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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 20 2009,18:04) scriptual underpinning.[/quote]
Hi Isa 1:18Not only that, but if he is now an Angel then he could not be a man.
I know. No matter which way you look at it, it's nonsense.Quote (david @ April 20 2009,10:13) It is a very interesting point (and one I haven't heard) that WJ raises, about descending “with an archangels voice” and “with God's trumpet” and to be consistent, we should believe that if he is the archangel, we also have to believe he is God. WJ, what would you say to this:
John 5:25,28 “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God.”
So in 1 thessalonians, its the archangel's voice, but in John 5, it is the voice of the Son of God! One cannot be wrong and the other right.
In both Thessalonians and John we see that the voice causes the resurrection of life. The dead in Christ will rise when they hear His voice! This is the same event and so it seems Jesus and Michael must be the same person.
Hi DavidNot at all the same person.
If you read Revelation you will see there is a lot that takes place at his coming.
Just because it says he is coming with the voice of the Archangel and in another place the voice of Jesus raises the dead proves nothing except to me that Jesus is coming and has armies of Angels following him.
Why do we not have Paul saying Jesus, who is Michael the Archangel is coming with a shout and with the trump of God?
What you have is a lot of inference, and that is all!
There is no scripture that says Jesus is an Angel. There is scripture that says certain men like John the Baptist is a messenger, “aggelos”, but that Greek word never once is applied to Yeshua in the NT. Do you think John the Baptist was an “Angel”?
And he shall send his “angels with a great sound of a trumpet“, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matt 24:31
Here we see that the “Angels” in the plural are coming with the sound of a trumpet which would indicate that “The trump of God” in Thess incorporates a whole lot of stuff happening at the same time including the voice of Jesus raising the dead.
As you can see in the Above verse that “Trump of God” is also the Trump of Angels!
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Again I quote…
“First, it does not say that Jesus is the One Who is doing the shouting. It says He will descend WITH a shout. The word “with” means “accompanied by”. For example….”I went to the store WITH my wife.” Does that mean that I am the same person as my wife? No. It means that she accompanied me to the store. In fact, there are some verses that clearly say that, when Jesus comes, all of the angels will be coming WITH Him.
Check out the following verses: Matthew 25:31, Mark 8:38. It makes sense that the arrival and coming of a King would be announced by a loyal subject, which in this case, will be Michael the Archangel. There will be a shout from Michael, and then the blowing of the trumpet to announce the King's arrival in the rapture.
Suffice it to say, there is nothing in 1 Thess. 4:16 that states that Michael and Jesus are the same Person.”
In all of the scriptures that speak of his comming there is not one that mentions Jesus as one of the Angels or an Archangel.
WJ
Quote (david @ April 20 2009,10:17) Quote I believe any sane person can see the shallow nature of the Watchtower reasoning. The fact is: THEY DO NOT HAVE ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT THEY CAN POINT TO, SAYING CLEARLY THAT JESUS CHRIST IS MICHAEL. Do not let the JWs get away from this fact, but press them on it. –WJ
I find this argument extraordinarily odd and bizarre given your belief in the trinity.
I believe many trinitarians on here (and me as well on the other side) have admitted that there is no single scripture that clearly says God is a trinity. Yet, you believe it.
I guess this means, according to your very own argument, you must walk away from that belief.
Hi DavidNo I will not walk away from mine no more than you will walk away from yours.
I find it hillarious that you are admitting to making the same argument of a Trinitarian. Now it seems to me that you have been hypocritical knowing that you believed you were making the same argument.
You see David we are not making the same argument, for the Trinitarian has scriptures that support their belief.
There is no scripture that calls an Angel of God “Theos”, but there are scriptures that call Jesus “Theos”.
You would have a better argument if there was some scripture somewhere that called an Angel of God theos.
WJ
Hi WJ,
Yes I found it surprising that David was making that argument as well. He sort of inadvertedly invalidated his own doctrine. I guess there is a key difference between the trinity and Jesus=michael doctrines though. To my mind the trinity resolves contradictions whereas the Jesus=Michael doctrine creates them.Blessings
Is 1:18
Hi Is1.18,
But the same principle that truth does not have to be written but can be deduced led to both.
The trinity idea divides most believers from the source of written truth.Right
First of all NEVER confuse an Arch Angel with God
God created Everything!!
After the war in Heaven was won by those who chose God.
Those who fought against God were cast down. and lost their place in Heaven
An Arch Angel is the leader of the Angels
Stronger smarter and generally a much better Angel
BUT! the angels themselves are indeed capable. though not Arch Angel
Yes Arch Angel Michael is indeed capable and would lead Gods angels Against Satan and his angels
But God is Not an Angel God is God
Jesus is God the son
the bible clearly states that
God the Son and one part of God the Holy Trinity
Angels whether they be Arch Angel or not are still just servants of God
Read Hebrews chapter 1 verse 4 – 14
on verse 5 refer to Psal 2: 7 ” Sanuel 7: 14
on verse 6 refer to Psalm: 97 verse 7
on verse 7 refer to Psalm: 104 verse 4
on verse 9 refer to Psalm 45 verse 6 and 7
on verse 12 refer to Psalm 102 verse 25 – 27
on verse 13 refer to Pasalm 110 verse 1Do not be mistaken Angels are servants of God
they themselves are NOT God
they are sent to help us
I don't mean to offend I just mean to enlighten but I can not lie to you on this
You should focus on Jesus
read about Jesus
Matthew 1 and 2. Luke 1 and 2
Matthew 4 verse 1 – 11
Mark 1 verse 12 – 13
Luke 4 verse 1 – 13
Matthew 8 and 9
Mark 6 verse 30 – 56
Luke 17 verse 11. 22 verse 50 – 51.
John 2 verse 1 – 11
Matthew 17 verse 1 – 13
Mark 9 verse 2 – 13
Luke 9 verse 28 – 36
Matthew 21 verse 12 – 13
John 2 verse 13 -17
Matthew 26 verse 17 – 30
Luke 22 verse 1 – 20
John 13
Matthew chapter 26 from verse 56 – chpater 27 verse 66
Mark 15
Luke chapter 22 from verse 66 – chapter 23 verse 56
John chapter 20 – 21
1 corinthians 15 vers 5 – 8
Matthew 2 verse 16 – 27. 26 verse 63 – 64
John 1 verse 14(I do not do this to mock you)
I suggest you purchase a study bible
And pray to God before and after you read the word remember Matthew 7 verse 7 and 8
The Bible is unlike any other book on the planet
Even if you know it word for word from Genesis to Revelation you will always learn something new EVERYTIME you reread it
Peace and God bless you
We all should not forget that the Devil Knows the Bible
And he is a master DECIEVER
The Bible speaks the truth about everything
So yea Arch Angel Michael is a very capable angel
BUT he is JUST an Angel
Nobody can compare God to anything
Texas it sounds like you have been decieved
Although many people have been
Know the Difference between Jesus and Michael
God and Arch Angel
The Bible makes it clear who Jesus is
So Yes God is Going to lead the Holy into battle
Armaggeddon is the Final Battle between the light and the Dark
Though there is going to be a war before then
And ALL the Holy (including michael) will take part in it
To end this War that Started in Heaven
Once and for all
Michael is NOT the Messiah Jesus is
Michael was not Crucified for our sins Jesus was
Michael is NOT God Jesus is
Michael Is but a servan of God. Jesus is God, The Son of the Father and one part of the Holy trininty
Though it may seem disrespectfulMichael is JUST an Angel
However capable they are Angels have limits God does not
How ever Intelligent they are their knowledge has Limits God does notGod is Infinite
So please stop this
Jesus is God
Michael is his servantNOTHING can compare to God
you should read John 1 verse 1 – 3
Focus on verse 3
God is God!!
Michael is JUST AN ANGEL although an Arch angel yes more capable than other angels but still
God is far beyond EVERYTHING
Though he came down to our level when he became one of us (humans)
Went threw what we went through
Ate with us
Cried with us
Spoke with us
Taught us
Healed us
Died to set us free
To spare us the WRATH OF GOD
Jesus faced that so we don't have to
Angels are often sent to HELP humans
but There is no comparison to ANYTHING and God
Satan was once an Angel Ezekial 26
Though it seems like i may be mocking you
I am not
Jesus is THE Messiah
Michael is an AngelNot sure how a new chief angel was chosen when morning star fell
Though an Arch Angel is JUST an angel
NOTHING ANYWHERE CAN COMPARE TO GOD
Seriously come back to the Light
The Light of the world is Jesus
Pray to God ask him to help you
Jesus said that I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father eccept by me
TRUTH
When he Promised the Holy Spirit. The Bible called him the Spirit of Truth
I know that God the Father does not lie.
His name is Higher than any other Name
A lot of people Call on Jesus all the time
Calling on Michael WILL NOT SAVE YOU
Hi FOJ,
Jesus said he is the son of God.
Paul tells us God was in him and he was our Lord.
But you teach that he is God Himself? So by whose authority?Sigh
Learn about the Holy Trinity
remember in the Bible when he said that “those who have seen me have seen the Father” (can't remember the verse right now)
God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit
Though they are different they are on and the same
Am physically to tired to explain properly
Ok
Jesus he is the Messiah and one part of God the Holy trinity
read John 1 verse 1 and 2
Read all the Bible has to Say about Jesus
Luke 2 verse 11, 14
Quote (david @ April 14 2009,23:13) Quote If you are to state he is Jesus you diminish the Son of God. Is it diminishing to call the son of God a malwahk?
Then I guess the Bible diminishes the son of God, in Nick's opinion.
Who is wrong–the Bible or Nick?
What is a malwahk?Quote What is a malwahk?
If memory serves me, that is the spelling T8 used of the Hebrew “Malakh”. (Or, maybe I was just spelling it wrong.)
Malakh is the word that literally means “messenger.” It is also translated “angel.”Quote I find it hillarious that you are admitting to making the same argument of a Trinitarian. –WJ
Quote Yes I found it surprising that David was making that argument as well. He sort of inadvertedly invalidated his own doctrine. –Is 1:18
If I invalidated my own doctrine, as you say Is 1:18, then I must have also invalidated yours. I was simply pointing out WJ's very own words, where he said: “The fact is: THEY DO NOT HAVE ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT THEY CAN POINT TO, SAYING CLEARLY THAT JESUS CHRIST IS MICHAEL. “
It is also undeniably a fact that trinitarians do not have a single scripture that they can point to and say: “Here is a scripture that proves the trinity.” For, if such a scripture existed, that would be the end of it.
The fact that no single scripture exists for either, does not in itself prove anything. And I didn't say that it did.Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 20 2009,20:22) Hi WJ,
Yes I found it surprising that David was making that argument as well. He sort of inadvertedly invalidated his own doctrine. I guess there is a key difference between the trinity and Jesus=michael doctrines though. To my mind the trinity resolves contradictions whereas the Jesus=Michael doctrine creates them.Blessings
Is 1:18
Here's the full quote. And yes, I still stand by this statement. Additionally, I think the inferential evidence for the trinity is vastly more impressive that that for Jesus = Michael. But that's not really claiming much! Scripturally, nothing tangible points to Jesus being Michael. Zero. Zilch. Nada.Hope you're well David.
As you have already admitted in the inference thread…
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2007,21:37) Hi Is 1.18,
If the whole value of what you are doing is that you are trying to show how I use inference too then I am sure you are right.Hi Is 1.18,
Are you using inference to try to prove that Jesus was wrong when he said he was the Son of God and that his God and the God of the Jews is his Father?Hmm
I would never Deny anything Jesus said
I know he can be trusted, he cannot lie
Often when Jesus Speaks in the Bible he said “I tell you the truth”
Not sure what inference means
Jehovah is God (Father)
Jesus is God (Son)
Holy Spirit is God (Holy Spirit)Yes he is Gods son
But he himself is God
Like the name Follower of Jesus
That is what I try to do. Follow Jesus
I don't like to label myself with titles such as
Methodist, Nazerene, Anglican, Baptist etc…
For I believe we are all one in the Body of Christ
Though the Holy Trinity
Although 3 they are one
Each is God
It's hard to explain
Jesus is God
Sin is an offence against God
therefore only God can forgive sins
Through God the Son. Jesus Christ we are forgiven, redeemed, set free
By Gods Grace we are saved
For God came down
became Human
Ate with us
Cried with us
Suffered with us
Taught us
Then died to take OUR punishment,
For all had sinned and have fallen short of the Glory of God
Gods standard is Perfection
NOBODY can prove God wrong
He is always right
Even though we may not agree with him, and how he does things
Often it is our (humans) misinterpretation of the word that leads to complications
So try to Pray before and or after you read the Bible
To ask God to give you insight and understanding into his word Matthew 7 verse 8
Peace and God bless all of you
I digress
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