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Hi Texas,
Do your personal views of scripture make it possible to be sure of something that is not written?[col2]Quote In 1 Thessalonians 4:16 it's quite apparent that the archangel's voice is in fact heralding the descent of Yeshua, they are two different identities. Nothing in the text indicates they are the same. Nothing. Is 1:18,
““Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is. Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:25-29)
“The dead will hear the voice of [Jesus] and ….will live.” They “will hear [Jesus'] voice and come out.”
So, whose voice is said to raise the dead?
1 Thess 4:16: “because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.”
It is a very interesting point (and one I haven't heard) that WJ raises, about descending “with an archangels voice” and “with God's trumpet” and to be consistent, we should believe that if he is the archangel, we also have to believe he is God.
WJ, what would you say to this:
John 5:25,28 “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God.”
So in 1 thessalonians, its the archangel's voice, but in John 5, it is the voice of the Son of God! One cannot be wrong and the other right.
In both Thessalonians and John we see that the voice causes the resurrection of life. The dead in Christ will rise when they hear His voice! This is the same event and so it seems Jesus and Michael must be the same person.
“weak”–Is 1:18
The fact that you did not respond tells me your argument against it is “weak.”
So, whose voice is said to raise the dead?
Isaiah 1:18, how would you answer the question above? It's a simple question. Yet, you won't give a simple answer, will you?
Quote I believe any sane person can see the shallow nature of the Watchtower reasoning. The fact is: THEY DO NOT HAVE ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT THEY CAN POINT TO, SAYING CLEARLY THAT JESUS CHRIST IS MICHAEL. Do not let the JWs get away from this fact, but press them on it. –WJ
I find this argument extraordinarily odd and bizarre given your belief in the trinity.
I believe many trinitarians on here (and me as well on the other side) have admitted that there is no single scripture that clearly says God is a trinity. Yet, you believe it.
I guess this means, according to your very own argument, you must walk away from that belief.
Quote (david @ April 20 2009,10:15) “weak”–Is 1:18 The fact that you did not respond tells me your argument against it is “weak.”
So, whose voice is said to raise the dead?
Isaiah 1:18, how would you answer the question above? It's a simple question. Yet, you won't give a simple answer, will you?
Well Yeshua's voice will, but what on Earth does that have to do with 1 Thess 4:16??Can you give us something SOLID David?
Quote (david @ April 20 2009,10:17) Quote I believe any sane person can see the shallow nature of the Watchtower reasoning. The fact is: THEY DO NOT HAVE ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT THEY CAN POINT TO, SAYING CLEARLY THAT JESUS CHRIST IS MICHAEL. Do not let the JWs get away from this fact, but press them on it. –WJ
I find this argument extraordinarily odd and bizarre given your belief in the trinity.
I believe many trinitarians on here (and me as well on the other side) have admitted that there is no single scripture that clearly says God is a trinity. Yet, you believe it.
I guess this means, according to your very own argument, you must walk away from that belief.
Wouldn't this work both ways though David? The difference being that even the inferencial evidence for the Jesus=Michael theory is…well…non-existent. The only thing holding it together is presupposition and faulty reasoning.Hi Is 1.18,
The fact that the JWs declare such doctrines based on purely human reasoning and without scriptural proof teaches about their approach.Quote (david @ April 20 2009,10:13) It is a very interesting point (and one I haven't heard) that WJ raises, about descending “with an archangels voice” and “with God's trumpet” and to be consistent, we should believe that if he is the archangel, we also have to believe he is God. WJ, what would you say to this:
John 5:25,28 “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God.”
So in 1 thessalonians, its the archangel's voice, but in John 5, it is the voice of the Son of God! One cannot be wrong and the other right.
In both Thessalonians and John we see that the voice causes the resurrection of life. The dead in Christ will rise when they hear His voice! This is the same event and so it seems Jesus and Michael must be the same person.
Hello David! Here's an argument for them!It would appear to me that you are overlooking some very important scriptural facts. Now, I believe that you said, we could also view Jesus as Jehovah God because Jesus descends with the voice of an Archangel, with God's Trumpet. So because he has God's Trumpet we can view Jesus as Jehovah. Not so! Why, you may ask? For the following reasons: We both know that Jesus was 'appointed by God' {Acts 17:31} and Jesus was 'sent by God' to 'do his Fathers will'! {John 4:34; 6:38; 7:16,29; 16:27; 5:30 ;17:8}
Consider now, what is written in John 3:35 where it tells us this: “The Father loves the Son and has given ALL THINGS INTO HIS HANDS.” The same statement is made at John 13:3! So, wouldn't those ALL THINGS include the Trumpet of God? I have every reason to believe that, that is the case! At John 17:10 we find this information: …”and ALL THINGS that are mine are yours AND YOURS MINE and I have been glorified in them.” So the Trumpet of God, according to those words, as well as belonging to Jehovah, belonged also to the Christ; so he could have descended with that Trumped and not been God himself! Further to the Christ having all things given into his hands; the Apostle Paul takes it a step further, by saying: “ALL THINGS YOU SUBJECTED UNDER HIS FEET. For in that he subjected all things to him {including the Trumpet of God} {God} left NOTHING that is not subject to him…” {1 Peter 3:22}
Then too, it should be considered what Jesus himself stated at Matthew 28:18 “And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “ALL AUTHORITY has been give me in HEAVEN and on the earth.” So, from all of this, you should be able to see that your reasoning is quite wrong! Texas!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2009,06:45) Hi Texas,
Do your personal views of scripture make it possible to be sure of something that is not written?[col2]
Nick Hassan!
Why not? Yours do! Texas!Hi texas,
You really must shake the dust from your feet of the superficiality of JW dogmas.
Find it written and we can discuss it.
The rest is flimflamQuote (david @ April 20 2009,10:13) It is a very interesting point (and one I haven't heard) that WJ raises, about descending “with an archangels voice” and “with God's trumpet” and to be consistent, we should believe that if he is the archangel, we also have to believe he is God. WJ, what would you say to this:
John 5:25,28 “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God.”
So in 1 thessalonians, its the archangel's voice, but in John 5, it is the voice of the Son of God! One cannot be wrong and the other right.
In both Thessalonians and John we see that the voice causes the resurrection of life. The dead in Christ will rise when they hear His voice! This is the same event and so it seems Jesus and Michael must be the same person.
Hello David!
Now, tell me how they could hear the voice of Jesus when Jesus has died to take away the sin of the World? As you already know Jesus was resurrected in the Spirit, as a spirit angel. No, they have heard the voice of Michael who was Christ Jesus when he walked this earth, so hearing the voice of Michael, they have also heard the voice of the Christ! Texas!Quote (Texas @ April 20 2009,10:49) As you already know Jesus was resurrected in the Spirit, as a spirit angel.
This statement raises some questions:-1. What happaned to the physical body of Yeshua in the tomb post resurrection?
2. How is it that Yeshua was able to eat post resurrection (Luke 24:42-43)?
3. How do you explain the spear wound and nail holes Thomas was able to put his fingers into (Luke 24:51; John 20:27)?
Jesus Himself refutes this notion in Luke 24:39
“See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
I think it's great that you have left the Watchtower Texas but it seems to be that you still hold tightly to a lot of their eroneous doctrines. You should examine these closely in light of exegetical Biblical revelation. An honest examination will see them exposed for what they are – Charles Taze Russell's nutty ideas that have no real scriptual underpinning.
Quote (Texas @ April 19 2009,23:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2009,08:04) Quote (Texas @ April 19 2009,00:24) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 18 2009,20:13) “preponderance of scriptural evidence”. Sorry Texas but that is laughable. Seriously. The “evidence” you speak of is so tenuous as to be summarily dismissed by almost all knowledgeable Bible students outside of the Watchtower, and for them it's a presupposition. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16 it's quite apparent that the archangel's voice is in fact heralding the descent of Yeshua, they are two different identities. Nothing in the text indicates they are the same. Nothing.
Is1:18!Nowhere in the Bible does it tell you by using your name, that you personally will receive everlasting life, now does it? It doesn't do that for anyone else on this Board either. Yet all of you believe that opportunity is open to all of you. Show me, in the Bible where you are named by name, or anyone else on this Board is named by name, because it directly states that. It doesn't, now does it? Yet you believe that opportunity is open to all of you, now don't you? You establish that belief by what the preponderance of scriptural evidence says about it, is that not correct? So, then, why do you need the Bible to state directly that Jesus is Michael the archangel?
If you accept the one, that isn't directly stated, and you do that! Then, tell me why you do not accept the scriptural evidence that points to Jesus as being Michael the Archangel? Even though that, too, is not directly stated! Tell us all why you do that, because I feel certain that there are others on this Board would appreciate your answer to that! So, explain to us what your reason for doing that is!
By the way, you'd best read that scripture again that tells you that Jesus 'descends with the voice of an Archangel' because, I feel certain that there is something that you have missed! Texas!
Hi TexasJesus is the Image of God. There is no scripture anywhere that says that Angels were created in the “image of God”.
Here is something for the readers on this subject.
“Answer
Hello Val. I want to offer my sincere apologies for taking 5 days to answer your question. Up until yesterday, I had not been on the computer for a few days. I hope this answer is not too late in coming, especially since you said the JWs are coming back in the next week or so. I hope it will be of some help.I will say that I have seen and read their so-called “evidence” for Jesus being Michael. Needless to say, there is NO SCRIPTURE that they can point to. Instead, they use alot of presumption and tortured reasoning to arrive at their conclusions. They will use primarily the Scripture in 1 Thess. 4:16, where it says….
“For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:”
From this verse, they say that Christ will shout with the archangel's voice, so therefore, He must be the archangel. There are a number of things to point out here….
First, it does not say that Jesus is the One Who is doing the shouting. It says He will descend WITH a shout. The word “with” means “accompanied by”. For example….”I went to the store WITH my wife.” Does that mean that I am the same person as my wife? No. It means that she accompanied me to the store. In fact, there are some verses that clearly say that, when Jesus comes, all of the angels will be coming WITH Him.
Check out the following verses: Matthew 25:31, Mark 8:38. It makes sense that the arrival and coming of a King would be announced by a loyal subject, which in this case, will be Michael the Archangel. There will be a shout from Michael, and then the blowing of the trumpet to announce the King's arrival in the rapture.
Suffice it to say, there is nothing in 1 Thess. 4:16 that states that Michael and Jesus are the same Person.
Secondly, the JWs only seem to read the part of 1 Thess. 4:16 that suits their purpose. If we read the whole verse, and apply their logic, then we have proof that Jesus is also God, for the very next statement says that Jesus comes “WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD”. Now, if we use JW reasoning, and say that Jesus' coming WITH the voice of the archangel means that He IS the archangel, then we must also conclude that Jesus' coming WITH the trump of God means that He is God. Of course, JWs would strongly disagree, but if their logic is to be used, then they must be consistent and interpret the whole verse the same way.
Of course, it is plain that both the voice of the archangel and the blowing of the trumpet are simply announcements of Christ's coming, and neither are done by Christ Himself.
Also, the JWs make some strange connections from the book of Revelation, primarily chapter 12, where Michael is said to have angels under His command.
“And there was war in heaven: Michael and HIS ANGELS fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels:”
Then, the JWs find other verses that say that Jesus has angels under His command, and arrive at the conclusion that, because they both are said to have angels under their command, then they must be the same Person. I am sure that you can see the ridiculous nature of that logic. A military commander may have soldiers under his command, and he can rightly call them “his soldiers”. However, the President of the United States is the “Commander in Chief” of the military, and therefore, he can also refer to them as “his soldiers”. This does NOT mean that the military commander and the President are the same individual.
I believe any sane person can see the shallow nature of the Watchtower reasoning. The fact is: THEY DO NOT HAVE ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT THEY CAN POINT TO, SAYING CLEARLY THAT JESUS CHRIST IS MICHAEL. Do not let the JWs get away from this fact, but press them on it.
You said….”l use by Bible regularly and can find nothing to substantiate thier beliefs, but am well aware that they are able to take scripture out of context.”
The reason you can find nothing in the Bible to substantiate their beliefs, is because it isn't there! And yes, they do take Scripture out of context. But on this particular subject, even they have a difficult time locating Scriptures to take out of context. The reasonings I listed above, are about the best arguments that they have.
There is one other argument that they may use, so I will briefly discuss it. They argue that “archangel” is singular, and means that there is only one archangel, making him unique. Then, they assume this must be Jesus Christ.
Actually, the Bible does not teach that there is only one archangel. True, there is only one archangel in Scripture THAT IS NAMED, but that does not mean that others do not exist. In Daniel chapter 10, we find some evidence that others may indeed exist. In verse 13, we are told that Michael is “ONE OF the chief princes”. Since “archangel” means “chief angel, or prince”, then w
e see that Michael is only “ONE OF” the chief princes. It does not say he is the ONLY one.So why would others not be named? Well, if we look at verse 21 of Daniel chapter 10, we see that Michael is named because he is the archangel assigned to God's people, Israel. He is called “your prince”. Since most of the Old Testament revolves around the nation of Israel, it becomes understandable why only Michael is named, due to his role as prince of God's people.
In fact, there are numerous Scriptures that prove that THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY THAT JESUS AND MICHAEL ARE THE SAME PERSON.
Please research the following passages:
Jude 9- In this passage, we find that Michael the archangel will not bring an accusation against Satan, and would not rebuke Satan under his own authority, but said “the Lord rebuke thee”.
Truly now, when did Jesus Christ EVER refrain from accusing Satan, or rebuking him under His own power? Never! Jesus had all authority, and Satan and his demons fled from Jesus' word. Jesus never had to say “the Lord rebuke thee”, because HE WAS THE LORD! Michael, however, could not say this.
But I believe the best evidence, by far, that Jesus is not Michael, is found by reading Hebrews chapter one. The very theme of this Scripture is to show the SUPERIORITY of Jesus Christ, over the angels. Look at the following verses in Hebrews chapter 1….
v. 4- Jesus is “so much better than the angels”
v. 5- Jesus is contrasted with the angels of heaven, in that He is the only begotten of the Father.
v. 6- God the Father gives the command for ALL of the angels of heaven to WORSHIP Christ.
This verse MUST NOT be overlooked when speaking to JWs. God the Father has NEVER commanded the worship of an angel. And the fact that God commands ALL angels to worship Christ, would have to include Michael himself, because Michael is an angel. Therefore, Michael is NOT Jesus Christ, but is one of the angels that worships Jesus Christ.
v. 8- God the Father refers to Jesus (The Son) as “God”.
When did the Father ever call an angel “God”?
v. 10-12- God the Father speaks of Jesus (the Son) as the Creator of all things. (See also John 1:3).
v. 13-14- Again, Jesus is contrasted with the angels, in regards to his authority.
In chapter 2 of Hebrews, in verse 5 we find a very interesting statement….
Heb. 2:5- “For unto the angels hath He not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.”
According to this passage, angels will not be the rulers of the world to come. But we know that Jesus Christ WILL be, meaning that He cannot be an angel.
In Heb. 2:9, we are told that Christ was made “a little lower than the angels”, for the purpose of becoming human and dying for our sins. After His resurrection, He was again exalted to His previous position as being “SO MUCH BETTER than the angels” (Heb. 1:4). So, Christ has occupied the position of being BETTER than the angels, and He has also occupied the position of being a “little lower” than the angels. But not one Scripture ANYWHERE states that He has occupied the position of an angel.
Hebrews 2:16 says that Christ “took not on Him the nature of angels;”
Though this Scripture is a reference to His becoming human, NOWHERE is there a passage saying that Christ has the nature of angels.
In discussing this topic with a JW, you will want to remember the following:
1. There is NO SCRIPTURE that these people can give you in support of their view. NONE! Keep pressing the JW on this issue. The article the JWs will give you in support of their position uses alot of words like “evidently, logically, probable, etc.” In other words, THERE IS NO CONCRETE PROOF!!
2. You will also want to point out to the JW that, since this subject deals with the Person of Jesus Christ Himself, it is a VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE! It is rather odd that an issue of this importance would have so few Scriptures to support it.
If Jesus were truly Michael, it seems strange that the Word of God would contain no clear statement to this effect. It would certainly seem that God would want this made clear, if it were so.
3. Point out to the JW that he rejects the idea of Jesus being God, although there are many Scriptures stating this. Yet, he has NO SCRIPTURE stating HIS belief about Jesus, namely, that Jesus is Michael.
So, that means that the JW rejects what the Bible DOES say about Jesus, and believes something that the Bible DOES NOT say ANYWHERE about Jesus.
This is a STRONG indicator that the JWs have the wrong “Jesus”, because their “Jesus” cannot be found in the Bible.
4. You will also want to point out to the JW a very embarrassing fact….His religion taught years ago that Michael was the POPE OF ROME! If he doubts this, tell him to research the 1917 Watchtower publication “THE FINISHED MYSTERY”.
It is hard to trust this religion to tell us accurately who Jesus is, when they cannot even distinguish Him from the Pope. It is far better to just go by what the Bible says about Him.
Ask the JW to read Hebrews chapter one for himself, and then tell you that he still believes that Jesus Christ is an angel. You cannot honestly read this passage, and still arrive at that conclusion. Impossible.”
WJ
Worshipping Jesus!
Consider what is written at Matthew 12:36,37 because it applies to your long list of reasonings here!“I tell you that every unprofitable saying THAT MEN SPEAK, they will render an account CONCERNING IT on Judgment Day; for BY YOUR WORDS you will be declared righteous, and BY YOUR WORDS YOU WILL BE CONDEMNED.”
Something to think about, isn't it? Texaas!
Hi TexasShucks, you beat me to the punch.
I am thinking the same about you!
WJ
Hi Texas
Quote (Texas @ April 20 2009,01:04) For God SENT FORTH HIS SON INTO THE WORLD, not for him to judge the World, but for the World to be saved through him.” {John 3:16,17} So, that means that when Jesus was in heaven with his father, he was an angel a Spirit being! He couldn't have been anything else, because 'flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom.” {1 Corinthians 15:50}
Ok, would you agree that if he was an Angel in heaven then he would have the “nature of Angels”?If you do then when the scriptures say…
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the “exact representation of his being“, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3
That would mean all the Angels are the “exact representation of God’s being”.
Is there a scripture anywhere that says Angels were made in God’s image?
Jesus is “The image of the Invisible God” and not the Image of an Angel!
WJ
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 20 2009,11:18) Quote (Texas @ April 20 2009,10:49) As you already know Jesus was resurrected in the Spirit, as a spirit angel.
This statement raises some questions:-1. What happaned to the physical body of Yeshua in the tomb post resurrection?
2. How is it that Yeshua was able to eat post resurrection (Luke 24:42-43)?
3. How do you explain the spear wound and nail holes Thomas was able to put his fingers into (Luke 24:51; John 20:27)?
Jesus Himself refutes this notion in Luke 24:39
“See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
I think it's great that you have left the Watchtower Texas but it seems to be that you still hold tightly to a lot of their eroneous doctrines. You should examine these closely in light of exegetical Biblical revelation. An honest examination will see them exposed for what they are – Charles Taze Russell's nutty ideas that have no real scriptual underpinning.
Hi Isa 1:18Not only that, but if he is now an Angel then he could not be a man.
Before you get your feathers fluffed. We believe Jesus is God and a man, his Spirit which is God dwells in man for it is Jesus Spirit that lives in us, and we have plenty of evidence that God dwells in man.
But we have no evidence that any Angel of God has dwelled in man at anytime.
God is not conforming man into the Image of an angel, but into his very own Image!
WJ
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