Who is the archangel michael?

[vjesnik]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2014,05:15)

Hi JV, Heb  1 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? Jesus was for a time less than and now is greater than the angels. But he was never ONE OF the angels

Nick
You said : “But he was never ONE OF the angels”
I think that people don’t understand he is sometimes called an angel because they perceive the angels as the lowest beings, which is pure traditional view.
Let me explain, although he is called an angel, in the scripture it is very clear that he is not “just any angel”, he is not “just angel”, he is very special one as his title and the name say: Archangel Michael, meaning – The First Angel – Messenger, who is like God. What does the Bible says about Jesus: Colossians 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” Basically the exact same thing.
So the texts you quoted do not contradict this.

God bless
Vjesnik

[vjesnik]

Quote (kerwin @ May 28 2014,05:38)

Quote (vjesnik @ May 27 2014,23:50) Quote (kerwin @ May 28 2014,02:56) vjesnik, Quote Is the archangel Michael the same person as Jesus? Jesus is not an angel as God did not subject the world to come to angels but it is subjected to Jesus. kerwin 1 Corinthians 10; 1-4 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers,  that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. Exodus 23; 20-22 “Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him. Acts 7; 38 This is the one (Moses) who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai… Exodus 34; 27-28 And the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. God bless vjesnik, Please credit the version you are quoting from.  If you have a favorite then I would address you in it provide it was not one of the thought for thought versions I find heavily biased. Hebrews 2:5 New English Translation (NET) 5 For he did not put the world to come, about which we are speaking, under the control of angels. Scripture cannot be broken so the passages you quote and Hebrews 2:5 cannot contradict each other.  They must agree on all points they have in common. Nick already pointed out a good interpretation that resolves your Scripture in such a way as they do not imply that Jesus is an angel.  In this way his interpretation is in harmony with Hebrews 2:5.

Hi kerwin

I like to study the originals because you can find out which words were completely mistranslated to support the doctrine of trinity, but in this case I used English Standard Version.

For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come but to his only begotten Son. There is no contradictions here it fits perfectly. These texts do not prove he is not the same being. He is talking about the other angels and about the Son of man, he had exalted position from the beginning and everything was made through him and for him.

God bless
Vjesnik

[vjesnik]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2014,06:44)

Hi JV, You quote Exodus 23; 20-22 “Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him. “ Yes the angel of the Lord went before them, not Jesus Christ.

Hi Nick

…and once again Nick, it clearly says “…and the Rock was Christ.”
Please notice they have to pay careful attention to him, obey him, not rebel against him, because he will not forgive their transgressions, so you see he has the power to forgive or not forgive sins!

Here’s another text about the same being where we see he has the power to save.
Isaiah 63:9 In all their distress he too was distressed, and the angel of his presence saved them…
There is only one person that fits all this and it is the Christ.

God bless
Vjesnik

[Wakeup]

Vjesnik.

wakeup.

[vjesnik]

Quote (Wakeup @ May 28 2014,15:45)

Quote (vjesnik @ May 28 2014,16:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2014,04:55) Hi VJ, Yes the Spirit of Christ was in the Prophets[1 peter 1.11] and in the desert as you show. And the word was spoken through angels [heb 2.2] And Hebrews 1-2 contrasts Jesus Christ with the angels Hi Nick I showed, actually the scripture shows it was the Christ who was going with them “…and the Rock was Christ.” It is very clear. Here you mix the Spirit of Christ (the Holy Spirit) with the Christ. 1 Peter 1.10-11 is talking about the prophecy and it is the Holy Spirit who brings prophecy. 2 Peter 1; 20-21 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. It is very clear. Vjesnik Vjesnik. THE ROCK *REPRESENTS CHRIST*; AND THE WATER *REPRESENTS* THE HOLY SPIRIT. Can you answer this question? Who created Micha'el? wakeup.

wakeup

The Father of course.

God bless
Vjesnik

[Wakeup]

Quote (vjesnik @ May 28 2014,18:10)

Quote (Wakeup @ May 28 2014,15:45) Quote (vjesnik @ May 28 2014,16:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2014,04:55) Hi VJ, Yes the Spirit of Christ was in the Prophets[1 peter 1.11] and in the desert as you show. And the word was spoken through angels [heb 2.2] And Hebrews 1-2 contrasts Jesus Christ with the angels Hi Nick I showed, actually the scripture shows it was the Christ who was going with them “…and the Rock was Christ.” It is very clear. Here you mix the Spirit of Christ (the Holy Spirit) with the Christ. 1 Peter 1.10-11 is talking about the prophecy and it is the Holy Spirit who brings prophecy. 2 Peter 1; 20-21 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. It is very clear. Vjesnik Vjesnik. THE ROCK *REPRESENTS CHRIST*; AND THE WATER *REPRESENTS* THE HOLY SPIRIT. Can you answer this question? Who created Micha'el? wakeup. wakeup The Father of course. God bless Vjesnik

Scriptures says that the Word created all things.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, **and the Word was God**.

John 1:2 The same was in the beginning **with God**.

John 1:3 ***All things were made by him***;
***and without him was not any thing made that was
made***.

WITHOUT HIM WAS *NOT ANYTHING* MADE THAT WAS MADE.

THIS ONLY MEANS THAT MICHA'EL WAS MADE BY THE WORD. THEREFORE MICHA'EL CAN NOT BE THE WORD.

Does that make any sense to you?

wakeup.

[vjesnik]

Quote (Wakeup @ May 28 2014,17:20)

Quote (vjesnik @ May 28 2014,18:10) Quote (Wakeup @ May 28 2014,15:45) Quote (vjesnik @ May 28 2014,16:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2014,04:55) Hi VJ, Yes the Spirit of Christ was in the Prophets[1 peter 1.11] and in the desert as you show. And the word was spoken through angels [heb 2.2] And Hebrews 1-2 contrasts Jesus Christ with the angels Hi Nick I showed, actually the scripture shows it was the Christ who was going with them “…and the Rock was Christ.” It is very clear. Here you mix the Spirit of Christ (the Holy Spirit) with the Christ. 1 Peter 1.10-11 is talking about the prophecy and it is the Holy Spirit who brings prophecy. 2 Peter 1; 20-21 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. It is very clear. Vjesnik Vjesnik. THE ROCK *REPRESENTS CHRIST*; AND THE WATER *REPRESENTS* THE HOLY SPIRIT. Can you answer this question? Who created Micha'el? wakeup. wakeup The Father of course. God bless Vjesnik Scriptures says that the Word created all things.  John 1:1   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, **and the Word was God**.  John 1:2   The same was in the beginning **with God**.  John 1:3   ***All things were made by him***; ***and without him was not any thing made that was       made***. WITHOUT HIM WAS *NOT ANYTHING* MADE THAT WAS MADE. THIS ONLY MEANS THAT MICHA'EL WAS MADE BY THE WORD. THEREFORE MICHA'EL CAN NOT BE THE WORD. Does that make any sense to you? wakeup.

wakeup wakeup

I see you are trying to set up traps for me 
I’m glad for that because anyone looking this thread that is really looking for the truth can see the answer to this.

Your logic is not the right one. Why? I will give you the example from the scripture.

1 Corinthians 15:27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.
It is plain in this text, although it says “all”, it doesn’t include the God himself, the same, in the text you are quoting; it should be plain that it doesn’t include the Word, it includes everything except him who come from the Father, everything that was created through him, but it doesn’t include himself who was created by his Father.

Did you ever read?
Hebrews 3:2   Who is faithful to him that made  him, as was also Moses in all his house. – Greek word 4160. poieó: to make, do , although the Trinitarians translate it as appointed that is not what Greek says.

Hebrews 2:11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, We all have one source, the Father

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”  He is the Father’s firstborn before even coming into the world.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. Again, he is the firstborn of all creation, now don’t ignore the part where it says “of all creation” thus making him the part of God’s creation; although very special one, he is the only begotten Son, the only direct creation of the Father. Now you can use the translation where it says “over all creation”, but that is not what the Greek manuscripts say. Just remember what Jesus said about removing, adding, changing the scriptures!

Revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.
He is the beginning of God’s creation – in Greek arché, does this sound familiar.

Except it or not, there is only one true God, and that is the Father. Jesus is the Son of God.

Son has to come from the Father, otherwise the scriptures wouldn’t be talking about the Father and the Son, but about two or three brothers (depends which view you are holding) without the father.

God bless
Vjesnik

[NickHassan]

Quote (vjesnik @ May 28 2014,17:07)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2014,06:44) Hi JV, You quote Exodus 23; 20-22 “Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him. “ Yes the angel of the Lord went before them, not Jesus Christ. Hi Nick …and once again Nick, it clearly says “…and the Rock was Christ.” Please notice they have to pay careful attention to him, obey him, not rebel against him, because he will not forgive their transgressions, so you see he has the power to forgive or not forgive sins! Here’s another text about the same being where we see he has the power to save. Isaiah 63:9 In all their distress he too was distressed, and the angel of his presence saved them… There is only one person that fits all this and it is the Christ. God bless Vjesnik

Hi VJ,
Indeed the Spirit of Christ The waters of the Spirit.
Yes and the angel went before them.

Did you think it was Jesus who had yet to be conceived??.

[NickHassan]

Hi VJ,
Adding opinion and inference to scripture does not build truth but destroys it.

[NickHassan]

Hi VJ,
You say
“Nick
You said : “But he was never ONE OF the angels”
I think that people don’t understand he is sometimes called an angel because they perceive the angels as the lowest beings, which is pure traditional view.
Let me explain, although he is called an angel, in the scripture it is very clear that he is not “just any angel”, he is not “just angel”, he is very special one as his title and the name say: Archangel Michael, meaning – The First Angel – Messenger, who is like God. What does the Bible says about Jesus: Colossians 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” Basically the exact same thing.
So the texts you quoted do not contradict this.”
Scripture never says he is an angel.
Is that not enough?

How can he be greater than the angels but also be an angel??

Why not theorise he was Adam or Moses or Melchizadek
Wild speculations are unhelpful.

[NickHassan]

Hi VJ,
Michael is ONE OF the chief angels.

Is that good enough to put the Son of God in that position??

[NickHassan]

Hi VJ,
You say
“For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come but to his only begotten Son. There is no contradictions here it fits perfectly. These texts do not prove he is not the same being. He is talking about the other angels and about the Son of man, he had exalted position from the beginning and everything was made through him and for him.”

No contradictions?
hmmm.

[Wakeup]

Quote (vjesnik @ May 28 2014,20:53)

Quote (Wakeup @ May 28 2014,17:20) Quote (vjesnik @ May 28 2014,18:10) Quote (Wakeup @ May 28 2014,15:45) Quote (vjesnik @ May 28 2014,16:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2014,04:55) Hi VJ, Yes the Spirit of Christ was in the Prophets[1 peter 1.11] and in the desert as you show. And the word was spoken through angels [heb 2.2] And Hebrews 1-2 contrasts Jesus Christ with the angels Hi Nick I showed, actually the scripture shows it was the Christ who was going with them “…and the Rock was Christ.” It is very clear. Here you mix the Spirit of Christ (the Holy Spirit) with the Christ. 1 Peter 1.10-11 is talking about the prophecy and it is the Holy Spirit who brings prophecy. 2 Peter 1; 20-21 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. It is very clear. Vjesnik Vjesnik. THE ROCK *REPRESENTS CHRIST*; AND THE WATER *REPRESENTS* THE HOLY SPIRIT. Can you answer this question? Who created Micha'el? wakeup. wakeup The Father of course. God bless Vjesnik Scriptures says that the Word created all things.  John 1:1   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, **and the Word was God**.  John 1:2   The same was in the beginning **with God**.  John 1:3   ***All things were made by him***; ***and without him was not any thing made that was       made***. WITHOUT HIM WAS *NOT ANYTHING* MADE THAT WAS MADE. THIS ONLY MEANS THAT MICHA'EL WAS MADE BY THE WORD. THEREFORE MICHA'EL CAN NOT BE THE WORD. Does that make any sense to you? wakeup. wakeup wakeup I see you are trying to set up traps for me  I’m glad for that because anyone looking this thread that is really looking for the truth can see the answer to this. Your logic is not the right one. Why? I will give you the example from the scripture. 1 Corinthians 15:27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. It is plain in this text, although it says “all”, it doesn’t include the God himself, the same, in the text you are quoting; it should be plain that it doesn’t include the Word, it includes everything except him who come from the Father, everything that was created through him, but it doesn’t include himself who was created by his Father. Did you ever read? Hebrews 3:2   Who is faithful to him that made  him, as was also Moses in all his house. – Greek word 4160. poieó: to make, do , although the Trinitarians translate it as appointed that is not what Greek says. Hebrews 2:11 For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers, We all have one source, the Father Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”  He is the Father’s firstborn before even coming into the world. Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. Again, he is the firstborn of all creation, now don’t ignore the part where it says “of all creation” thus making him the part of God’s creation; although very special one, he is the only begotten Son, the only direct creation of the Father. Now you can use the translation where it says “over all creation”, but that is not what the Greek manuscripts say. Just remember what Jesus said about removing, adding, changing the scriptures! Revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation. He is the beginning of God’s creation – in Greek arché, does this sound familiar. Except it or not, there is only one true God, and that is the Father. Jesus is the Son of God. Son has to come from the Father, otherwise the scriptures wouldn’t be talking about the Father and the Son, but about two or three brothers (depends which view you are holding) without the father. God bless Vjesnik

Vjesnik

Why dont you answer my simple question?

You said Micha'el was created by God, true but not the whole truth.

He was created by the Word of God;now called Jesus.
For without Him was not anything made that was made.

You can not include the creator;which is God and His Word.

Micha'el can never be Jesus; because Jesus is the creator of Micha'el. Nevermind the other scriptures for they dont proof
your believe.

Are you refusing to see the truth?

wakeup.

[kerwin]

Quote (vjesnik @ May 28 2014,12:03)

Quote (kerwin @ May 28 2014,05:38) Quote (vjesnik @ May 27 2014,23:50) Quote (kerwin @ May 28 2014,02:56) vjesnik, Quote Is the archangel Michael the same person as Jesus? Jesus is not an angel as God did not subject the world to come to angels but it is subjected to Jesus. kerwin 1 Corinthians 10; 1-4 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers,  that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. Exodus 23; 20-22 “Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him. Acts 7; 38 This is the one (Moses) who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai… Exodus 34; 27-28 And the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. God bless vjesnik, Please credit the version you are quoting from.  If you have a favorite then I would address you in it provide it was not one of the thought for thought versions I find heavily biased. Hebrews 2:5 New English Translation (NET) 5 For he did not put the world to come, about which we are speaking, under the control of angels. Scripture cannot be broken so the passages you quote and Hebrews 2:5 cannot contradict each other.  They must agree on all points they have in common. Nick already pointed out a good interpretation that resolves your Scripture in such a way as they do not imply that Jesus is an angel.  In this way his interpretation is in harmony with Hebrews 2:5. Hi kerwin I like to study the originals because you can find out which words were completely mistranslated to support the doctrine of trinity, but in this case I used English Standard Version. For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come but to his only begotten Son. There is no contradictions here it fits perfectly. These texts do not prove he is not the same being. He is talking about the other angels and about the Son of man, he had exalted position from the beginning and everything was made through him and for him. God bless Vjesnik

Vjesnik,

You did not express your thoughts clearly.

Hebrews states the world to come is not subject to angels.

You stated it is talking about those “other” angels.

What “other” angels?

Are they a particular kind of angel and Jesus is another kind of angel?

If so what kind of angel is Jesus?

[terraricca]

hi

REV 3:5 ‘ He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
REV 12:7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,
REV 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

it seems that our life's depend on Christ rater than Michael one of the chief angel ;

so sins Christ is sitting with his father on a throne ,we can see that Micheal is working for him and that it is Christ that gives the orders to Michael to save or not to save ,

[Author]

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