact called “gods” (Elohim). Thus their charges are rendered groundless on this technicality. They cannot legally stone him for inferring he is something synonymous with what scripture ascribes to men.Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6-7. Here it is in context:
PSALM 82
1God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers [elohim]. 2How long will you judge unjustly And show partiality to the wicked? Selah. 3 Vindicate the weak and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and destitute. 4Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. 5They do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6I said, “You are gods [Elohim], and all of you are sons of the Most High. 7″Nevertheless you will die like men and fall like any one of the princes.” 8Arise, O God, judge the earth! For it is You who possesses all the nations.The rulers (Elohim) in v1 are the “wicked” described in vs 2-4 and the “gods” in v6. These are MEN, magistrates (judges) in the land of Israel. These judges had perverted and abused the authority God had given them (Dan 4:25, 30, 34-37, 5:18-22, Rom 13:1-4), and as a result of this God declared “Nevertheless you will die like men and fall like any one of the princes”. It’s a little unclear and curious why these men are ascribed the title Elohim, some say its on account of their bestowed office and authority, others say it’s a form of Hebraic sarcasm. Either way it’s irrelevant to the topic a hand because quite clearly these “gods” (Elohim) are unmistakably human. They are not deity. They are men. Jesus point in John 10:34 was not that “men are divine”, Ps 82:6 most certainly does NOT bear this out, it was that in scripture the word Elohim is occasionally applied to men, and the pharisees objections were effectively groundless and He could not be legally stoned.
Also t8, think about it this way, if John 10:34 teaches that men are divine (including those deemed “wicked judges” who will “die like men and fall like any one of the princes”), in the same sense that Jesus is divine, then we have a VERY watered down divinity in Jesus don’t we! In fact the word loses all significance. He is our creator t8, and we are His “incurably wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9) creation.”
What are your thoughts?
Quote (malcolm ferris @ Mar. 24 2006,21:11) I Don't know if anyone has broached this question yet in the consideration of Godhead, cos I must admit there is too much to read, but who exactly is the Father of Jesus Christ. It says He has a Father in the Bible. It doesn't say He has Fathers.
(Matt 1:18) Tells us that the Father of Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit. How does that pan out with the trinity.
I must state that I agree with the findings of t8 in his comprehensive article on the Godhead.
Below is a short summary of some things I consider are critical to the understanding of Godhead, once again if these have been covered previously forgive me.Jesus must be fully man – yes – for God cannot die – He is eternal Spirit
Jesus must be fully God – yes – for man cannot save us – God alone is Saviour
Man can be partially God – Jesus said so when they challenged Him for His statement
“I and My Father are One”
His reply – you call those to whom the Word of God came gods (the Word of the Lord came to the Prophets) and you cannot deny the scriptures, so why do you say I am a horrible liar when I say that I am the Son of God. (in other words one with His Father – of One Life)
If Jesus literally was God He would have to say “I am my Father”
If the notion of a trinity is correct He would have had to also mention the Holy Spirit : “I and My Father and the Holy Spirit are one”
It does not do so – why? because “God is a Spirit” (John 4:24)
If the Father is one person and the Holy Spirit is another person then who was the Father of Jesus Christ?
Did He have two Fathers? Matt 1:18 tells us that the child was “of” begotten of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus must be fully God – yes – all the fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Him bodily.
He said He could do nothing unless He recieved it from God His Father.
His Father God declared at Jordan – this is My beloved Son – I am pleased to dwell in Him.
John the baptist was informed that the one who he saw the Spirit of God descend upon and remain on was to be the Messiah.
God's Spirit remained upon this divinely formed man until the time He was to die.
Otherwise His words on the cross – My God My God why have you forsaken me – would be meaningless.
Jesus was the complete representation of God to us – (John1:18)
Jesus was the complete representation of us to God – (2 Cor 5:21)(1 Tim 2:5)
Jesus is the tabernacle of God, the body which He is pleased to dwell in and work through.
This fact has never changed regardless of the form he had, he was made a little lower that angels in order to suffer death (Heb 2:9)(Phil 2:6-7)
Jesus ever was is and shall be the means by which we see, know and therefore worship God, bieng the image of God.
God, who we must worship only, is well capable of clearly outlining to us the way that is acceptable for us to worship Him. The pattern is clearly set forth in the Bible, we worship the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. That is not 2 persons in the Godhead, 3 persons or anything else. It is simply I God and one Son of God – the only True and acceptable understanding of God. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, God raised Christ from the dead, God was His Father and His God.
The bible does not say God was Christ reconciling the World to Himself, God did not raise Himself from the dead, God is not His own Father and God.
Jesus was fully man – born the Son of God, not created but begotten of God in the beginning and then manifest in creation.
Jesus was fully God, coming forth from God, the very image of God and with the same Life that is God enlivening Him.
If a man has a son that son has the same life of his father in him, yet the son is not the father…This is by no means a comprehensive treatment of a subject of which I believe the entire Word of God in print Form is the revelation of.
Welcome to the forum. I look forward to this topic.Hi,
Jesus identified to the Jews who God was, the Father.Jn 8.54
” Jesus answered
'If I glorify myself my glory is nothing; It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say
'He is our God' “
Seems plain.
That Father God is also the God of Jesus
Jn 20.17
“..I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God”
He was the only begotten Son of God who was sent into the world
He said in Jn 8.42
“..For I proceeded forth AND have come from God”
We should not confuse his divine origins with God in the beginning with the divine Almighty God who identified Himself as well as the Father of Jesus.
1Cor 8.5f
“..as indeed there are many gods and many lords YET FOR US there is but one God, the Father,….AND one Lord Jesus Christ..”ALLA HEMIN HICE THEOS PATER KAI HICE KURIOS IESOUS CHRISTOS.
“BUT FOR IS THERE IS ONE GOD, THE FATHER AND ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST”. How anyone can stumble on this, i'll never understand.
Jesus must be fully God – yes – for man cannot save us – God alone is Saviour
How can Jesus be fully God but not “literally God”
IN Him (Jesus) dwelled all the fullness of the Godhead bodily
or as Paul puts it in Hebrews 1:3 He is the outray or effulgence of God, who you cannot see (understand) in any other way. God identified with us through Jesus the lovely one.
Jn 1:18 – no man has ever seen God the only begotten Son which is in the bosom of the Father, He (the Son) has declared (exegeted – made known by way of Word) Him.Quote (malcolm ferris @ Mar. 29 2006,00:23) Jesus must be fully God – yes – for man cannot save us – God alone is Saviour How can Jesus be fully God but not “literally God”
IN Him (Jesus) dwelled all the fullness of the Godhead bodily
or as Paul puts it in Hebrews 1:3 He is the outray or effulgence of God, who you cannot see (understand) in any other way. God identified with us through Jesus the lovely one.
Jn 1:18 – no man has ever seen God the only begotten Son which is in the bosom of the Father, He (the Son) has declared (exegeted – made known by way of Word) Him.
Hi Malcolm,
What does 'fully God' mean? Not God himself or a part of God Himself?He is who he said he was -the Son of that God. I agree he was rather filled with the fullness of the deity of his Father God.
He was the sacrificial Lamb of God. God forgave men their sins with the blood of sacrifices in the Old Testament and the shed blood of his beloved only begotten Son was sufficient as a scapegoat for all men that their sins can be forgiven in him.
God forgives and He gave that right to His Son, and the sons of God born in him are also given this right and responsibility[Jn 20.23]
“Fully God”
OK its just my way of expressing, so sorry if it is causing some confusion.
I will attempt to explain my thinking on it…When God created all things how did He do so?
Through Christ
When God came down do redeem men how did he do so?
Christ made in a lower form
When all things are finally put right and sin is completiely out of the picture how does God rule and reigh?
Through Christ.
So that God is all and in all.
God in Christ does not make two persons in the Godhead.
It is one God and His first begotten Son.So when Jesus said to His disciples “If you have seen me you have seen the Father”
Then they saw God, who you can't see, when they saw Him working in and through Jesus who you can see. He told them to believe His claims that the Father was in Him and doing His works through him (Son) if they could not believe his claims. (John 10:34-38)Hi Malcolm,
Godhead is a quaint KJV word that relates to the nature of God himself and not any committee God. I sense you are of the Spirit of God and I want to encourage you.Yeah I know Godhead is one of those words that is very misused.
I only use it as it is a commonly uderstood term.
Unfortunately it brings with it a whole lot of preconcieved ideas that we need to lose.
When I say Godhead – I mean GOD – that is what it means to mean GOD + nothing = GOdhead.
When you bring into play the means by which this is made manifest and therefore known – you are not talking godhead.
Godhead to my understanding is eternal. Without beginning or end.
So the Son of God and we as sons of God are not a part of the godhead.
That's what I am meaning by the use of the word.Hi Malcolm,
It says of the Word that he was with God in the beginning.
It says in Micah 5 that
“his goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity”
That does not say he had no beginning but that he is from that beginning era.
But he is also the “only begotten Son” No Son precedes his father but all derive from their fathers.All sons have a beginning.
He said of himself in Jn 8.42
“for I proceeded from AND have come from God”
The terms 'proceeded' and 'have come from' are not a repetition of each other as scripture is completely concise. He is begotten of God as the image of that God surely.I completely agree, Jesus was sent, did not send Himself.
Jeus Christ is was and always will be subserviant to His Father who is greater than all.
When it says in Phil2 that He (Jesus) was equal with God as I understand it – it refers to the law of the firstborn in which he (the firstborn) has by inheritance a 50:50 share of the estate of his father.
I do not believe there is any time where the status quo will ever change from what it is – we worship one God.
Seems a lot of trouble has emerged from the usage of The Word or Logos. It is used to support all kinds of concepts of God foriegn to the teaching of Scriptures which is a great pity.
The Word. The Logos – whatever you want to refer to – IS GOD.
GOD IS ETERNAL. Sons are not – sons of God have beginnings. Yet sons of God have eternal life for that it what makes a son, the life of their father is in them.Hi Malcolm,
Phil 2.5f
“Jesus Christ, who, although he existed IN THE FORM OF GOD, did not regard equality WITH God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself..”
So he was divine but never equal and did not seek equality with God the Father.
KJV makes a pigs ear of this verse so it almost reads as the reverse.In no way am I disputing the Divine origin of Jesus the Son of God.
He is divine, even as any son of a human being is a human being.Hi Malcolm,
Many people say “only God can save us”as a justification for teaching that God, and not Christ came in the flesh and died.
God is the Saviour.[1Tim 2. 3]
But he does his work through Christ so Christ is the Saviour too.[2Tim 1.10]I agree Nick, Jesus is truly the Saviour too, it clearly shows that the Father and the Son are both the Saviour even in directly following verses.
Tit 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of GOD OUR SAVIOUR;
Tit 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the LORD JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOUR.There are so many examples that Jesus is our Saviour this is the Mystery of God, the ONE LORD.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR.
(ASV) I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour.
(Bishops) I am, euen I am the only Lord, and beside me there is no sauiour.
(DRB) I am, I am the Lord: and there is no saviour besides me.
(Geneva) I, euen I am the Lorde, and beside me there is no Sauiour.
(GNB) “I alone am the LORD, the only one who can save you.
(KJV+) I,595 even I,595 am the LORD;3068 and beside4480, 1107 me there is no369 savior.3467
(KJVA) I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
(LXX) ἐγὼ ὁ θεός, καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν πάρεξ ἐμοῦ σῴζων.
(MSG) I, yes I, am GOD. I'm the only Savior there is.
(Vulgate) ego sum ego sum Dominus et non est absque me salvator
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, BY WHOM ARE ALL THINGS, AND WE BY HIM.
God the Father OF WHOM, God the Son BY WHOM.
Jesus is the Mystery of God, he is Hid in the essence of God he is BY WHOM ALL THINGS ARE. God is love and he shares the greatest love with us, John15:13.
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, WHO CREATED ALL THINGS BY JESUS CHRIST:
WHAT A MYSTERY
Joh 8:25 They said therefore to him: Who art thou? JESUS SAID TO THEM: The beginning, WHO ALSO SPEAK UNTO YOU.
YES he did SPEAK and he did CALL! Compare above and below.
Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, THE FIRST, AND WITH THE LAST; I AM HE.
Gen 1:26 And GOD SAID, Let US MAKE man in our image, after OUR LIKENESS…..
Gen 1:27 So GOD CREATED MAN IN HIS OWN IMAGE….Isa 48:12 Hearken to me, O Jacob, and thou Israel whom I call: I AM HE, I am the first, and I am the last.
The first and the last is the ONE LORD, the Father is the first and the last and the Son is the first and the Last.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.Satan does not want us to understand this mystery, WHY?
Joh 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins. For if you believe not that I AM HE, you shall die in your sin.
And again WHY, because Jesus only gives us two commandments Satan wants us to break the greatest commandment of God
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment.
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said to him: Well, Master, thou hast said in truth that there is one God and there is NO OTHER BESIDES HIM.NO SAVIOUR BESIDES HIM and NO GOD BESIDES HIM
Jesus is one with his Father, different persons same essence, THE LORD OUR GOD who humbled himself as below
Psa 113:3 From the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same the LORD'S name is to be praised.
Psa 113:4 The LORD is high above all nations, and his glory above the heavens.
Psa 113:5 Who is like unto the LORD our God, who dwelleth on high,
Psa 113:6 WHO HUMBLETH HIMSELF to behold the things that are in heaven, and in the earth!WOW!
What an awesome God we have! He comes from heaven on high.
All can be summed up in next few verses.Joh 1:14 And the WORD WAS MADE FLESH and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.
The WORD WAS MADE FLESH.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the WORD WAS GOD.
Joh 1:2 THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him: and WITHOUT HIM WAS MADE NOTHING THAT WAS MADE.The Son was made Flesh and the Father was also in him and he was also in the Father, the eternal boundless Love not created but everlasting.
I believe Jesus is to be Worshipped and he is to be loved with all our soul mind and strength.
ALL PRAISE AND GLORY TO THE LORD OF LORDS
Hi SS,
So the mystery is that Jesus is not the Son of God?
That God is not a Father?No SS. You have denied the Father and the Son.
They are two working as one.Two working as one – that is the unity
JOHN 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.Knowledge of the only true God is only possible through Jesus Christ
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