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Quote (Not3in1 @ April 15 2007,09:40) No. Not pre-existing in a physical sense. Tim, are you saying you believe that YOU pre-existed your birth? No one did, not even Christ. We were foreknown to God, just as Jesus was.
Hi not3,
Do spiritual beings exist in a PHYSICAL sense?
Surely it is an oxymoron?Quote (TimothyVI @ April 15 2007,22:45) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2007,10:41) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 15 2007,09:30) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 15 2007,06:07) And what about the “Glory that he shared with the Father before the world was”? Was he just a seed that shared Gods glory?
Scripture speaks as if others pre-existed, as well as Christ. Consider the following:
Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,Of Jeremiah, the LORD said:
Jer 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.Are each of these scriptures proof that we pre-existed with God?
Tim
TimShow me how these verses say “We shared” anything with God before the foundation of the world.
You guys will do anything to alter the scriptures.
Sad!
Hi WorshippingJesus,You said “You guys will do anything to alter the scriptures.”
All I did was copy and paste the actual scriptures.
I didn't alter anything.God knew and sanctified Jeremiah before he was even formed in the belly, just as He glorified Jesus before He was born.
Neither verse proves pre-existence. Just fore-knowledge.
That is not too difficult to understand.A person shouldn't have to pick one verse to prove their doctrine and then deny the others.
Tim
TimSorry but foreknowedge is just that. The knowledge of something or some one who will be.
Of course God knew us before we were born for he knows all things. But we didnt know him for we didnt exist, whereas Jesus did.
Jesus is not speaking of foreknowledge. Jesus is speaking of something that has already been before the foundation of the world.
The key word is “had”.
Quote Jn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which **I had** with thee before the world was.Greek Had, 'echo'…
1) to have, i.e. to hold
a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as
2) to have i.e. own, possess
a) external things such as pertain to property or riches or furniture or utensils or goods or food etc.
b) used of those joined to any one by the bonds of natural blood or marriage or friendship or duty or law etc, of attendance or companionship
3) to hold one's self or find one's self so and so, to be in such or such a condition
4) to hold one's self to a thing, to lay hold of a thing, to adhere or cling to
a) to be closely joined to a person or a thing
Do you remember *having anything* before you were born?
Is there a scripture that says you existed before you were born?
Do you remember *having anything* before you were born?
Is there a scripture that says you existed before you were born?
Nick wrote:
Do spiritual beings exist in a PHYSICAL sense?
Surely it is an oxymoron?
*************************Ha – Nick – you're right, it does sound like an oxymoron! But sometimes I get the idea that you do believe that Jesus existed as a “person” before his actual birth? Are you saying that you believe that Jesus existed as a “spiritual person” before his birth?
Nick,
I can't wrap my mind around a “spiritual person” – what does that look like to you?
Is Jesus really Jesus in this spiritual person, or is this person the logos?
When this spiritual person is sent to earth, and born of Mary, does this spiritual person gain anything from he's earthly birth besides flesh?This is indeed a curious topic.
Hi not3,
What does God look like?
The Monogenes Son was in His image.
The sons of God do not share flesh but in other ways they are like to us.
He emptied himself of any personal glory and any advantage he may have had over us.
Jesus had nothing to gain by being made even less than the angels, and a man of no repute, except the promised glory.
He was selfless and owed us nothing but died for you.When Jesus came to earth did he remember his former life as a spiritual person with God? If so, how did that affect his ministry here on earth? And if not, how come?
Hi not3,
He did say he came from heaven and was going back.
He did say he was before Abraham.
He did speak of his former glory.
He did know his Father.How would knowledge of heavenly things affect him?
All of us in him can reach into the heart of God by the same Spirit[1Cor2]
So he had no advantage over natural man that is not also available to his brothers.Nick wrote:
So he had no advantage over natural man that is not also available to his brothers
******************************Are you kidding me?
If he was fully aware of his former home, fully aware of happenings before Abraham, fully aware of former glory……how could he possibly not have any advantage over me?
I don't have a clue what heaven is like! I couldn't tell you a snip of information prior to Abraham, and for sure I never experienced any glory. He didn't have any advantage? I'm sorry, I strongly disagree with you here.
If Jesus carried all of this with him, how could he be worried AT ALL about the cross? Was he just scared of the pain he was going to feel?
When it comes down to it, there are other ways to interpret the scripture, “Before Abraham was, I am.” There are other ways to interpret when Jesus is speaking of his glory with the Father. There are other ways to interpret coming down from heaven and so on. These interpretations also make sense and seem to line up with scripture. So, you are guessing. You are being theoretical when you say that these verses mean what you believe they mean. It's not a proven fact. In other words, this does not prove that Jesus was a spiritual being before he was born.
Essentially, you choose to believe Jesus was a spiritual being before he was born due to these scriptures. I choose to believe he was the literal Son of God, and his existence began at his birth. Both are likely. How do we know which is TRUTH and not a THEORY? Just food for thought……
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2007,20:37) He did say he came from heaven and was going back.
He did say he was before Abraham.
He did speak of his former glory.
He did know his Father.
GreetingsJesus never ever said anywhere that he was going back to heaven. Nowhere! I have previously pointing this out.
As for 'glory' he prayed to his Father to bestow upon him glory which he had with the Father before the world was.
Hence, glory in prospect … foreordained glory
This glory was preordained for the Messiah before the world was. Jesus is aware of this in his lifetime, and therefore, in John 17, he asks the Father for the glory which was preordained hence he had it with the Father in prospect before the world was!He knew his Father in his earthly lifetime because the Father revealed Himself to him, even from his youth. [Luke 2.40]
Quote (Adam Pastor @ April 18 2007,11:05) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2007,20:37) He did say he came from heaven and was going back.
He did say he was before Abraham.
He did speak of his former glory.
He did know his Father.
GreetingsJesus never ever said anywhere that he was going back to heaven. Nowhere! I have previously pointing this out.
As for 'glory' he prayed to his Father to bestow upon him glory which he had with the Father before the world was.
Hence, glory in prospect … foreordained glory
This glory was preordained for the Messiah before the world was. Jesus is aware of this in his lifetime, and therefore, in John 17, he asks the Father for the glory which was preordained hence he had it with the Father in prospect before the world was!He knew his Father in his earthly lifetime because the Father revealed Himself to him, even from his youth. [Luke 2.40]
APNot so.
Jn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.If the word had…
Greek Had, 'echo'…
1) to have, i.e. to hold
a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as
2) to have i.e. own, possess
a) external things such as pertain to property or riches or furniture or utensils or goods or food etc.
b) used of those joined to any one by the bonds of natural blood or marriage or friendship or duty or law etc, of attendance or companionship
3) to hold one's self or find one's self so and so, to be in such or such a condition
4) to hold one's self to a thing, to lay hold of a thing, to adhere or cling to
a) to be closely joined to a person or a thing
If this word is not enough, how about the word with.
John 17:5 Gr Interlinear
kai nun docason me su, pater, para seautw th doch h eixon pro tou ton kosmon einai para soi.
And now glorify me you , Father, with yourself, with the glory that *i had before the of the world*.NASB
Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.GWT
Now, Father, give me glory in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world existed.KJV
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.ASV
And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.BBE
And now, Father, let me have glory with you, even that glory which I had with you before the world was.DBY
and now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was.WEY
And now, Father, do Thou glorify me in Thine own presence, with the glory that I had in Thy presence before the world existed.WBS
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thy ownself, with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.WEB
Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.YLT
'And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee;AP it looks like your interpretation is going against over 500 Greek and Hebrew scholars which were in agreement with the interpretation of John 17:5 in the major credible translations.
Jesus surely had existed before the foundation of the world since by him all things were created and without him was not any thing created that was created.
John also bore witness of his pre-existance in the following verses…
1 Jn 1:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)Here I go again………but HOW was he “with” the Father?
Anyway, I believe that Jesus was with the Father alright – but not as a second person of himself – and not as a spiritual person. Jesus was with God as his son to be brought forth, as the plan of the Father, as the word of the Father that would be manifested in the birth of Jesus.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 18 2007,17:50) Here I go again………but HOW was he “with” the Father? Anyway, I believe that Jesus was with the Father alright – but not as a second person of himself – and not as a spiritual person. Jesus was with God as his son to be brought forth, as the plan of the Father, as the word of the Father that would be manifested in the birth of Jesus.
not3in1No offense, but is there anything in the scriptures that you believe by faith and not have to understand with your logic?
The scriptures plainly teach he was the Eternal life, the Word that shared Gods glory before the foundation of the world, a thought or a plan dosnt have a will or life.
“That which I had with you” Jn 17:5
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 18 2007,17:50) Here I go again………but HOW was he “with” the Father? Anyway, I believe that Jesus was with the Father alright – but not as a second person of himself – and not as a spiritual person. Jesus was with God as his son to be brought forth, as the plan of the Father, as the word of the Father that would be manifested in the birth of Jesus.
Hi Not3,
Does God beget his thoughts and plans?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 18 2007,17:59) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 18 2007,17:50) Here I go again………but HOW was he “with” the Father? Anyway, I believe that Jesus was with the Father alright – but not as a second person of himself – and not as a spiritual person. Jesus was with God as his son to be brought forth, as the plan of the Father, as the word of the Father that would be manifested in the birth of Jesus.
not3in1No offense, but is there anything in the scriptures that you believe by faith and not have to understand with your logic?
The scriptures plainly teach he was the Eternal life, the Word that shared Gods glory before the foundation of the world, a thought or a plan dosnt have a will or life.
“That which I had with you” Jn 17:5
Hi W,
Actually he had glory of his own as individuals do.Jn 1
“14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”Here's the thing guys – I believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. Literally. Why is that a crime of not believing by faith? It is taught clearly in scripture, too. In fact, it is more likely and taught clearer than both of your views! Jesus had geneology! He had a Mother!
And yes, you can give “birth” to plans………….you were born, right, Nick? You started out as a plan, I'm sure.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 18 2007,18:04) Here's the thing guys – I believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. Literally. Why is that a crime of not believing by faith? It is taught clearly in scripture, too. In fact, it is more likely and taught clearer than both of your views! Jesus had geneology! He had a Mother! And yes, you can give “birth” to plans………….you were born, right, Nick? You started out as a plan, I'm sure.
not3in1Son of God and Son of man.
He was not all man. He is the Monogenes “Unique” Son of God.
He is the second Adam, the Lord from heaven.
Right, WJ. As I do not believe in the incarnation, and you do, we may have more than a bit of misunderstanding between us.
But I believe that Jesus was with God as a son is with his father before they are born. I believe scripture also teaches this. Scripture is vague if it is referring to an incarnation OR even more vague regarding Nick's beliefs to a pre-existent “spiritual person.”Phillipians is really the only passage that helps the incarnation along. I'm not sure which passages Nick uses for his beliefs. But the literal son belief can be found everywhere in the gospels.
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