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Quote I believe any sane person can see the shallow nature of the Watchtower reasoning. The fact is: THEY DO NOT HAVE ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT THEY CAN POINT TO, SAYING CLEARLY THAT JESUS CHRIST IS MICHAEL. Do not let the JWs get away from this fact, but press them on it.
–WJI quoted WJ's words above and then said:
Quote I find this argument extraordinarily odd and bizarre given your belief in the trinity. I believe many trinitarians on here (and me as well on the other side) have admitted that there is no single scripture that clearly says God is a trinity. Yet, you believe it.
Is 1:18, why would you find my argument odd.
I simply pointed out that WJ (and yourself) are quite inconsistent. WJ said there is no “SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT THEY CAN POINT TO, SAYING CLEARLY THAT JESUS CHRIST IS MICHAEL.”
Yet, the exact same thing can be said of the trinity. Yet, you aren't going to abandon your trinity doctrine because of this fact.
So, WJ's statement that I quoted is quite meaningless, unless he is willing to apply the same to himself.
And therefore, my argument stands.And it is true, Is 1:18, as you say:
Quote I think the inferential evidence for the trinity is vastly more impressive that that for Jesus
But your statement is misleading. For, while there is more pro-trinity verses (hundreds of times more) there are also thousands of times more anti-trinity verses.
As regards the Jesus being Michael belief, there are only a handful of scriptures on both sides. So, while there is more evidence taken for the trinity, it could equally be said there is more evidence against the trinity than there is against the Michael/Jesus belief.I could just as easily say that there are only 1 or 2 scriptures against the Michael belief, but there are literally thousands of scriptures that contradict the trinity. What does that prove? Anything? Nothing. So your argument isn't exactly airtight.
The fact remains that neither belief (trinity or Michael/Jesus) has, as WJ says, “one single scripture” that “clearly” states either case.
david.
(Is 1:18, where have you been?)Jesus Christ
Arch Angel Michael
are clearly 2 different people
http://www.whoisjesus-really.com/
follow this link
Often people misinterprate the Bible
That in itself is a Dangerous thing
though Michael is but a servant of God
Jesus is God
(on http://www.whoisjesus-really.com/ focus on the claims)
Peace and God bless all of you
Sigh
Well you carry on believing what you believe
Many people Believe Jesus is the Messiah but do not believe he is God
Quote (david @ Oct. 13 2009,17:30) Quote I believe any sane person can see the shallow nature of the Watchtower reasoning. The fact is: THEY DO NOT HAVE ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT THEY CAN POINT TO, SAYING CLEARLY THAT JESUS CHRIST IS MICHAEL. Do not let the JWs get away from this fact, but press them on it.
–WJI quoted WJ's words above and then said:
Quote I find this argument extraordinarily odd and bizarre given your belief in the trinity. I believe many trinitarians on here (and me as well on the other side) have admitted that there is no single scripture that clearly says God is a trinity. Yet, you believe it.
Is 1:18, why would you find my argument odd.
I simply pointed out that WJ (and yourself) are quite inconsistent. WJ said there is no “SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT THEY CAN POINT TO, SAYING CLEARLY THAT JESUS CHRIST IS MICHAEL.”
Yet, the exact same thing can be said of the trinity. Yet, you aren't going to abandon your trinity doctrine because of this fact.
So, WJ's statement that I quoted is quite meaningless, unless he is willing to apply the same to himself.
And therefore, my argument stands.And it is true, Is 1:18, as you say:
Quote I think the inferential evidence for the trinity is vastly more impressive that that for Jesus
But your statement is misleading. For, while there is more pro-trinity verses (hundreds of times more) there are also thousands of times more anti-trinity verses.
As regards the Jesus being Michael belief, there are only a handful of scriptures on both sides. So, while there is more evidence taken for the trinity, it could equally be said there is more evidence against the trinity than there is against the Michael/Jesus belief.I could just as easily say that there are only 1 or 2 scriptures against the Michael belief, but there are literally thousands of scriptures that contradict the trinity. What does that prove? Anything? Nothing. So your argument isn't exactly airtight.
The fact remains that neither belief (trinity or Michael/Jesus) has, as WJ says, “one single scripture” that “clearly” states either case.
david.
(Is 1:18, where have you been?)
DavidBut we do have clear scriptures that says Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God! You have no such evidence where Jesus is called Michael the Archangel.
We also have clear scriptures that there are three who are One.
Matt 28:19 is just one of them.
So grant it the word “Trinity” is not in the scriptures, but the concept has supporting text for Who and what the Trinity is.
Not so for Michael being Jesus.
WJ
Gen 1 verse 26
“Us”
When God confused the languages. “tower of Babel
Gen 11 verse 1 – 9
“Us” focus on verse 7
Michael is just an angel
God is God
John 1 verse 1, 2, 3
Also speaks about Jesus
Jesus was begotten not created
Michael was created
Jesus always existed Michael did not
Jesus Is God
Michael is an Angel
Quote (followerofJesus @ Oct. 14 2009,12:42) Gen 1 verse 26 “Us”
When God confused the languages. “tower of Babel
Gen 11 verse 1 – 9
“Us” focus on verse 7
Michael is just an angel
God is God
John 1 verse 1, 2, 3
Also speaks about Jesus
Jesus was begotten not created
Michael was created
Jesus always existed Michael did not
Jesus Is God
Michael is an Angel
In Genesis it says Us and ours because Jesus was not always there He had a beginning, why, because Scriptures tells us that.
Col. 1:15-17 He is the image of the invisible of, the firstborn over all creation.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible……..
verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.Jesus is also the firstborn of the dead in
verse 18 And He is the head of the body the Church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence. Meaning He was first in all.Rev. 3:14…” These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.
Once you understand that there is no trinity, you will also understand this.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (david @ Oct. 14 2009,09:30) (Is 1:18, where have you been?)
I have a job that takes me away from home a lot between July-Sept, and I have a busy working and family life when I'm at home the rest of the year. At the end of the day I'm often too drained to string 2 words together. I also get tired of the constant squabbling.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 14 2009,20:06) Quote (david @ Oct. 14 2009,09:30) (Is 1:18, where have you been?)
I have a job that takes me away from home a lot between July-Sept, and I have a busy working and family life when I'm at home the rest of the year. At the end of the day I'm often too drained to string 2 words together. I also get tired of the constant squabbling.
Hi Is. I agree that some are even nausty and call others names. But I do like the website, it gives me a chance to be chanllenged. I dig deeper into the Bible. And that is a good thing. We just have to ignore those that do so.
Peace ad Love IreneMichael the Arch angel is an Angel of the Lord
on of many Angels
Having lost the war in Heaven Satan (who once and angel of the Lord 'morning star') fell. took 1/3 of the Angels with him Revelation 12 verse 4
Michael is but a Servant of the Lord just like other angel Such as Gabriel
Though I cant remember now, When I think John the Baptist was shown things that are to happen the things spoke of in the Book of Revelation. and then he was worshipping the Angel the angel reacted “No! don't woship me, I am but a servant! just like you, get up!” (That was from memory need to check it later
I believe that Michael being a servant would react similar to how I think it was Gabriel, reacted
There are both Angels and servants of God, not God himself
Peace and God bless you
Hi:
The name “Michael” means “who is like God”, and is speaking of someone with that spirit. It is like John the Baptist coming in the spirit of Elijah.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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