Who is this Jesus?

[david]

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Yes i understand what you are saying, but i disagree. All other Gods are false. Jeremiah 10:10 (Whole Chapter) But the Lord is the true God and the God of truth (the God Who is Truth). He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth quakes, and the nations are not able to bear His indignation. 2 Chronicles 15:3 (Whole Chapter) Now for a long time Israel was without the true God, without a teaching priest, and without law. If God is the True God then all others are false. You can Only be Fully true, as in The True God, if there is no falseness in you(gotta be perfect) Since only God is perfect, then all other gods are false. You can only have one True God. Thats what it means by True. No where in scripture does it say there are multiple true Gods. Only One True God(Three personas-One True God).

Yes, but what does the word “god” mean?
It means “mighty one,” basically. There are many mighty ones, one that are migthty to varying degrees. But there is only one in the Bible who is ever described as “Almighty,” and that is Jehovah. He is the only true God. (John 17:3)

[Is 1:18]

t8,Feb. wrote:

[/quote]

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OK let's backtrack. Why are you calling me a polytheist? Last time it was because I said there are many gods. Is that still the case?

If you assign divinity to them, then yes you are a polytheist. If we are sticking to dictionary definitions, that is.

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From Dictionary.com pol·y·the·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pl-th-zm, pl-thz-m) n. The worship of or belief in more than one god.

T8, read these passages carefully:

DEUTERONOMY 32:21
They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols…

PSALM 96:5
For all the gods of the peoples are idols, But the LORD made the heavens.

1 CORINTHIANS 10
19What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons. (cf. Ps 106:37-38)

GALATIANS 4:8
However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.

Also see: Isa 37:19, 41:23-24, Jer 2:11, 5:7, 16:20

I think it's a matter of perspective; in mans eyes they are gods, but YHWH could not have been overt in declaring that they are “no gods”. Paul put it in the plainest of language when he wrote “which by nature are no gods”. So if we are to look for the truth in this matter are we to take mans or Gods perspective into account? I myself attribute a much higher weighting to God's, since He is the truth. If YHWH planly states that they are “by nature no gods”, I am conformed to that precept. If you continue to maintain that to these personages are divine, as Jesus is divine, then how do you explain how YHWH gave His divine nature/essence to demons?! Demons are unmistakably associated with idols and clearly identified as being the the power behind them (Deut 32:21, 1 Sam 12:21, Psa 106:37, 1 Cor 10:20, Gal 4:8). Psa 96:5 records that the gods are ALL idols.

I also want to re-iterate that all these “gods” and “lords” MUST be part of the created order. Since Jesus was the agent of creation of ALL THINGS (John 1:3, Col 1:16), the ONE who literally “laid the foundation of the Earth” and from whose hands the Heavens came about (Heb 1:10 cf. Ps 102:25), AND who continues to sustain the entire universe (Heb 1:3), these “lords and gods” owe both the inception and continuence of their very existence to YAHSHUA. Since this cannot be argued Biblically, how then can you continue to lump Jesus in with his creation and say “oh He is one of the lords and gods of 1 Cor 8:5”?? He is not in the same metaphysical/ontological category at all, He is in fact THEIR CREATOR.

Also, have you ever noticed that the Bible has nothing good to say about these “lords and gods”. I don't think there are any benevolent “gods” recorded in scripture (well….maybe hindu scripture). They are all identified as being nefarious and malevolent (its important to remember that Jesus is never explicitly called “a god” in scripture and he is THE Lord, not “a lord”). We are, in fact, unequivically warned not to serve any of them (Luke 4:8 cf. Deut 6:13), yet Paul, James, Peter and Jude were all bondservants (no less!) of Christ (and we know that no servant can serve 2 masters (Lk 16:13):

Romans 1:1
Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, apart for the gospel of God,

2 Corinthians 4:5
For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.

Galatians 1:10
For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

Philippians 1:1
Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:

Colossians 1:7
just as you learned it from Epaphras, our beloved fellow bond-servant, who is a faithful servant of Christ on our behalf,

Colossians 4:7
[Eph 6:21, 22] As to all my affairs, Tychicus, our beloved brother and faithful servant and fellow bond-servant in the Lord, will bring you information.

2 Timothy 2:24
The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,

Titus 1:1
Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,

James 1:1
James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Jude 1:1
Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

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BTW you argued with the t8 of old and accused him of being a polytheist. Are you accusing the new t8 too?

He he….i'm still adjusting to your new found sense of humour, hard to know whether some of your questions are serious or not.

[Sultan]

Is 1:18,
At first I thought this was just a discussion on the use of the word god, but you have definately taken it to another level. Your post was great, and point well made.

[Is 1:18]

Thanks for your kind words Sultan.

[Is 1:18]

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Well sarcasm or not, there are many gods and there are many lords, (that is not sarcastic), it's a fact. But believing that scripture and other similar ones, doesn't make one a polytheist.

If you believe in more than one gods then you are, by definition, a polytheist. Take it up with Dictionary.com if you disagree. I think you are perhaps the only person I have ever met who assigns divinity to these “lords and gods” and claims that Jesus is one of them. I can’t believe you don't see the polytheistic implications in adopting such a position.

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For me there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ, but for you there is One God the Father, one God the Son, and one God the Spirit. That's 3 in anyone's book.

Not true. One divine essence, three distinct personages. Your assumption that God is only one person automatically assumes that an infinite God can be held hostage to a finite limitation. I think its better to let the Bible interpret itself and accept that God might just be a little more complex than us.

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So I believe that there is one GOD and there are also many gods, including images of God. You believe that there are 3 who are called God and no gods.

I believe that there is ONE TRUE GOD and all others are “gods” are false gods. I have already appealed to much scripture to prove this.

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You say 3 + 0. I say 1 + many. Who is the POLYtheist? Remember that a 3 sided shape is a triangle, also known as a POLYgon. Careful where you point your finger.

As above.

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Jesus said “that he was one with God, and with us (Church). He also said that we can be one with each other and with him. That shows me that there is one God and we are one with him by his Spirit. We also know from scripture that we will participate in divine nature. i.e., 1 + many. 1 God who wants to be one with people and who is one with his son.

Does “partaking of the divine nature” mean we will become Gods? Will we become all-knowing, universe creating beings? Will we become Alpha and Omegas? I think you are reading WAY too much into 2 Peter 1:4.

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Everything in this post I have said to you can be proven by scripture. In fact all I am doing is quoting scripture. You cannot prove your creed(s) because they are conclusions drawn from other philosophies that try to use a scripture here and there to give it some credibility.

Everyone thinks that their doctrines can be PROVEN by scripture. Problem is many people hold contradictory doctrinal positions.  My personal belief is that when the whole of scripture is carefully and critically examined the trinitarian “model” harmonises best. I have little regard for creeds and philosophies and never cite or allude to any of them, as I have already pointed out to you numerous times. It is a sin to bear false witness against a neighbour.

T8, I know you like to pass yourself off as the iconoclastic truth guru and you also like to paint all trinitarians as philosophically-influenced, creed-spouting, rosary bead carrying idolaters, but not all trinitarians are like that, and the generalisation is unfair. Many, like myself, are theologically non-denominational (although I attend a denominational church for fellowship), and have searched the scriptures with the same honest intent to mine the truth as you have. The only tangible difference is that we have reached some different conclusions.

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Is 1:18, the time has come. There is nothing you can do to stem the tide. As someone once said: “you can decieve all the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you cannot decieve all the people all of the time.

I think the saying is “you can please all of the people…….

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Light shines through darkness, and you cannot overcome it. You can argue all day about it, but the tide will rise, and the sun will shine. You are pissing against the wind to try and stop the truth from shining out of the hearts of believers.

I really dislike hearing and reading bad language, and I especially hate to see Christians use it, we are meant to be set apart from the world. Anyway…. it’s YOUR version of the truth, but when your theology is scrutinised it falls apart at the seams. You have no answer to the hard questions. Truth must conform objectively to reality, and should be able to withstand a tough examination.

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You remind me of a person trying to plug holes in a dam that is about to burst. The truth that Satan doesn't want people to believe is that there is one God. This is the first commandment, and Jesus said the most important.

Jesus' references to the first commandment:
“You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve” (Mat 4:10). “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and the great commandment” (Mat 22:37).
“And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment” (Mk 12:30).
“You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve” (Luk 4:8).

I don’t see any mention of “one God” here.

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The Trinity sounds like an alien entity from Start Trek. A mysterious substance that spawns 3 minds. But I choose to believe the first commandment rather than an alien substance with 3 minds

If you were really the “lover of truth” you claim to be, you would allow the Bible to interpret itself, and not superimpose your preconceived notion that God is a single person onto the scriptural texts.

I will be away for the week. Be well all.

[Proclaimer]

Is 1:18,

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 26 2006,20:44)

If you assign divinity to them, then yes you are a polytheist. If we are sticking to dictionary definitions, that is.

Sure use the dictionary to say that Paul is a Polytheist. It was Paul who said that we will participate in divine nature. I merely repeated his words. If you cannot understand Paul's teachings it may be because you are lacking. But then again you did use the dictionary and we know that the dictionary will lead us into all truth (sarcasm for those who may think that I really believe and teach this). After all the dictionary was written by man and so if we want to trust man, then we can say that Paul taught polytheism by saying that we will partake in divine nature. Man paul got it so wrong aye! I mean the dictionary says…

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“dude who wrote Psalms” “my big bro” “coz”

No probs dude.
Hang 10 cuz.
Howz your mama?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 26 2006,20:44)

PSALM 96:5 For all the gods of the peoples are idols, But the LORD made the heavens.

To Is 1:18,

Of course, any god that man makes is an idol. I am not arguing with that, I am teaching that.

Who made up the Trinity? Man did. Man concluded that this model/idol was the one that seemed to make sense of the mysteries of scripture.

You said it Is 1:18, All gods of men are idols. I agree, so maybe you need to repent of making God into an image that he is not. God is not a pagan trinity. He is not the result of philosophies and man made models. God is. We can only know him by revelation alone. What he decides to reveal to us about himself is all that we can know. BTW: Man doesn't let man participate in divine nature it is God who does. So I guess that man is not a false god made by mans hands is he?

But maybe there is some evidence for saying that God is a Trinity. We know that the Trinity is not taught by anyone in scripture, but check out the pics below.

NOTE: These photos are an exclusive to Heaven Net. You saw it here first

This is an image from space of the Trinity. Note that the earth can be seen to the bottom of the picture. This will give you some appreciation for the scale of the Trinity.

Below: The paprazi snapped this photo of the Trinity when he(s) thought he was undercover while visiting Germany. He forgot to hide his other 2 faces I guess.

I am not sure which one of these is suppose to be Jesus because they are all equal and like each other, and they are one entity.

Next we have the Trinity in India. He looks a little like Indian, but then I suppose he becomes like them to win them.

Below we have proof of the Trinity in France:

And finally the Trinity in Egypt:

NOTE: these are not suppose to be idols, because they are the Trinity.

So I must decide 2 things. Which is right, scripture which is the strongest evidence against God being a Trinity (purely because it is not mentioned or taught), or the photos which to me are the strongest evidence for the Trinity to date. Secondly I must decide: is the Trinity an idol made by man?

It's a tough one.

Mmmmm. You know what? I think I will stick to scripture. Scripture tells us that Jesus said he was the son OF GOD, and even Peter said that and Jesus said that only his Father could have revealed this truth to him. But the Father didn't reveal to Peter that Jesus was God or one third of a Trinity.

How can anyone who is guided by God's Spirit not teach that Jesus is the son of God. The Trinity is a farce. The Trinity is a creation of man. An idol fashioned by the intellect of man and even fashioned by the hands of man.

Professing themselves to be WISE, they became FOOLS. This is a very serious matter, yet it is also quite hilarious how the proud can be made to look like fools.

Jesus is not God himself, he is the son OF God. Similarly, You are not your Father, you are his son. You are of him or from him and Jesus is OF God. It says it clearly in the scripture below:

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 27 2006,04:07)

Quote Light shines through darkness, and you cannot overcome it. You can argue all day about it, but the tide will rise, and the sun will shine. You are pissing against the wind to try and stop the truth from shining out of the hearts of believers. I really dislike hearing and reading bad language, and I especially hate to see Christians use it, we are meant to be set apart from the world. Anyway…. it’s YOUR version of the truth, but when your theology is scrutinised it falls apart at the seams. You have no answer to the hard questions. Truth must conform objectively to reality, and should be able to withstand a tough examination.

Is 1:18,

You really seem to have a problem when I use scripture. I quote Paul word for word, and you say I am a polytheist. Then I say the word 'piss' and you say I am using BAD language.

Really Is 1:18, your argument is with the author of scripture it is not with me at all, for I am just quoting scripture. Please don't shoot the messenger. I mean how much of what you say should I take seriously if you are offended by scripture itself?

To those who read here:
Below are the latest scriptures that Is 1:18, cannot fit into his model of God and theology. So if you quote them then he will pass judgement on you. You have been warned.

2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

According to Is 1:18, if you believe the above scripture, then you believe in polytheism for only God is divine. The next scripture is an offence to him, in that it uses bad language.

2 Kings 18:27
But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?

Also lookup the following scriptures where so-called bad language is used. Try the KJV for the most offensive translation of these so-called offensive words in the following verses:
1 Samuel 25:21-23
1 Samuel 25:34
1 Samuel 25:33-3
1 Kings 14:10
1 Kings 14:9-11
1 Kings 16:11
1 Kings 16:10-12
1 Kings 21:20-22
2 Kings 9:8
2 Kings 9:7-9
2 Kings 18:27

Is 1:18, your bible is obviously an offence to you. It teaches polytheism and uses bad language, (in your judgement). What are you going to do? Judge the bible as you have judged me?

It seems to me that from the time you came here, you have been offended by scripture. Even scriptures like “for us there is one God the Father” is an offence to you. How do I know? Because you condemn me when I believe these words by telling me that this belief is incorrect.

So it makes me wonder what spirit you are of. If scripture is an offence, is it the Spirit of God that led you to this conclusion?

Jesus is the son of God. He is of God. He is the firstborn of all creation. He doesn't know all things. He only does that which his Father tells him to do, or that which he sees his Father doing. He does God's will even over his own will. He even called his Father his God and our God while he was been taken up, and then in Heaven, he calls his Father my God there as well. All scriptural Is 1:18, but an offence to you and your man-made model of God.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 27 2006,04:07)

Jesus' references to the first commandment: “You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve” (Mat 4:10). “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and the great commandment” (Mat 22:37). “And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment” (Mk 12:30). “You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve” (Luk 4:8). I don’t see any mention of “one God” here.

Is 1:18,

My Quote:

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The truth that Satan doesn't want people to believe is that there is one God. This is the first commandment, and Jesus said the most important.

First commandment in order of importance according to Jesus.

You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve” Even this verse the 1st commandment given to Moses, calls God HIM, not them. So yes God is one according to this verse too.

God is a “HIM”, not “them”. He is one, not triune. A word we can use for TRI is POLY. E.g., a triangle is a polygram. Or belief in a triune God is polytheism.

[david]

Babylon, Assyria, Egypt, Greece, Rome, Syria, Buddhism and Hinduism all have had their trinities, way before the idea of a trinity was ever established in Christendom.
False religion had its beginning at Babel (later known as Babylon) (Gen. 10:8-10; 11:4-9) In time, Babylonish religious beliefs and practices spread to many lands. So Babylon the Great became a fitting name for false religion as a whole, or the world empire of false religion.
What influence did the very religious Babylon have on the world?

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“Egypt, Persia, and Greece felt the influence of the Babylonian religion . . . The strong admixture of Semitic elements both in early Greek mythology and in Grecian cults is now so generally admitted by scholars as to require no further comment. These Semitic elements are to a large extent more specifically Babylonian.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., pp. 699, 700.

When you look all over the world, you see many flood stories, with great similarities. Did they all come about by chance, and yet are so strikingly similar? Or was there one common origin? Of course there was–the actual flood. When the stories are so similar, it seems hard to believe that they arose that way by chance.
Ancient pagan cultures worshiped trinities. So did Jehovah, the true God give these pagan religions the idea of worshiping gods in groups of three? Unlikely. Well who did? Why are groups of threes so common? In Egypt there were even groups of threes of threes, called “eneads.” Why don’t we find any ancient cultures worshiping gods in groups of 4, or 5, or 6, or 22? There seems to be a commonality.
It wasn’t only “Egypt, Persia, and Greece” that felt the influence of Babylonian religion. There is a reason that the harlot or world empire of false religion is aptly named Babylon the Great. It is because Babylon stands for false religion and many false religious ideas were established in the very religious Babylon.
Did Christendom borrow the idea of the trinity and mold it to their beliefs (coincidentally, around the time of the apostasy) or did pagan religions all over the world somehow instinctively know to worship gods in threes, and that, even before Christians figured it out? Which is more reasonable?

An apostasy was foretold within the Christian congregation. Much of Christendom’s teachings have striking similarities with Babylon. Babylon had triads of gods.
What does it mean that ancient pagans were worshiping trinities for thousands of years before the “Christians” deciphered the trinity from the Bible?

Considering that Christendom has no problem adopting paganism, or “practicing paganism,” as Liljon concedes, and considering that the trinity is nowhere expressly taught in scripture but only said to be gleaned or implied and even referred to as a “mystery” by the pope, (remember, “babel” means “confusion” in Hebrew) how can you be so certain that the trinity doctrine that has been sculpted over time wasn’t borrowed from paganism? So many other things were.

david

[Sammo]

Language changes over time. Why needlessly offend someone, then make a big deal out of it?

Chill out folks!

[Cubes]

t8

What images!  What lies and misrepresentation of the holy scriptures.  The images and concept of the trinity is opposed to and contrary to all that is of God!  

Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. 8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

May God help those who believe the simple, straight forward text above be free of all lies and come to the Father through his only begotten son, Christ Jesus whom he also raised from the dead just as we who believe shall be raised.

[Proclaimer]

Amen Cubes.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (david @ Feb. 27 2006,19:02)

Babylon, Assyria, Egypt, Greece, Rome, Syria, Buddhism and Hinduism all have had their trinities, way before the idea of a trinity was ever established in Christendom. False religion had its beginning at Babel (later known as Babylon) (Gen. 10:8-10; 11:4-9) In time, Babylonish religious beliefs and practices spread to many lands. So Babylon the Great became a fitting name for false religion as a whole, or the world empire of false religion. What influence did the very religious Babylon have on the world? Quote “Egypt, Persia, and Greece felt the influence of the Babylonian religion . . . The strong admixture of Semitic elements both in early Greek mythology and in Grecian cults is now so generally admitted by scholars as to require no further comment. These Semitic elements are to a large extent more specifically Babylonian.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., pp. 699, 700. When you look all over the world, you see many flood stories, with great similarities. Did they all come about by chance, and yet are so strikingly similar? Or was there one common origin? Of course there was–the actual flood. When the stories are so similar, it seems hard to believe that they arose that way by chance. Ancient pagan cultures worshiped trinities. So did Jehovah, the true God give these pagan religions the idea of worshiping gods in groups of three? Unlikely. Well who did? Why are groups of threes so common? In Egypt there were even groups of threes of threes, called “eneads.” Why don’t we find any ancient cultures worshiping gods in groups of 4, or 5, or 6, or 22? There seems to be a commonality. It wasn’t only “Egypt, Persia, and Greece” that felt the influence of Babylonian religion. There is a reason that the harlot or world empire of false religion is aptly named Babylon the Great. It is because Babylon stands for false religion and many false religious ideas were established in the very religious Babylon. Did Christendom borrow the idea of the trinity and mold it to their beliefs (coincidentally, around the time of the apostasy) or did pagan religions all over the world somehow instinctively know to worship gods in threes, and that, even before Christians figured it out? Which is more reasonable? An apostasy was foretold within the Christian congregation. Much of Christendom’s teachings have striking similarities with Babylon. Babylon had triads of gods. What does it mean that ancient pagans were worshiping trinities for thousands of years before the “Christians” deciphered the trinity from the Bible? Considering that Christendom has no problem adopting paganism, or “practicing paganism,” as Liljon concedes, and considering that the trinity is nowhere expressly taught in scripture but only said to be gleaned or implied and even referred to as a “mystery” by the pope, (remember, “babel” means “confusion” in Hebrew) how can you be so certain that the trinity doctrine that has been sculpted over time wasn’t borrowed from paganism? So many other things were. david

I totally agree david.

[liljon]

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

10 For with the heart one believes resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.

11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him shall not be put to shame.”

12 For there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord of all is rich to all who call upon Him.

13 For “whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear apart from a preacher?

Jesus is LORD
2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
and so is the Spirit.

[david]

sure. Jesus is described as a lord. Do you know why, in verse 13, “lord” is in capital letters, Liljon? Many Bibles, where they have removed God's name, (Jehovah), they replaced it with “GOD” or “LORD” in capital letters. In this particular verse, the writer is quoting from the Hebrew scriptures, where there is no doubt that God's name is. It is extremely unlikely that they would change the quote and remove God's name. Hence, your Bible has the word “lord” but in capital letters to show the change.

In this verse, verse 13, it is definitely referring to Jehovah, because it's quoted from a scriture that is definitely referring to Jehovah.

Anyway, I'm not sure what point you are making here, liljon, and I also wonder what you think of the paganism in Christendom.

david.

[liljon]

The point im making is that Jesus is being called YHVH and so is the Holy spirit.

[OneoftheLordsGenerals]

When i say True God, i mean worthy of Praise and Worship and total devotion. When i say False, it means there teachings and such are worth nothing in comparision to The Gloriousness and Awesomeness of The True God.

Psalm 86:8
There is none like unto You among the gods, O Lord, neither are their works like unto Yours.

Psalm 95:3
For the Lord is a great God, and a great King above all gods.

Psalm 97:7
Let all those be put to shame who serve graven images, who boast in idols. Fall prostrate before Him, all you gods. [Heb 1:6 ]

Yes we are gods. But not as True, compared to God. Therefore in our humbleness we accept that God is above all and serve not the lower(false) gods of this age or any other age. Even though we are called gods in the scriptures, how can we as mere mortals even want such a title. A title at times allows men to boast.
So i pray to be careful when you call yourself a god, for there are many who might be confused. Also i believe there are many other things we as man are called. Blasphemers, idolaters, lovers of self, greedy, selfish, whoremongers, etc. Why not choose one of these sinful titles instead?
Even though I am called a god, I wanna have no part in being one and choose to bow down before the True God, who reigns Supreme.

[david]

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The point im making is that Jesus is being called YHVH and so is the Holy spirit.

I'm sorry Liljon, I must be a little slow. Where does anything you quoted show Jesus being called Yahweh, or the holy spirit being called Yahweh???

david.
Oh, also wondering what you think of this post:

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Quote (david @ Feb. 27 2006,19:02) Babylon, Assyria, Egypt, Greece, Rome, Syria, Buddhism and Hinduism all have had their trinities, way before the idea of a trinity was ever established in Christendom. False religion had its beginning at Babel (later known as Babylon) (Gen. 10:8-10; 11:4-9) In time, Babylonish religious beliefs and practices spread to many lands. So Babylon the Great became a fitting name for false religion as a whole, or the world empire of false religion. What influence did the very religious Babylon have on the world? Quote “Egypt, Persia, and Greece felt the influence of the Babylonian religion . . . The strong admixture of Semitic elements both in early Greek mythology and in Grecian cults is now so generally admitted by scholars as to require no further comment. These Semitic elements are to a large extent more specifically Babylonian.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., pp. 699, 700. When you look all over the world, you see many flood stories, with great similarities. Did they all come about by chance, and yet are so strikingly similar? Or was there one common origin? Of course there was–the actual flood. When the stories are so similar, it seems hard to believe that they arose that way by chance. Ancient pagan cultures worshiped trinities. So did Jehovah, the true God give these pagan religions the idea of worshiping gods in groups of three? Unlikely. Well who did? Why are groups of threes so common? In Egypt there were even groups of threes of threes, called “eneads.” Why don’t we find any ancient cultures worshiping gods in groups of 4, or 5, or 6, or 22? There seems to be a commonality. It wasn’t only “Egypt, Persia, and Greece” that felt the influence of Babylonian religion. There is a reason that the harlot or world empire of false religion is aptly named Babylon the Great. It is because Babylon stands for false religion and many false religious ideas were established in the very religious Babylon. Did Christendom borrow the idea of the trinity and mold it to their beliefs (coincidentally, around the time of the apostasy) or did pagan religions all over the world somehow instinctively know to worship gods in threes, and that, even before Christians figured it out? Which is more reasonable? An apostasy was foretold within the Christian congregation. Much of Christendom’s teachings have striking similarities with Babylon. Babylon had triads of gods. What does it mean that ancient pagans were worshiping trinities for thousands of years before the “Christians” deciphered the trinity from the Bible? Considering that Christendom has no problem adopting paganism, or “practicing paganism,” as Liljon concedes, and considering that the trinity is nowhere expressly taught in scripture but only said to be gleaned or implied and even referred to as a “mystery” by the pope, (remember, “babel” means “confusion” in Hebrew) how can you be so certain that the trinity doctrine that has been sculpted over time wasn’t borrowed from paganism? So many other things were.

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Quote (OneoftheLordsGenerals @ Mar. 01 2006,14:38)

So i pray to be careful when you call yourself a god, for there are many who might be confused. Also i believe there are many other things we as man are called. Blasphemers, idolaters, lovers of self, greedy, selfish, whoremongers, etc. Why not choose one of these sinful titles instead?

Thanks for your post OneoftheLordsGenerals.

Not sure if you are talking about me, but I do not call myself a god. I just pointed out that Christ said that “to whom the word of God came“. He then went on to say that he was the son of God

John 10:31-36
31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?
35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

The crazy thing about these verses is that the Jews thought Jesus was claiming to be God, and today the Trinitarians say the same thing. But the truth is written for all to see. Jesus said “Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?”.

In other words Jesus wasn't blasheming because he wasn't saying he was God, he corrected them by saying that he was instead saying that he was the Son of God.

This confession was also Peter's confession and Jesus said, “Upon this rock I will build my church”.

OneoftheLordsGenerals, the rock that you should be building on is not that Jesus is God, rather that Jesus is the son of God. Please do not pass over this lightly. Paul warned believers back in his day with the following words:

Acts 20:30-32
30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Well this was written and it has happened. We are told to be on guard because deceivers will come from our own ranks and draw men to themselves. This is why we have denominmations. Men have followed men and declared that they are followers of Peter, Paul, and Jesus. We are also told that there will be a great falling away before the end. All these lies will conclude with the Man of Lies being revealed.

I ask you OneoftheLordsGenerals, to listen to scripture. Do not listen to any man, not even me. But if I speak scripture to you, then listen to that and reason with the scriptures and let the Spirit of God give you understanding. Men will try to give you a counterfeit in the form of creeds and philosophy, but let the scriptures speak to your heart.

For it is the truth that sets us free.

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