Who is this Jesus?

[Woutlaw]

Quote (Sultan @ Feb. 22 2006,20:18)

Quote (liljon @ Feb. 22 2006,10:33) sultan, how many gods? ONE not three. they are the same God. Also similarity doesn't mean copying. They are many other similarites in pagan religions. Your belief system is three distinct persons that are all 100% God. That is three distinct gods 100%  according to the churhch fathers. Yo cannot have 3 distinct persons that are all 100% God and then say they are the same. If they are all one God then Jesus is the Father, and the Holy ghost is the Father. Now we have another erroneous teaching known as Jesus only. Is that what you believe?

right on Sultan

[kenrch]

The Father is God, The Son is God, The Holy Spirit is God.

The Father and Son have the same Spirit.

Luk 10:21 In that hour the Holy Spirit filled Jesus with joy. Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for hiding these things from wise and intelligent people and revealing them to little children. Yes, Father, this is what pleased you.

Please notice:
In that hour the Holy Spirit filled Jesus with joy. Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth,…

As soon as the Holy Spirit showed up Jesus began talking to the Father. The Holy Spirit is the Father.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

When two or three gather in Jesus' name; Who is in our midst?
The Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit is Jesus.

Father + Son + THEIR Spirit= Three

[Is 1:18]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 15 2006,07:37)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 08 2006,19:20) Hi t8, A question for you: Does John 10:34 teach that men are divine? Yes or No. I also have some follow up questions depending on your answer. Be well John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? Hi Is 1:18, I wouldn't say that this verse is saying that men are divine. That would be reading too much into it.

Ok then. I'm glad we have established that John 10:34 does not teach us that men are divine.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 04 2006,14:42)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 05 2006,05:02) If you are proposing that these Lords and gods are also “divine” than you are truly a polytheist. To Is 1:18, Ok let's see. Jesus says we are gods (theos) and Paul teaches us that we will partake in the divine nature. So am I to conclude o great teacher that Jesus and Paul were polytheist? Again there is egg on your face Is 1:18. For I am merely repeating Jesus and Paul's words. I suggest strongly Is 1:18 that you read James 3:1 for your own good.

….and it appears that I don't have egg on my face after all.

[Ramblinrose]

Being filled with Holy Spirit does not make Yahshua Almighty YHWH.

It says of John the baptiser:
Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

If people can be given/filled with Holy Spirit, how can the Holy Spirit be a person?  You cannot fill one person with another. When John was born, he was gifted with a mind that was already in alignment with YHWH.  He was not to drink strong drink – would this be because alcohol alters the state of the mind?

It says of the disciples:
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

When the disciples were filled with Holy Spirit they had an understanding of YHWH and the scriptures.  They couldn’t seem to get it together before this but their minds being aligned to that of the Father was the answer to their understanding.

It says of those that ask:
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

When we ask our heavenly Father to give us the Holy Spirit we are asking him to line our minds up with his.

Being given/filled with Holy Spirit does not make one Almighty God.  It does not make the disciples, Yahshua not us, Almighty God.

I see this as one way to understand Holy Spirit but there are other applications.

[Is 1:18]

Quote

You cannot fill one person with another

2 CORINTHIANS 13:5
5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?

What do you make of this verse Ramblinrose?

[Is 1:18]

or this one:

GALATIANS 4
6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!“

[hybrid]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 23 2006,08:09)

Quote You cannot fill one person with another 2 CORINTHIANS 13:5 5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test? What do you make of this verse Ramblinrose?

Mark 16:19-20
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. -NIV

Col 3:1
1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God-NIV
[/B]

if christ was at the right hand of God in heaven and in our hearts on earth, it meant that he can be at two place at the same time.

is that what you called omnipresence?

[david]

Quote

David, Jesus was crucified on a cross http://www.truthnet.org/Christianity/Apologetics/newtestament10? Also Immortal Soul was not borrowed from paganism but was taken from the bible. The Trinity has its foundations within scripture. You have given no proof of christinizing beliefs but only of practices.

Still, Liljon, if so called Christians are willing to take on pagan practices and call them christian, as you say, doesn't that make you want to question something such as the trinity when it's known that many trinities existed in ancient pagan cultures all over.
Secondly, no, the Bible uses the greek words: “stauros” and “xylon” to describe what Jesus died on. I too can put down websites:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_symb.htm
http://www.thewordsofeternallife.com/cross.html
But I would rather actually discuss (in the cross thread) the clearly pagan orgins of the symbol of the cross, and how the words stauros and xylon are used elsewhere in the Bible. Jesus died on a stauros. The symbol of the cross, much like the many “practices” that you admit are from paganism. If they could do it with practices Liljon, what is to stop them incorporating pagan beliefs? Both are wrong.

Liljon, I know you say that the trinity has its foundations in scripture. But what I am saying is: Doesn't it bother you that the same people that were willing to wrongly incorporate pagan practices into their life found themselves surrounded with pagans who worshipped trinities, and that because of this it would make it easier to convert the pagans who already had crosses and worshipped trinities if so called Christianity did the same?
Jesus fortold an apostasy. It had already begun while the apostles were still alive. Corrupt men were sneaking into the congregations. Much of Pauls letters, Peters, Jude, etc, deal with this influence. Because this was fortold and because trinities were found everywhere in paganism, doesn't that make you wonder?

[david]

In the Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, vol. 14, p. 273, we read,

“In the Egyptian churches the cross was a pagan symbol of life borrowed by the Christians and interpreted in the pagan manner.”

I use this only as an example of the fact that Christendom has a great tendancy to adopt pagan practices and beliefs. I would love to discuss the symbol of the cross in the appropriate thread. I would love to look at how the Bible actually uses those words. When I think of the trinity, I think of one of just many pagan ideas brought into Christendom.

1. Can I find any scripture that mentions “Trinity”?
2. If it is not expressly taught, but implied as some claim, why would the Bible only “imply” its most important teaching–who God is?
The Bible is clear on other basic teachings; why not on this, the most important one? Would not the Creator of the universe author a book that was clear on his being a Trinity if that were the case? Why would God leave it to imperfect men to struggle with centuries later?
3. Can I find any scripture that says that God is made up of three distinct persons, Father, Son, and holy spirit, but that the three are only one God?
4. Can I find any scripture that says that the Father, Son, and holy spirit are equal in all ways, such as in eternity, power, position, and wisdom?
5. Can I find a single scripture where the Bible equates the holy spirit with the Father?
6. Why did this “central doctrine” not become dogma until the fourth century—amid bitter controversy that caused widespread confusion?’

Easy: Because it is not in the Bible. It is borrowed from paganism, as are many of Christendom's practices and beliefs. This was fortold.

david.

[Proclaimer]

Is 1:18,

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 24 2006,01:17)

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 04 2006,14:42) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 05 2006,05:02) If you are proposing that these Lords and gods are also “divine” than you are truly a polytheist. To Is 1:18, Ok let's see. Jesus says we are gods (theos) and Paul teaches us that we will partake in the divine nature. So am I to conclude o great teacher that Jesus and Paul were polytheist? Again there is egg on your face Is 1:18. For I am merely repeating Jesus and Paul's words. I suggest strongly Is 1:18 that you read James 3:1 for your own good. ….and it appears that I don't have egg on my face after all.

“We are gods and we will partake if divine nature.”

Jesus and Paul's words. I believe them. Yet you seem to think that I am a polytheist because I repeat and believe Jesus when he said “we are gods”.

The egg is still there Is 1:18, albeit a bit fried by now.

It wasn't me who came up with that idea. It was Christ himself and he was quoting the dude who wrote Psalms. This is why I can boldy claim that we are gods/(theos).

Mess with me and my big bro (Yeshua) might have to sort you out, coz I am speaking his words here.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (hybrid @ Feb. 22 2006,22:59)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 17 2006,20:25) When Yahshua came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the son of man am? And they said, Some [say that you are] Yahchanan the immerser: some, Yliyah; and others, Yeremyah, or one of the prophets. He said unto them, But whom say you that I am? And Simon Kepha answered and said, You are the Messiah, the son of the living Yahweh. And Yahshua answered and said unto him, Blessed are you, Simon son of Yahnah: for flesh and blood has not revealed [this] unto you, but my Father Who is in heaven. And I say also unto you, That you are Kepha, and upon this rock I will build this house; and the gates of sheol shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of Yahweh: and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Then he gave his disciples a strict warning that they should tell no man that he was Yahshua the Messiah. From that time forth began Yahshua to show unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Yerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. (Mattithyah 16:13-21) Hmmm! Is it not strange that no man thought that he was “God” or Father Yahweh back then? Certainly he was the son of the living Yahweh just as Yahshua's Father Who is in heaven had revealed to Kepha! isn't it not strange also that noone thought of him as an angel or just a mere man also? hmmmm… .

That's right. He is the Logos of God and he came in the flesh. So he came to us as a man, but he was the Logos/Word.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 24 2006,06:37)

To Is 1:18, “We are gods and we will partake if divine nature.” Jesus and Paul's words. I believe them. Yet you seem to think that I am a polytheist because I repeat and believe Jesus when he said “we are gods”. It wasn't me who came up with that idea. It was Christ himself and he was quoting the dude who wrote Psalms. This is why I can boldy claim that we are gods/(theos). Mess with me and my big bro (Yeshua) might have to sort you out, coz I am speaking his words here.

“dude who wrote Psalms”
“my big bro”
“coz”

Interesting post t8, I haven't seen this side of you before, a far departure from the t8 of old. Anyway, the point you made about Jesus saying “we are gods” would be a good one if indeed there was any textual evidence attesting to the fact that these men were even saved!! Psalm 82 unmistakably bears out that they were far from righteous in God's eyes, in fact they were described as “wicked” magistrates who would “die like men”. If these men were divine then so is every single person who has ever lived, and the word divine is rendered meaningless.

I think it's very obvious that the words “you are gods” in Psalm 82:6 was a literary device, a form of hebraic irony/sarcasm. Otherwise you will have to explain to me how wicked judges, who will die like men (on account of their evil deeds), could possibly be considered “divine” (present tense) by God. Jesus application of this verse was not to teach that men were divine but to show His accusers that their charge of blasphemy against Him (an offence punishable by stoning in 1st century Israel) was groundless, given that men are called theos in scripture.

Quote

The egg is still there Is 1:18, albeit a bit fried by now.

I have no idea what this means.  

[Proclaimer]

OK let's backtrack. Why are you calling me a polytheist?
Last time it was because I said there are many gods.
Is that still the case?

BTW you argued with the t8 of old and accused him of being a polytheist. Are you accusing the new t8 too?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 25 2006,04:31)

I think it's very obvious that the words “you are gods” in Psalm 82:6 was a literary device, a form of hebraic irony/sarcasm. Otherwise you will have to explain to me how wicked judges, who will die like men (on account of their evil deeds), could possibly be considered “divine” (present tense) by God. Jesus application of this verse was not to teach that men were divine but to show His accusers that their charge of blasphemy against Him (an offence punishable by stoning in 1st century Israel) was groundless, given that men are called theos in scripture.

Is 1:18,

Well sarcasm or not, there are many gods and there are many lords, (that is not sarcastic), it's a fact. But believing that scripture and other similar ones, doesn't make one a polytheist.

For me there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ, but for you there is One God the Father, one God the Son, and one God the Spirit. That's 3 in anyone's book.

So I believe that there is one GOD and there are also many gods, including images of God. You believe that there are 3 who are called God and no gods.

You say 3 + 0.
I say 1 + many.

Who is the POLYtheist?

Remember that a 3 sided shape is a triangle, also known as a POLYgon.

Careful where you point your finger.

Jesus said “that he was one with God, and with us (Church). He also said that we can be one with each other and with him. That shows me that there is one God and we are one with him by his Spirit. We also know from scripture that we will participate in divine nature. i.e., 1 + many. 1 God who wants to be one with people and who is one with his son.

Everything in this post I have said to you can be proven by scripture. In fact all I am doing is quoting scripture. You cannot prove your creed(s) because they are conclusions drawn from other philosophies that try to use a scripture here and there to give it some credibility.

Is 1:18, the time has come. There is nothing you can do to stem the tide. As someone once said: “you can decieve all the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you cannot decieve all the people all of the time.

Light shines through darkness, and you cannot overcome it. You can argue all day about it, but the tide will rise, and the sun will shine. You are pissing against the wind to try and stop the truth from shining out of the hearts of believers.

You remind me of a person trying to plug holes in a dam that is about to burst.

The truth that Satan doesn't want people to believe is that there is one God. This is the first commandment, and Jesus said the most important.

The Trinity sounds like an alien entity from Start Trek. A mysterious substance that spawns 3 minds.

But I choose to believe the first commandment rather than an alien substance with 3 minds.

[hybrid]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 24 2006,06:44)

That's right. He is the Logos of God and he came in the flesh. So he came to us as a man, but he was the Logos/Word.

hiya t8,
how come i know you even if  i really don't know you? i mean i never met you neither i knew what you looked like. but because of your posts, i think i knew that you exists. i know your beliefs, your sense of humor, your aspirations, your sarcasm, the things you  agree and disagree, etc.

so you see ,to me your posts represents who you are. to me your posts were essentially you.

and so i confess, from the beginning was your post and your posts was with you and your posts was you.

.

[OneoftheLordsGenerals]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 24 2006,06:37)

Is 1:18, Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 24 2006,01:17) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 04 2006,14:42) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Feb. 05 2006,05:02) If you are proposing that these Lords and gods are also “divine” than you are truly a polytheist. To Is 1:18, Ok let's see. Jesus says we are gods (theos) and Paul teaches us that we will partake in the divine nature. So am I to conclude o great teacher that Jesus and Paul were polytheist? Again there is egg on your face Is 1:18. For I am merely repeating Jesus and Paul's words. I suggest strongly Is 1:18 that you read James 3:1 for your own good. ….and it appears that I don't have egg on my face after all. “We are gods and we will partake if divine nature.” Jesus and Paul's words. I believe them. Yet you seem to think that I am a polytheist because I repeat and believe Jesus when he said “we are gods”. The egg is still there Is 1:18, albeit a bit fried by now. It wasn't me who came up with that idea. It was Christ himself and he was quoting the dude who wrote Psalms. This is why I can boldy claim that we are gods/(theos). Mess with me and my big bro (Yeshua) might have to sort you out, coz I am speaking his words here.

Psalm 86:8
There is none like unto You among the gods, O Lord, neither are their works like unto Yours.

Psalm 95:3
For the Lord is a great God, and a great King above all gods.

Psalm 96:4
For great is the Lord and greatly to be praised; He is to be reverently feared and worshiped above all [so-called] gods. [Deut 6:5; Rev 14:7 ]

Psalm 96:5
For all the gods of the nations are [lifeless] idols, but the Lord made the heavens.

Psalm 97:7
Let all those be put to shame who serve graven images, who boast in idols. Fall prostrate before Him, all you gods. [Heb 1:6 ]

Psalm 97:9
For You, Lord, are high above all the earth; You are exalted far above all gods.

Psalm 135:5
For I know that the Lord is great and that our Lord is above all gods.

I agree that we are called gods, yet it is because we are lesser then God. We are false gods, cuz we adhere to what we want to believe and it always isn't the right way to believe. We spend our life hording material possesions and stating what we have, what job we have, how great a parent we are, and so on and so on. We become boastful and proud and try to make oursleves better then others and look out for our own gain.
A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
A powerful ruler or despot

By dictionary definition we are gods also. Yet we are false gods. We need to realize that our being 'gods' is a futile attempt at life and realize hey, i don't wanna be a god, I wanna worship the only True God (The Godhead/Father, Son, & Holy Spirit).

[Proclaimer]

Hi OneoftheLordsGenerals,

Thanks for the scriptures you quoted. I had overlooked some of them.

I believe and still believe that to be a son of the Most High is to be a god. Not all gods are false.

It appears that you disagree with that. Is my assumption correct?

[OneoftheLordsGenerals]

Yes i understand what you are saying, but i disagree. All other Gods are false. Jeremiah 10:10 (Whole Chapter)
But the Lord is the true God and the God of truth (the God Who is Truth). He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His wrath the earth quakes, and the nations are not able to bear His indignation.

2 Chronicles 15:3 (Whole Chapter)
Now for a long time Israel was without the true God, without a teaching priest, and without law.

If God is the True God then all others are false. You can Only be Fully true, as in The True God, if there is no falseness in you(gotta be perfect) Since only God is perfect, then all other gods are false. You can only have one True God. Thats what it means by True.

No where in scripture does it say there are multiple true Gods. Only One True God(Three personas-One True God).

[Proclaimer]

Thanks OneoftheLordsGenerals,

Yes these elohim(s) & theos(s) are false, in the sense that God himself is the only True God:

Exodus 20:23
Do not make any gods (Elohim) to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods (Elohim) of silver or gods (Elohim) of gold.

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god (theos) of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God (theos).

But even Satan is a true god in a sense because he is the true god of this age/world. If he was the false god of this age/world then that title would belong to another and he would be an imposter. But he really truly is the god of this age/world.

So there are many gods, but we need to read the context to determine what kind of god is being spoken of.

But both Psalms 82:6 & John 10:34 assumes that we are gods not because we are false, but because we are sons (made in his image).

John 10:34
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)'

Psalms 82:6
“I said, `You are “gods” (elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.'

Psalm 97:7
All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (elohim)!

But Paul teaches us correctly that there are many gods and there are many lords. E.g., there are landlords, warlords, etc, but Jesus is the true Lord or the Lord in the highest position. Same with God, he is the Most High. The Most High what? The Most High God. So of all the gods, he is the Most High God, the Original, the Eternal.

Now if we look at scripture we are told that Jesus is Lord, (not LORD). But it was God (LORD/YHWH) who made Jesus Lord of his creation. Just as Pharaoh made Joseph lord of his kingdom, God has made Jesus to be Lord of his creation.

Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

God and lord are titles that can apply correctly to many. But the context is the important part. E.g., the god of this age, is completely different to the Most High God. Yet both are truly gods (theos) are they not?

For God (YHWH) is the God of all good, and Satan is the god and father of all lies and murder, etc.

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