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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2009,13:18) Quote (Texas @ April 15 2009,11:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 15 2009,07:42) Hi Texas,
No you have proved your faith in men and implication and logic ahead of what is written.
Such is no form of truth or proof.Daniel 10:13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Hello nick!
Okay! Who was this Michael the chief Prince. Can you show conclusively that it wasn't Jesus in angelic form? I doubt it!
My faith is not in men at all, but yours is! There isn't a bloody man on this earth, I'd trust as far as I could throw a Grand Piano!To me the Bible is sufficient truth and proved everything I said! You're just too blind to see it! That's your problem though. I have a feeling that your eyes are going tp be opened wide just prior to Armageddon! Too late to do you any good though! Tough Luck Pal! Tough luck! Texas
Hi TexasThe final reference to the name Michael is in Revelation chapter 12, verse 7 where “Michael and his angels” fight “the dragon and his angels.” The most logical way to interpret this passage (remember our rule of hermeneutics) is as a description of warfare between two armies of angels, each led by an angel—Michael leading one army and Satan (the dragon) leading the other.
Also, the book of Revelation refers to Jesus as “Jesus Christ” seven times, “Jesus” six times, “Christ” four times, “Lord Jesus” once, and “Lord Jesus Christ” once. Why would the author of the book of Revelation suddenly call Jesus Christ by the name Michael? It makes no sense—especially since there is nothing anywhere else in the Bible that would support a sudden name change like that.
So for thirty years you taught as a Watchtower witness which you now condemn as “The false Church”, and now you think that you have unambiguous truth that Jesus is Michael?
Thats laughable!
WJ
Worshipping Jesus! Oh! Brother!It makes no sense to you, probably because you're not granted to understand the Holy Writings! That just might be, because of your arrogant attitude! Naturally Jehovah would withhold knowledge of his Holy Book from the likes of you! The same thing applies to many others on this Board, who believe that they already know it all, when in reality they know absolutely nothing at all about Jehovah's marvelous Book! They only THINK that they do! Read over Matthew 13:10-15! You will learn that, that is talking about your kind!
Texas!Quote My question is, does it really matter if we know? Tell me about it. It seems to matter immensely to people like Nick. I think the reason is, he want's JW's to be wrong and this seems to be something that isn't based on definite extraordinarily clear scriptures. To JW's, this isn't something that is in any way a primary teaching or main belief. It's hardly discussed….until you come to a place like this where people want to knock you down to lift themselves up….then, they bring it up every 2 months. This is the first thread that was started (out of like 5 threads) that was started by someone who actually believes this. Usually, the threads are started by people that want to show JW's are wrong about Michael and hence wrong about everything. Yet, all we can say is that the evidence indicates (but does not clearly state) that Jesus is Michael.
Quote Hi david,
One scripture that is translated as messenger seems a weak basis for any sort of doctrine but then the JWs only loosely use scripture anyway prefering weak logic and inference.Nick, you are master of creating false beliefs and then arguing against them. This obviously is not the basis. Nice misdirection though.
As you know, there are about 8 or 10 scriptural reasons why we believe this. But because you like to jump around and because I found it so interesting that T8 (the moderator) actually mentioned that Jesus is called an angel, I thought we would start there. But you cannot even see that. So what would be the point of discussing anything else if you can't even acknowledge something that is actually stated?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2009,13:18) Quote (Texas @ April 15 2009,11:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 15 2009,07:42) Hi Texas,
No you have proved your faith in men and implication and logic ahead of what is written.
Such is no form of truth or proof.Daniel 10:13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Hello nick!
Okay! Who was this Michael the chief Prince. Can you show conclusively that it wasn't Jesus in angelic form? I doubt it!
My faith is not in men at all, but yours is! There isn't a bloody man on this earth, I'd trust as far as I could throw a Grand Piano!To me the Bible is sufficient truth and proved everything I said! You're just too blind to see it! That's your problem though. I have a feeling that your eyes are going tp be opened wide just prior to Armageddon! Too late to do you any good though! Tough Luck Pal! Tough luck! Texas
Hi TexasThe final reference to the name Michael is in Revelation chapter 12, verse 7 where “Michael and his angels” fight “the dragon and his angels.” The most logical way to interpret this passage (remember our rule of hermeneutics) is as a description of warfare between two armies of angels, each led by an angel—Michael leading one army and Satan (the dragon) leading the other.
Also, the book of Revelation refers to Jesus as “Jesus Christ” seven times, “Jesus” six times, “Christ” four times, “Lord Jesus” once, and “Lord Jesus Christ” once. Why would the author of the book of Revelation suddenly call Jesus Christ by the name Michael? It makes no sense—especially since there is nothing anywhere else in the Bible that would support a sudden name change like that.
So for thirty years you taught as a Watchtower witness which you now condemn as “The false Church”, and now you think that you have unambiguous truth that Jesus is Michael?
Thats laughable!
WJ
Worshipping Jesus!
No! I really believe that I supplied enough scriptural information to show that Michael and Christ Jesus are one and the same person. Now daniel did point out that “When Michael STANDS UP” {or takes heavenly rulership,} for that is what Daniel was talking about, for who was it that was the coming King of God's Kingdom? Was that not Christ Jesus? Did Jehovah all of a sudden change his mind and give the Kingdom over to someone called Michael, who wasn't Christ Jesus? Now, really, does that make any sense to you at all? NO! You're wrong! But you believe as you will! I will not try to change your mind. If you really feel that I didn't supply enough information to prove my point, what else can I do? I supplied all of the information that there was on that subject, and I can do no more, so believe anything you wish to believe on that subject! I can do no more! Texas!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2009,13:18) Quote (Texas @ April 15 2009,11:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 15 2009,07:42) Hi Texas,
No you have proved your faith in men and implication and logic ahead of what is written.
Such is no form of truth or proof.Daniel 10:13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Hello nick!
Okay! Who was this Michael the chief Prince. Can you show conclusively that it wasn't Jesus in angelic form? I doubt it!
My faith is not in men at all, but yours is! There isn't a bloody man on this earth, I'd trust as far as I could throw a Grand Piano!To me the Bible is sufficient truth and proved everything I said! You're just too blind to see it! That's your problem though. I have a feeling that your eyes are going tp be opened wide just prior to Armageddon! Too late to do you any good though! Tough Luck Pal! Tough luck! Texas
Hi TexasThe final reference to the name Michael is in Revelation chapter 12, verse 7 where “Michael and his angels” fight “the dragon and his angels.” The most logical way to interpret this passage (remember our rule of hermeneutics) is as a description of warfare between two armies of angels, each led by an angel—Michael leading one army and Satan (the dragon) leading the other.
Also, the book of Revelation refers to Jesus as “Jesus Christ” seven times, “Jesus” six times, “Christ” four times, “Lord Jesus” once, and “Lord Jesus Christ” once. Why would the author of the book of Revelation suddenly call Jesus Christ by the name Michael? It makes no sense—especially since there is nothing anywhere else in the Bible that would support a sudden name change like that.
So for thirty years you taught as a Watchtower witness which you now condemn as “The false Church”, and now you think that you have unambiguous truth that Jesus is Michael?
Thats laughable!
WJ
Worshipping Jesus!
No! I do not believe that it is I that have unambiguous truths! Those truths belong to Jehovah God, not me! I use those truths to back up everything I say, so if I prove to be wrong in my reasoning, then the Bible is wrong in what it teaches me, and I really don't believe that is true!As far as leaving and condemning the Society as a false religious body after so many years! What else could I do after I learned that they was not what they made claim to being? I had offended Jehovah long enough by remaining in there, and I simply could not continue to do that any longer. Besides being among them brought great unhappiness into my life. Because of their influence my wife left our marriage arrangement, and that brought me even more unhappiness!
Actually, I'm happy that I'm out of there now, because now I'm free to ask questions, and in there I wasn't! Questioning the Governing Body was a dangerous stand to take while you were in there, because disagreeing with them could get you marked and shunned and eventually disfellowshipped! Yes! I'm very happy that I'm gone from there! Texas!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2009,09:43) Hi texas,
How do you know your reasoning is sound when Scripture does not say what you say?
Hello Nick!Even though it is not directly stated that Jesus is Michael, the preponderance of scriptural evidence points to Jesus as being Michael the archangel. Now if as Paul said in thessalonians, that the Christ descends with “the voice of an archangel” then who is this archangel that is doing the descending? That scripture alone tells us that it is Jesus who is this archangel, so that scripture all by itself tells us it is Jesus who is this archangel {1 Thessalonians 4:16}
Now how could Jesus be using 'the voice of an archange', and not be Michael, the archangel? So, that reasoning is as sound as you can get, and as I have already stated, the preponderance of scriptural evidence all points to Jesus as being Michael the Archangel, even though it is not directly stated. In this case, it doesn't have to be! Texas!
“preponderance of scriptural evidence”. Sorry Texas but that is laughable. Seriously. The “evidence” you speak of is so tenuous as to be summarily dismissed by almost all knowledgeable Bible students outside of the Watchtower, and for them it's a presupposition. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16 it's quite apparent that the archangel's voice is in fact heralding the descent of Yeshua, they are two different identities. Nothing in the text indicates they are the same. Nothing.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 18 2009,20:13) “preponderance of scriptural evidence”. Sorry Texas but that is laughable. Seriously. The “evidence” you speak of is so tenuous as to be summarily dismissed by almost all knowledgeable Bible students outside of the Watchtower, and for them it's a presupposition. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16 it's quite apparent that the archangel's voice is in fact heralding the descent of Yeshua, they are two different identities. Nothing in the text indicates they are the same. Nothing.
Is1:18!Nowhere in the Bible does it tell you by using your name, that you personally will receive everlasting life, now does it? It doesn't do that for anyone else on this Board either. Yet all of you believe that opportunity is open to all of you. Show me, in the Bible where you are named by name, or anyone else on this Board is named by name, because it directly states that. It doesn't, now does it? Yet you believe that opportunity is open to all of you, now don't you? You establish that belief by what the preponderance of scriptural evidence says about it, is that not correct? So, then, why do you need the Bible to state directly that Jesus is Michael the archangel?
If you accept the one, that isn't directly stated, and you do that! Then, tell me why you do not accept the scriptural evidence that points to Jesus as being Michael the Archangel? Even though that, too, is not directly stated! Tell us all why you do that, because I feel certain that there are others on this Board would appreciate your answer to that! So, explain to us what your reason for doing that is!
By the way, you'd best read that scripture again that tells you that Jesus 'descends with the voice of an Archangel' because, I feel certain that there is something that you have missed! Texas!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2009,13:00) So David,
One verse that says Jesus is Michael and we on our way.
None??Another false trail.
Nick Hassan!
One verse that says Nick Hassan will inherit everlasting life! Just one Nick, and 'we'll be on our way''!You, as I said to you before, will establish your beliefs by the scriptures that tell you, the opportunity to inherit everlasting life is there for all of us. But those who will inherit that life are not named by name, you must arrive at that conclusion by weighing the preponderance of scriptual evidence that proves that to be true. Without that scriptural evidence, you would never be able to prove it, now would you? Now, with that in mind, why do you balk at Jesus being the Archagel when all of that said evidence shows that he is. Again not directly stated, but neither is it directly stated that Nick Hassan will inherit everlasting life, nor does the Bible identify anyone now by name, alive at this time, that will inherit that life! You simply want everything your way, don't you Nick? Texas!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2009,13:00) So David,
One verse that says Jesus is Michael and we on our way.
None??Another false trail.
Nick Hassan!
One verse that says Nick Hassan will inherit everlasting life! Just one Nick, and 'we'll be on our way''!You, as I said to you before, will establish your beliefs by the scriptures that tell you, the opportunity to inherit everlasting life is there for all of us. But those who will inherit that life are not named by name, you must arrive at that conclusion by weighing the preponderance of scriptual evidence that proves that to be true. Without that scriptural evidence, you would never be able to prove it, now would you? Now, with that in mind, why do you balk at Jesus being the Archagel when all of that said evidence shows that he is. Again not directly stated, but neither is it directly stated that Nick Hassan will inherit everlasting life, nor does the Bible identify anyone now by name, alive at this time, that will inherit that life! You simply want everything your way, don't you Nick? Texas!
Quote (Texas @ April 19 2009,00:24) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 18 2009,20:13) “preponderance of scriptural evidence”. Sorry Texas but that is laughable. Seriously. The “evidence” you speak of is so tenuous as to be summarily dismissed by almost all knowledgeable Bible students outside of the Watchtower, and for them it's a presupposition. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16 it's quite apparent that the archangel's voice is in fact heralding the descent of Yeshua, they are two different identities. Nothing in the text indicates they are the same. Nothing.
Is1:18!Nowhere in the Bible does it tell you by using your name, that you personally will receive everlasting life, now does it? It doesn't do that for anyone else on this Board either. Yet all of you believe that opportunity is open to all of you. Show me, in the Bible where you are named by name, or anyone else on this Board is named by name, because it directly states that. It doesn't, now does it? Yet you believe that opportunity is open to all of you, now don't you? You establish that belief by what the preponderance of scriptural evidence says about it, is that not correct? So, then, why do you need the Bible to state directly that Jesus is Michael the archangel?
If you accept the one, that isn't directly stated, and you do that! Then, tell me why you do not accept the scriptural evidence that points to Jesus as being Michael the Archangel? Even though that, too, is not directly stated! Tell us all why you do that, because I feel certain that there are others on this Board would appreciate your answer to that! So, explain to us what your reason for doing that is!
By the way, you'd best read that scripture again that tells you that Jesus 'descends with the voice of an Archangel' because, I feel certain that there is something that you have missed! Texas!
Hi TexasJesus is the Image of God. There is no scripture anywhere that says that Angels were created in the “image of God”.
Here is something for the readers on this subject.
“Answer
Hello Val. I want to offer my sincere apologies for taking 5 days to answer your question. Up until yesterday, I had not been on the computer for a few days. I hope this answer is not too late in coming, especially since you said the JWs are coming back in the next week or so. I hope it will be of some help.I will say that I have seen and read their so-called “evidence” for Jesus being Michael. Needless to say, there is NO SCRIPTURE that they can point to. Instead, they use alot of presumption and tortured reasoning to arrive at their conclusions. They will use primarily the Scripture in 1 Thess. 4:16, where it says….
“For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:”
From this verse, they say that Christ will shout with the archangel's voice, so therefore, He must be the archangel. There are a number of things to point out here….
First, it does not say that Jesus is the One Who is doing the shouting. It says He will descend WITH a shout. The word “with” means “accompanied by”. For example….”I went to the store WITH my wife.” Does that mean that I am the same person as my wife? No. It means that she accompanied me to the store. In fact, there are some verses that clearly say that, when Jesus comes, all of the angels will be coming WITH Him.
Check out the following verses: Matthew 25:31, Mark 8:38. It makes sense that the arrival and coming of a King would be announced by a loyal subject, which in this case, will be Michael the Archangel. There will be a shout from Michael, and then the blowing of the trumpet to announce the King's arrival in the rapture.
Suffice it to say, there is nothing in 1 Thess. 4:16 that states that Michael and Jesus are the same Person.
Secondly, the JWs only seem to read the part of 1 Thess. 4:16 that suits their purpose. If we read the whole verse, and apply their logic, then we have proof that Jesus is also God, for the very next statement says that Jesus comes “WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD”. Now, if we use JW reasoning, and say that Jesus' coming WITH the voice of the archangel means that He IS the archangel, then we must also conclude that Jesus' coming WITH the trump of God means that He is God. Of course, JWs would strongly disagree, but if their logic is to be used, then they must be consistent and interpret the whole verse the same way.
Of course, it is plain that both the voice of the archangel and the blowing of the trumpet are simply announcements of Christ's coming, and neither are done by Christ Himself.
Also, the JWs make some strange connections from the book of Revelation, primarily chapter 12, where Michael is said to have angels under His command.
“And there was war in heaven: Michael and HIS ANGELS fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels:”
Then, the JWs find other verses that say that Jesus has angels under His command, and arrive at the conclusion that, because they both are said to have angels under their command, then they must be the same Person. I am sure that you can see the ridiculous nature of that logic. A military commander may have soldiers under his command, and he can rightly call them “his soldiers”. However, the President of the United States is the “Commander in Chief” of the military, and therefore, he can also refer to them as “his soldiers”. This does NOT mean that the military commander and the President are the same individual.
I believe any sane person can see the shallow nature of the Watchtower reasoning. The fact is: THEY DO NOT HAVE ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT THEY CAN POINT TO, SAYING CLEARLY THAT JESUS CHRIST IS MICHAEL. Do not let the JWs get away from this fact, but press them on it.
You said….”l use by Bible regularly and can find nothing to substantiate thier beliefs, but am well aware that they are able to take scripture out of context.”
The reason you can find nothing in the Bible to substantiate their beliefs, is because it isn't there! And yes, they do take Scripture out of context. But on this particular subject, even they have a difficult time locating Scriptures to take out of context. The reasonings I listed above, are about the best arguments that they have.
There is one other argument that they may use, so I will briefly discuss it. They argue that “archangel” is singular, and means that there is only one archangel, making him unique. Then, they assume this must be Jesus Christ.
Actually, the Bible does not teach that there is only one archangel. True, there is only one archangel in Scripture THAT IS NAMED, but that does not mean that others do not exist. In Daniel chapter 10, we find some evidence that others may indeed exist. In verse 13, we are told that Michael is “ONE OF the chief princes”. Since “archangel” means “chief angel, or prince”, then we see that Michael is only “ONE OF” the chief princes. It does not say he is the ONLY one.
So why would others not be named? Well, if we look at verse 21 of Daniel chapter 10, we see that Michael is named because he is the archangel assigned to God's people, Israel. He is called “your prince”. Since most of the Old Testament revolves around the nation of Israel, it becomes understandable why only Michael is named, due to his role as
prince of God's people.In fact, there are numerous Scriptures that prove that THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY THAT JESUS AND MICHAEL ARE THE SAME PERSON.
Please research the following passages:
Jude 9- In this passage, we find that Michael the archangel will not bring an accusation against Satan, and would not rebuke Satan under his own authority, but said “the Lord rebuke thee”.
Truly now, when did Jesus Christ EVER refrain from accusing Satan, or rebuking him under His own power? Never! Jesus had all authority, and Satan and his demons fled from Jesus' word. Jesus never had to say “the Lord rebuke thee”, because HE WAS THE LORD! Michael, however, could not say this.
But I believe the best evidence, by far, that Jesus is not Michael, is found by reading Hebrews chapter one. The very theme of this Scripture is to show the SUPERIORITY of Jesus Christ, over the angels. Look at the following verses in Hebrews chapter 1….
v. 4- Jesus is “so much better than the angels”
v. 5- Jesus is contrasted with the angels of heaven, in that He is the only begotten of the Father.
v. 6- God the Father gives the command for ALL of the angels of heaven to WORSHIP Christ.
This verse MUST NOT be overlooked when speaking to JWs. God the Father has NEVER commanded the worship of an angel. And the fact that God commands ALL angels to worship Christ, would have to include Michael himself, because Michael is an angel. Therefore, Michael is NOT Jesus Christ, but is one of the angels that worships Jesus Christ.
v. 8- God the Father refers to Jesus (The Son) as “God”.
When did the Father ever call an angel “God”?
v. 10-12- God the Father speaks of Jesus (the Son) as the Creator of all things. (See also John 1:3).
v. 13-14- Again, Jesus is contrasted with the angels, in regards to his authority.
In chapter 2 of Hebrews, in verse 5 we find a very interesting statement….
Heb. 2:5- “For unto the angels hath He not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.”
According to this passage, angels will not be the rulers of the world to come. But we know that Jesus Christ WILL be, meaning that He cannot be an angel.
In Heb. 2:9, we are told that Christ was made “a little lower than the angels”, for the purpose of becoming human and dying for our sins. After His resurrection, He was again exalted to His previous position as being “SO MUCH BETTER than the angels” (Heb. 1:4). So, Christ has occupied the position of being BETTER than the angels, and He has also occupied the position of being a “little lower” than the angels. But not one Scripture ANYWHERE states that He has occupied the position of an angel.
Hebrews 2:16 says that Christ “took not on Him the nature of angels;”
Though this Scripture is a reference to His becoming human, NOWHERE is there a passage saying that Christ has the nature of angels.
In discussing this topic with a JW, you will want to remember the following:
1. There is NO SCRIPTURE that these people can give you in support of their view. NONE! Keep pressing the JW on this issue. The article the JWs will give you in support of their position uses alot of words like “evidently, logically, probable, etc.” In other words, THERE IS NO CONCRETE PROOF!!
2. You will also want to point out to the JW that, since this subject deals with the Person of Jesus Christ Himself, it is a VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE! It is rather odd that an issue of this importance would have so few Scriptures to support it.
If Jesus were truly Michael, it seems strange that the Word of God would contain no clear statement to this effect. It would certainly seem that God would want this made clear, if it were so.
3. Point out to the JW that he rejects the idea of Jesus being God, although there are many Scriptures stating this. Yet, he has NO SCRIPTURE stating HIS belief about Jesus, namely, that Jesus is Michael.
So, that means that the JW rejects what the Bible DOES say about Jesus, and believes something that the Bible DOES NOT say ANYWHERE about Jesus.
This is a STRONG indicator that the JWs have the wrong “Jesus”, because their “Jesus” cannot be found in the Bible.
4. You will also want to point out to the JW a very embarrassing fact….His religion taught years ago that Michael was the POPE OF ROME! If he doubts this, tell him to research the 1917 Watchtower publication “THE FINISHED MYSTERY”.
It is hard to trust this religion to tell us accurately who Jesus is, when they cannot even distinguish Him from the Pope. It is far better to just go by what the Bible says about Him.
Ask the JW to read Hebrews chapter one for himself, and then tell you that he still believes that Jesus Christ is an angel. You cannot honestly read this passage, and still arrive at that conclusion. Impossible.”
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2009,08:04) Secondly, the JWs only seem to read the part of 1 Thess. 4:16 that suits their purpose. If we read the whole verse, and apply their logic, then we have proof that Jesus is also God, for the very next statement says that Jesus comes “WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD”. Now, if we use JW reasoning, and say that Jesus' coming WITH the voice of the archangel means that He IS the archangel, then we must also conclude that Jesus' coming WITH the trump of God means that He is God. Of course, JWs would strongly disagree, but if their logic is to be used, then they must be consistent and interpret the whole verse the same way.
Thanks WJ. I like this point.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2009,08:04) Quote (Texas @ April 19 2009,00:24) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 18 2009,20:13) “preponderance of scriptural evidence”. Sorry Texas but that is laughable. Seriously. The “evidence” you speak of is so tenuous as to be summarily dismissed by almost all knowledgeable Bible students outside of the Watchtower, and for them it's a presupposition. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16 it's quite apparent that the archangel's voice is in fact heralding the descent of Yeshua, they are two different identities. Nothing in the text indicates they are the same. Nothing.
Is1:18!Nowhere in the Bible does it tell you by using your name, that you personally will receive everlasting life, now does it? It doesn't do that for anyone else on this Board either. Yet all of you believe that opportunity is open to all of you. Show me, in the Bible where you are named by name, or anyone else on this Board is named by name, because it directly states that. It doesn't, now does it? Yet you believe that opportunity is open to all of you, now don't you? You establish that belief by what the preponderance of scriptural evidence says about it, is that not correct? So, then, why do you need the Bible to state directly that Jesus is Michael the archangel?
If you accept the one, that isn't directly stated, and you do that! Then, tell me why you do not accept the scriptural evidence that points to Jesus as being Michael the Archangel? Even though that, too, is not directly stated! Tell us all why you do that, because I feel certain that there are others on this Board would appreciate your answer to that! So, explain to us what your reason for doing that is!
By the way, you'd best read that scripture again that tells you that Jesus 'descends with the voice of an Archangel' because, I feel certain that there is something that you have missed! Texas!
Hi TexasJesus is the Image of God. There is no scripture anywhere that says that Angels were created in the “image of God”.
Here is something for the readers on this subject.
“Answer
Hello Val. I want to offer my sincere apologies for taking 5 days to answer your question. Up until yesterday, I had not been on the computer for a few days. I hope this answer is not too late in coming, especially since you said the JWs are coming back in the next week or so. I hope it will be of some help.I will say that I have seen and read their so-called “evidence” for Jesus being Michael. Needless to say, there is NO SCRIPTURE that they can point to. Instead, they use alot of presumption and tortured reasoning to arrive at their conclusions. They will use primarily the Scripture in 1 Thess. 4:16, where it says….
“For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:”
From this verse, they say that Christ will shout with the archangel's voice, so therefore, He must be the archangel. There are a number of things to point out here….
First, it does not say that Jesus is the One Who is doing the shouting. It says He will descend WITH a shout. The word “with” means “accompanied by”. For example….”I went to the store WITH my wife.” Does that mean that I am the same person as my wife? No. It means that she accompanied me to the store. In fact, there are some verses that clearly say that, when Jesus comes, all of the angels will be coming WITH Him.
Check out the following verses: Matthew 25:31, Mark 8:38. It makes sense that the arrival and coming of a King would be announced by a loyal subject, which in this case, will be Michael the Archangel. There will be a shout from Michael, and then the blowing of the trumpet to announce the King's arrival in the rapture.
Suffice it to say, there is nothing in 1 Thess. 4:16 that states that Michael and Jesus are the same Person.
Secondly, the JWs only seem to read the part of 1 Thess. 4:16 that suits their purpose. If we read the whole verse, and apply their logic, then we have proof that Jesus is also God, for the very next statement says that Jesus comes “WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD”. Now, if we use JW reasoning, and say that Jesus' coming WITH the voice of the archangel means that He IS the archangel, then we must also conclude that Jesus' coming WITH the trump of God means that He is God. Of course, JWs would strongly disagree, but if their logic is to be used, then they must be consistent and interpret the whole verse the same way.
Of course, it is plain that both the voice of the archangel and the blowing of the trumpet are simply announcements of Christ's coming, and neither are done by Christ Himself.
Also, the JWs make some strange connections from the book of Revelation, primarily chapter 12, where Michael is said to have angels under His command.
“And there was war in heaven: Michael and HIS ANGELS fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels:”
Then, the JWs find other verses that say that Jesus has angels under His command, and arrive at the conclusion that, because they both are said to have angels under their command, then they must be the same Person. I am sure that you can see the ridiculous nature of that logic. A military commander may have soldiers under his command, and he can rightly call them “his soldiers”. However, the President of the United States is the “Commander in Chief” of the military, and therefore, he can also refer to them as “his soldiers”. This does NOT mean that the military commander and the President are the same individual.
I believe any sane person can see the shallow nature of the Watchtower reasoning. The fact is: THEY DO NOT HAVE ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT THEY CAN POINT TO, SAYING CLEARLY THAT JESUS CHRIST IS MICHAEL. Do not let the JWs get away from this fact, but press them on it.
You said….”l use by Bible regularly and can find nothing to substantiate thier beliefs, but am well aware that they are able to take scripture out of context.”
The reason you can find nothing in the Bible to substantiate their beliefs, is because it isn't there! And yes, they do take Scripture out of context. But on this particular subject, even they have a difficult time locating Scriptures to take out of context. The reasonings I listed above, are about the best arguments that they have.
There is one other argument that they may use, so I will briefly discuss it. They argue that “archangel” is singular, and means that there is only one archangel, making him unique. Then, they assume this must be Jesus Christ.
Actually, the Bible does not teach that there is only one archangel. True, there is only one archangel in Scripture THAT IS NAMED, but that does not mean that others do not exist. In Daniel chapter 10, we find some evidence that others may indeed exist. In verse 13, we are told that Michael is “ONE OF the chief princes”. Since “archangel” means “chief angel, or prince”, then we see that Michael is only “ONE OF” the chief princes. It does not say he is the ONLY one.
So why would others not be named? Well, if we look at verse 21 of Daniel chapter 10, we see that Michael is named
because he is the archangel assigned to God's people, Israel. He is called “your prince”. Since most of the Old Testament revolves around the nation of Israel, it becomes understandable why only Michael is named, due to his role as prince of God's people.In fact, there are numerous Scriptures that prove that THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY THAT JESUS AND MICHAEL ARE THE SAME PERSON.
Please research the following passages:
Jude 9- In this passage, we find that Michael the archangel will not bring an accusation against Satan, and would not rebuke Satan under his own authority, but said “the Lord rebuke thee”.
Truly now, when did Jesus Christ EVER refrain from accusing Satan, or rebuking him under His own power? Never! Jesus had all authority, and Satan and his demons fled from Jesus' word. Jesus never had to say “the Lord rebuke thee”, because HE WAS THE LORD! Michael, however, could not say this.
But I believe the best evidence, by far, that Jesus is not Michael, is found by reading Hebrews chapter one. The very theme of this Scripture is to show the SUPERIORITY of Jesus Christ, over the angels. Look at the following verses in Hebrews chapter 1….
v. 4- Jesus is “so much better than the angels”
v. 5- Jesus is contrasted with the angels of heaven, in that He is the only begotten of the Father.
v. 6- God the Father gives the command for ALL of the angels of heaven to WORSHIP Christ.
This verse MUST NOT be overlooked when speaking to JWs. God the Father has NEVER commanded the worship of an angel. And the fact that God commands ALL angels to worship Christ, would have to include Michael himself, because Michael is an angel. Therefore, Michael is NOT Jesus Christ, but is one of the angels that worships Jesus Christ.
v. 8- God the Father refers to Jesus (The Son) as “God”.
When did the Father ever call an angel “God”?
v. 10-12- God the Father speaks of Jesus (the Son) as the Creator of all things. (See also John 1:3).
v. 13-14- Again, Jesus is contrasted with the angels, in regards to his authority.
In chapter 2 of Hebrews, in verse 5 we find a very interesting statement….
Heb. 2:5- “For unto the angels hath He not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.”
According to this passage, angels will not be the rulers of the world to come. But we know that Jesus Christ WILL be, meaning that He cannot be an angel.
In Heb. 2:9, we are told that Christ was made “a little lower than the angels”, for the purpose of becoming human and dying for our sins. After His resurrection, He was again exalted to His previous position as being “SO MUCH BETTER than the angels” (Heb. 1:4). So, Christ has occupied the position of being BETTER than the angels, and He has also occupied the position of being a “little lower” than the angels. But not one Scripture ANYWHERE states that He has occupied the position of an angel.
Hebrews 2:16 says that Christ “took not on Him the nature of angels;”
Though this Scripture is a reference to His becoming human, NOWHERE is there a passage saying that Christ has the nature of angels.
In discussing this topic with a JW, you will want to remember the following:
1. There is NO SCRIPTURE that these people can give you in support of their view. NONE! Keep pressing the JW on this issue. The article the JWs will give you in support of their position uses alot of words like “evidently, logically, probable, etc.” In other words, THERE IS NO CONCRETE PROOF!!
2. You will also want to point out to the JW that, since this subject deals with the Person of Jesus Christ Himself, it is a VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE! It is rather odd that an issue of this importance would have so few Scriptures to support it.
If Jesus were truly Michael, it seems strange that the Word of God would contain no clear statement to this effect. It would certainly seem that God would want this made clear, if it were so.
3. Point out to the JW that he rejects the idea of Jesus being God, although there are many Scriptures stating this. Yet, he has NO SCRIPTURE stating HIS belief about Jesus, namely, that Jesus is Michael.
So, that means that the JW rejects what the Bible DOES say about Jesus, and believes something that the Bible DOES NOT say ANYWHERE about Jesus.
This is a STRONG indicator that the JWs have the wrong “Jesus”, because their “Jesus” cannot be found in the Bible.
4. You will also want to point out to the JW a very embarrassing fact….His religion taught years ago that Michael was the POPE OF ROME! If he doubts this, tell him to research the 1917 Watchtower publication “THE FINISHED MYSTERY”.
It is hard to trust this religion to tell us accurately who Jesus is, when they cannot even distinguish Him from the Pope. It is far better to just go by what the Bible says about Him.
Ask the JW to read Hebrews chapter one for himself, and then tell you that he still believes that Jesus Christ is an angel. You cannot honestly read this passage, and still arrive at that conclusion. Impossible.”
WJ
Worshipping Jesus!
Consider what is written at Matthew 12:36,37 because it applies to your long list of reasonings here!“I tell you that every unprofitable saying THAT MEN SPEAK, they will render an account CONCERNING IT on Judgment Day; for BY YOUR WORDS you will be declared righteous, and BY YOUR WORDS YOU WILL BE CONDEMNED.”
Something to think about, isn't it? Texaas!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 15 2009,12:35) Hi david,
The bible never says Jesus is an angel, and archangel or one of the princes called Michael.
So that stuff has all come from the fertile imaginations of men.
They should not alter scripture with nonsense.
Hi Nick!
Maybe the Bible never states directly that Jesus was an angel, but the scriptural evidence points to the fact, that he was! Notice the words of Jesus on this subject:“What therefore, if you should behold the Son of Man ascending to WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?” {John 6:62}
Now, where he was before, was in heaven with his Father, and doesn't the Bible tells us, “That God loved the World so much that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him might not perish but have everlasting life.” For God SENT FORTH HIS SON INTO THE WORLD, not for him to judge the World, but for the World to be saved through him.” {John 3:16,17} So, that means that when Jesus was in heaven with his father, he was an angel a Spirit being! He couldn't have been anything else, because 'flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom.” {1 Corinthians 15:50}
You would appear to be taking the same stand, as some of those first Century Jews. Notice the conversation going on between them and Jesus: “You are not greater than our Father Abraham, who died, are you? Jesus answered: if I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who you say is your God; and yet you have not known him. But I KNOW HIM. And if I said I do not know him I should be like you, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word. Abraham your Father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced. Therefore the Jews said to him: “You are not yet fifty years old, and still YOU HAVE SEEN ABRAHAM?” Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into existence, I HAVE BEEN” Now, for that statement made by Jesus the Jews tried to stone him! {John 8:53-59}
So Jesus made it very plain to those Jews that he was with his father in heaven even before Abraham came on the scene; so, then, he HAD TO BE A HEAVENLY SPIRIT ANGEL before his coming to this earth. As a heavenly spirit being, he had to have a name to identify him as that one particular angel. Now, as I said before, using scriptural evidence to prove what I said, That heavenly name was Michael the Archangel! You prove by using the Holy Writings, that, that wasn't his name!
Now, tell me, is this altering scripture with nonense? Texas!
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