Who is this Jesus?

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,08:46)

Hi 94, Those commands are taught by the Spirit of God. The striving of men never helps God.

Hi Nick:

By striving, I mean that I obey the commandments, but I make mistakes, don't you?

[Lightenup]

Hello 942767

Quote (942767@Feb. 24, 2008, 15:00)
“I do not believe in pre-existence.  My understanding is that God made man in his own image. The first man was made a living soul, like God in that he had a mind, a free will, and emotions.  The last Adam, Jesus, was made a life-giving spirit.  It is in this spirit that man's soul is alive to God.  God is a Spirit and God is love, and the last man is like God in the spirit of love.  Jesus is the express image of God's person, and we become like Jesus as we learn to apply the commandments that have come from God through him to our daily lives.”

Thank you for your response.  That was all good information.  Please allow me to address the subject of the pre-existence of Christ.

John the Baptist says of Christ:
John 1:15
15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ' He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'” NASU  Now we know that John the Baptist was conceived in Elizabeth before Jesus was conceived in Mary.  Therefore John was saying that Jesus existed even before Jesus’ conception in Mary.

Jesus says of Himself
John 8:56-59
56 ” Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”  57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
NASU

Abraham saw and spoke to Jesus during this occasion:
Gen 18:1-5
Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3 and said, ” My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by. 4 “Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree; 5 and I will bring a piece of bread, that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant.” And they said, “So do, as you have said.”  You might want to read the whole story.  The three men were two angels and the pre-incarnate Jesus.
NASU

Here Jesus is said to be before all things and used by the Most High God to create all things.
Col 1:15-18

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.   Therefore, Jesus existed before all things were created in the heavens and on earth.
NASU

Now, I have shown you that it was through Jesus that man was made.  Man was made in the image of the Father and the Son, as we see in this verse: Gen 1:26 not just the Father.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
NASU

Blessings, K

[942767]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 25 2008,09:41)

Hello 942767 Quote (942767@Feb. 24, 2008, 15:00) “I do not believe in pre-existence.  My understanding is that God made man in his own image. The first man was made a living soul, like God in that he had a mind, a free will, and emotions.  The last Adam, Jesus, was made a life-giving spirit.  It is in this spirit that man's soul is alive to God.  God is a Spirit and God is love, and the last man is like God in the spirit of love.  Jesus is the express image of God's person, and we become like Jesus as we learn to apply the commandments that have come from God through him to our daily lives.” Thank you for your response.  That was all good information.  Please allow me to address the subject of the pre-existence of Christ. John the Baptist says of Christ: John 1:15 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ' He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'” NASU  Now we know that John the Baptist was conceived in Elizabeth before Jesus was conceived in Mary.  Therefore John was saying that Jesus existed even before Jesus’ conception in Mary. Jesus says of Himself John 8:56-59 56 ” Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”  57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” NASU Abraham saw and spoke to Jesus during this occasion: Gen 18:1-5 Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3 and said, ” My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by. 4 “Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree; 5 and I will bring a piece of bread, that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant.” And they said, “So do, as you have said.”  You might want to read the whole story.  The three men were two angels and the pre-incarnate Jesus. NASU Here Jesus is said to be before all things and used by the Most High God to create all things. Col 1:15-18 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.   Therefore, Jesus existed before all things were created in the heavens and on earth. NASU Now, I have shown you that it was through Jesus that man was made.  Man was made in the image of the Father and the Son, as we see in this verse: Gen 1:26 not just the Father. 26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; NASU Blessings, K

Hi Lightenup:

There is a Thread entitled pre-existense. I have posted my understanding of this there, and I will be happy to address any questions that you may have relative to my understanding of this topic there.

God Bless

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
You say
“The three men were two angels and the pre-incarnate Jesus.”

I do not think you can prove this statement.

I think it more likely the angel of the Lord God, who represents God often, came with two companion angels.

[Lightenup]

Hey Nick,
I think that it is reasonable to say that it was the pre-incarnate Jesus.

You say:
Hi LU,
You say
“The three men were two angels and the pre-incarnate Jesus.”

I do not think you can prove this statement.

I think it more likely the angel of the Lord God, who represents God often,  came with two companion angels.

My response:
One of the three men refer to themselves as Yahweh several times while talking to Abraham.  Now we know that no one has seen the Most High God at any time, so it wasn't the Father.  And we also know that Abraham was aware of Jesus as we see in John 8:56
56 ” Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”   So, I think that it was the pre-incarnate Jesus.  
Can you prove that it wasn't?

Have a great day, K

[Lightenup]

Hey Nick,
I think that it is reasonable to say that it was the pre-incarnate Jesus.

You say:

I do not think you can prove this statement.

I think it more likely the angel of the Lord God, who represents God often,  came with two companion angels.

My response:
One of the three men refer to themselves as Yahweh several times while talking to Abraham.  Now we know that no one has seen the Most High God at any time, so it wasn't the Father.  And we also know that Abraham was aware of Jesus as we see in John 8:56
56 ” Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”   So, I think that it was the pre-incarnate Jesus.  
Can you prove that it wasn't?

Have a great day, K

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
We cannot write truth from derived logic but only learn from what is written

God is the God of the Living.

Mt 22
29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Abraham and Isaac and David are yet alive to God and indeed rejoiced to see the day when Christ came to earth.

But Christ had no prior visits to earth to check out that landscape or he would have an advantage over us and we could not be expected to be able to follow him.

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,

Ex3
2And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

3And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

4And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

5And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

6Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Was God in the bush?
No the angel of the Lord God was.
Yet God spoke through this angelic mouthpiece.

[Proclaimer]

So the question is, was the messenger a pre-existent Yeshua?

I can see for and against on this one.

Revelation 1: 1 shows us divine order of authority that goes like this:

God > Jesus > Angel > John > 7 Churches

Clearly Jesus is not the angel here. But then again it doesn't say Angel of the Lord. And it appears that it was Jesus angel, although that is debatable as it is hard to see for sure who HIS is in “his angel”.

On the other hand the word angel means messenger and such a title is used at least once of John the Baptist and Jesus. Also the Angel of the LORD is called wonderful and Jesus is Wonderful.

Judges 13:18
And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

The above verse can also been seen in different ways. e.g., is it Wonderful councilor or Wonderful, Councilor, Secret Councilor?

The word wonderful/secret is used as an adjective in the first verse and a noun in the second.

In any case, the word angel can be applied to men in the case of Jesus and John. So the messenger of the LORD could be a pre-existent Yeshua for surely he is God's main messenger.

Anyway if we wish to debate these points further I know there is a at lest one discussion focused on this, even though this discussion is also appropriate.

[NickHassan]

Hi T8,
Jesus the main messenger?
The angel of the Lord is constantly seen at work in the OT.

Surely Christ does bring the message of salvation in his name.
But is not the rest not speculation?

[Lightenup]

Hi Nick,

You wrote:
Abraham and Isaac and David are yet alive to God and indeed rejoiced to see the day when Christ came to earth.

I write: I would have liked to listen in on the conversation when Jesus was on the road to Emmaus and told the two companions about what the old testament scriptures said concerning Himself.
Luke 24:27
27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
NASU
That would have cleared this up regarding whether Jesus was the one talking to Abraham in Hebron that day.

You also wrote:
But Christ had no prior visits to earth to check out that landscape or he would have an advantage over us and we could not be expected to be able to follow him.

I write:
You know that everything, even the landscape, was made through Jesus, right? The Father made the landscape through Him (Jesus). So I not only believe that He (Jesus) visited the landscape, He infact was involved in forming the landscape. He knew all about creation and people of the old testament because He was the begotten God with His Father, the most high God, over the Israelites. However, I understand that when Jesus was to come in the flesh he emptied himself (in whatever way that was) so that he could come in the likeness of men. So, I would say, that He wanted to be without advantage when coming in the flesh.
Phil 2:5-9
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
NASU

Did you get my pm regarding the light and firstborn a couple of days ago? I was hoping for a response from you on that.
Blessings, K

[NickHassan]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 29 2008,15:10)

Hi Nick, You wrote: Abraham and Isaac and David are yet alive to God and indeed rejoiced to see the day when Christ came to earth. I write:  I would have liked to listen in on the conversation when Jesus was on the road to Emmaus and told the two companions about what the old testament scriptures said concerning Himself. Luke 24:27 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures. NASU That would have cleared this up regarding whether Jesus was the one talking to Abraham in Hebron that day.   You also wrote: But Christ had no prior visits to earth to check out that landscape or he would have an advantage over us and we could not be expected to be able to follow him. I write: You know that everything, even the landscape, was made through Jesus, right?  The Father made the landscape through Him (Jesus).  So I not only believe that He (Jesus) visited the landscape, He infact was involved in forming the landscape.  He knew all about creation and people of the old testament because He was the begotten God with His Father, the most high God, over the Israelites.  However, I understand that when Jesus was to come in the flesh he emptied himself (in whatever way that was) so that he could come in the likeness of men.  So, I would say, that He wanted to be without advantage when coming in the flesh. Phil 2:5-9 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and  being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. NASU Did you get my pm regarding the light and firstborn a couple of days ago? I was hoping for a response from you on that. Blessings, K

Hi LU,
Gen 18
22Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD.

So the three men[? angels] were not the Lord God, nor our appointed Lord, Jesus.

[Lightenup]

Hi Nick,

You wrote:Gen 18
22Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD.  

So the three men[? angels] were not the Lord God, nor our appointed Lord, Jesus.

I write:
I do not think that you can be dogmatic about that.  In the passage of Gen 18-19 the three men are referred to as men, two of them are also referred to as angels as in Gen 19:1, and one of them is also referred to as “the LORD” several times, and as “the Lord” several times.  
My conclusion: the LORD (probably the pre-incarnate Christ) appeared to Abraham with two angels.  It never says that the angel of the LORD appeared to him in the entire passage.  

Note that in Gen 19:27 it says:  Now Abraham arose early in the morning and went to the place where he had stood before the LORD.
Also note that it doesn't say that he stood before the angel of the LORD or merely a man.  This verse refers to Gen 18:22 where it says: Then the men (the two angels) turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD.

If you conclude that one of them was not the LORD then you have to show that somewhere in the Bible where it refers to this incident particularly that it is not the LORD otherwise you are drawing assumptions through your particular bias and that is not something to stand on, dogmatically speaking of course.
Have a great day in the Lord, K

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
You cannot also teach that it was Jesus because it is pure speculation with no scriptural support.
In my view it opposes the functional idea that we can follow an anointed one who was like we can be.

[Lightenup]

Hey Nick,
Why do you say:
In my view it opposes the functional idea that we can follow an anointed one who was like we can be.

[NickHassan]

Hi Gene,
No head start, no preview,
He did later recall his time with God in heaven and want to go back.
But he never mentioned any previous time on earth and it is unwise to put into the scriptures what is not there.

[Lightenup]

Hi Nick,
I believe that the Son of God emptied himself of whatever He was and did before He came in the flesh so that He was not at an advantage.
Consider this verse: Phil 2:5-8
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
NASU

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
I agree.

[gollamudi]

Dear Mandy,
Nice to read your posts once again, my sis. The glory that is mentioned in Jn 17:5 is preordained glory not existing glory. Therefore Jesus was asking the Father to glorify His son with the glory that was promised for him before the foundations of the world. I am wondering howmany times, how many topics this verse has been debated.
May God bless you all.
Adam

[Not3in1]

Good morning, Adam.

I think the verse has been debated since the day after it was written!  

I also believe that the glory Jesus spoke of was that of a promised glory – and that of the only begotten Son!]

Take care and what is happening in your part of the word, brother?
Love,
Mandy

[Author]

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