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When Yahshua came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the son of man am? And they said, Some [say that you are] Yahchanan the immerser: some, Yliyah; and others, Yeremyah, or one of the prophets. He said unto them, But whom say you that I am? And Simon Kepha answered and said, You are the Messiah, the son of the living Yahweh. And Yahshua answered and said unto him, Blessed are you, Simon son of Yahnah: for flesh and blood has not revealed [this] unto you, but my Father Who is in heaven. And I say also unto you, That you are Kepha, and upon this rock I will build this house; and the gates of sheol shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of Yahweh: and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Then he gave his disciples a strict warning that they should tell no man that he was Yahshua the Messiah. From that time forth began Yahshua to show unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Yerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. (Mattithyah 16:13-21)
Hmmm! Is it not strange that no man thought that he was “God” or Father Yahweh back then?
Certainly he was the son of the living Yahweh just as Yahshua's Father Who is in heaven had revealed to Kepha!
Hi Seekingtruth,
I take your points on board and especially agree that we should be judges of fruit and not suspected motives. I also think its poor witness to involve yourself in arguments of a personal nature in a public christian message board. However, I think we all should be able to defend ourselves when a false accusation(s) is made against us. It's important that my posts are attributed the same weighting in terms of integrity as others for fair debate. I cannot just let efforts to undermine their credibility by inferred (but untrue) prejudical influences on my theology just slide. Thanks for your coments, my friend.Be well.
seekingtruth,Feb. wrote:Quote What happened here was not harmony with all points of view, but align yourself with truth or bye bye. T8
I apologize as I seem to of offended you. However I would like to point out that I did not say we should align with all points of view, but with all scripture.I in no way meant we should (in anyway) compromise the word of God. My only point was to try and encourage all parties to not forget that if we are truly seeking truth we are brothers.
When the 5000 left the Lord it was because the teaching was “too hard”. I believe that Jesus blasted those who where perverting, or refusing to accept, truth, for selfish gain.
I do believe that we are to rebuke others and not end up being “nicer than God” but I also believe that we are called to judge fruits, not motives. As I read through the above I felt there was questioning of motives.
You do show great wisdom and patience. I only wanted to encourage both sides to not get into the flesh. Possibly because it has taken me 25 years to find and accept what truths I have, I know God is long suffering.
May the Lord bless you.
[B]
Bless you seekingtruth,I do agree with both of your posts and you haven't offended me.
I was pointing out that with some people, they have been so hard of hearing for so long here, that I do not have a problem with challenging them quite strongly to show clearly where they are really coming from. I do this not with people who earnestly seek the truth, but with those who ignore scripture when it is given to them time and time again, and who continue to teach people things that cannot be backed up with scripture. The people I am talking about are those who trust in creeds or philosophies as greater than that of scripture. Like the pharisees they should be challenged and exposed. It even says somewhere in scripture that we shouldn't even let such a person into our house, who teach falsely or who preach another gospel. (Something like that, I just cannot find that scripture for now.)
Anyway, the battle between light and darkness is about the truth vs lies. Jesus is the truth and Satan is the Father of lies.
Jesus said that he came to destroy the works of the wicked one. Jesus then built his Church to carry on his work, till he comes back to restore all things, (of course he didn't leave us alone).
I challenge such people not to belittle them, but to demonstrate to those are listening that their teaching is baseless, lest somehow they draw men unto themselves. In the last 5 years there have been a number of these kinds of people, and when they were challenged properly, most just took off and headed for the hills.
If however what a person says actually agrees with scripture, but differs from my understanding, then I and I hope others are willing to change to align to the truth. That is the point. But like gold, truth is refined in the fire and it does get a bit hot here sometimes.
I appreciate your honesty seekingtruth. Bless you and please keep posting my friend.
I remind all of the following: We are accountable for every word that is spoken, especially teachers.
James 3:1
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.Opinion is one thing, but teaching is another.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 18 2006,15:25) When Yahshua came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the son of man am? And they said, Some [say that you are] Yahchanan the immerser: some, Yliyah; and others, Yeremyah, or one of the prophets. He said unto them, But whom say you that I am? And Simon Kepha answered and said, You are the Messiah, the son of the living Yahweh. And Yahshua answered and said unto him, Blessed are you, Simon son of Yahnah: for flesh and blood has not revealed [this] unto you, but my Father Who is in heaven. And I say also unto you, That you are Kepha, and upon this rock I will build this house; and the gates of sheol shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of Yahweh: and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Then he gave his disciples a strict warning that they should tell no man that he was Yahshua the Messiah. From that time forth began Yahshua to show unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Yerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. (Mattithyah 16:13-21) Hmmm! Is it not strange that no man thought that he was “God” or Father Yahweh back then?
Certainly he was the son of the living Yahweh just as Yahshua's Father Who is in heaven had revealed to Kepha!
Thanks for this post Frank4YAHWEH. I agree with it.CHRISTIANITY WAS CORRUPTED BY PAGANISM.
–We see this with holidays (Christmas, Easter, Halloween, etc, etc, etc.)
–We see this with symbols such as the cross which was a sacred symbol in numerous places far before Jesus, whereas the Bible says Jesus died on a stauros or xylon (stake, timber)
–And we see this with the certain beliefs such as the immortality of the soul, which has been taught in some version in just about every religion for all time. Yet, the Bible doesn't teach this.JESUS AND THE APOSTLES FORTOLD SUCH THINGS.
Now when it comes to the trinity, maybe it's just a coincidence that throughout the ancient world, as far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common. That influence was also prevalent in Egypt, Greece, and Rome in the centuries before, during, and after Christ.
So there are two possibilities:
1. Maybe the Bible teaches the trinity, as some say, and paganism also teaches it, and in fact paganism taught it before it was revealed through the scriptures.
2. Or, perhaps, it came from Bablyonia, filtered through Greek philosphophers and was brought into Christendom by the apostate false teachers with the help of Constantine who wanted a united empire with united beliefs.Here's what amazes me: Many so called Christians celebrate halloween, a satanic holiday covered in chocolate and fun.
Do they wonder why Satanists also hold that day as sacred? Do they think: Maybe it's a coincidence. Maybe it just so happens to be a holy day and a satanic day.
No. They don't really ask that question. Or, it doesn't bother them enough to make them think about it.Can one of those “Christians” who celebrates halloween say that they aren't celebrating paganism because it also happens to be now considered a “holy day”–All hallows eve?
Some on here may say they are not teaching a creed or Greek philosophy, and what they mean by that is they are teaching what they believe to be in the Bible, but in truth, it is also found in Greek philosophy and the formation of the trinity came about over many years through many discussions and refining and playing around with words.
If you think it is in the Bible and think you're teaching what is in the Bible, then be aware that you are also teaching what must coincidently agree with many ancient pagan cultures. You may say that “that” is not what you are teaching, yet that is what you agree with, if by nothing else, then by coincidence.
Being that “false stories” and false teachers and apostasy was fortold and being that various trinities are found in paganism and being that the trinity wasn't really clarified until some time after Jesus and the apostles left the scene, it has to make one wonder. Is all this just a coincidence?
Do the pagans who worship three gods have it right? They could not have borrowed the idea from the Bible.
Did the different pagans around the world read the Bible before it was produced and say, OH, a trinity, we should worship trinities too. Did the pagans have councels for hundreds of years to discover the existence of the so called Bible trinity? Or were they smarter than the “Christians” who took that long? Who gave them the idea of worshiping trinities? Why is it so common? Does there not seem to be a point of origin, a commonality? Why are not groups of four gods worshiped, or groups of nine? Why did the pagans worship groups of three gods first? Coincidence?Give a person a Bible without God's name removed and ask him to read it for the first time. Or give 1000 people the Bible and tell them to read it for the first time. Will a single one of them arrive at the trinity belief?
If you had given them the mission of uniting their pagan friends thoughts with that of the Bible, they could possibly make a believable story with enough tweaking and playing. And it would only take a couple hundred years.
david.
The New Encyclopædia Britannica says:
“Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states:
“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
The Encyclopedia Americana says:
“Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.
On the other hand, hundreds of years before Jesus Christ came to earth as a man, the trinity teaching was firmly entrenched among peoples whose religions were based on mythology. If there is no link between the two, then:
Why, for thousands of years, did none of God’s prophets teach his people about the Trinity?
Why did Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers?
Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the “central doctrine” of faith, as the Catholic church claims?
Are Christians to believe that centuries after Christ and after having inspired the writing of the Bible, God would back the formulation of a doctrine that was unknown to his servants for thousands of years, one that is an “inscrutable mystery” according to the pope, “beyond the grasp of human reason,” one that admittedly had a pagan background and was largly a matter of church politics?According to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel,
“The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says:
“The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899.david
THE TRINITY HAS CONFUSED GOD IN THE MINDS OF MANY. Even a pope once called it an “inscrutable mystery.”
Certainly, God’s interests are not served by making Him, His Son, and His holy spirit confusing and mysterious. And it does not serve the interests of people to be confused.
WHO BENEFITS BY THIS CONFUSION?
The more people become confused about God and his purposes, the better it suits Satan the Devil, God’s opposer, the ‘god of this world,’ who works to ‘blind the minds of unbelievers.’ (2 Corinthians 4:4)
Satan has painted Jehovah to be a cruel vindictive God who tortures people forever alive in fire. He has gone to great lenghts to hide God's name and would love for people to be so confused about God that it's hard to believe you can get close to a confusing God that is a complete mystery. MAYBE IT'S JUST ANOTHER COINCIDENCE that SATAN (God's chief opposer and slanderer) benefits by people believing in the trinity. Or, maybe it's a part of Satan's plan and this belief became popular among “Christians” after Jesus and the apostles left the scene, during the time of the fortold apostasy during many other deviations from truth.Christendom incorporated the pagan belief in the trinity into it's teachings during a time when many other pagan beliefs and practices were slipping in. This was instigated by Roman emperor Constantine, who was not interested in the truth about this matter but wanted to solidify his empire made up of pagans and apostate Christians. Far from being a development of a Christian teaching, the Trinity was evidence that Christendom had apostatized from the teachings of Christ and had adopted pagan teachings instead.
david.
To david,
Quote (david @ Feb. 22 2006,01:40) Give a person a Bible without God's name removed and ask him to read it for the first time. Or give 1000 people the Bible and tell them to read it for the first time. Will a single one of them arrive at the trinity belief?
I agree that if they read scripture in an honest way with no taint to certain doctrine, they would see that Christ is the son of God and that God is Christ's Father.But they could see the Trinity, only if they were taught the Trinity beforehand, or told what to believe. Then they would see the scriptures through Trinity shaded glasses. I know because I was once a victim. I too was told that God was a Trinity and I just assumed that they knew what they were talking about. Who was I to question? I was just a new believer in God.
But once you have been hooked with the Trinity bait, any scripture that contradicted the Trinity as you are bound to read later, would probably be put away for later as you could assume that you were still too young or immature to tackle what appeared to be a contradiction.
From there, the work of certain philosophers could keep the proud happy for years if you decided to listen to them and let them interpret scripture for you. And so a slow but definate deception is at work. Then there is always the greatest defense of all. “God is so past our understanding that trying to fully understand the Trinity is impossible.”
But it is actually God who allows men to believe a delusion, just like those who believe in evolution. Evolution is the dominant belief in science and the Trinity is the dominant belief among Christians or those who call themselves christian. As it is written: “The whole world is under the sway of the evil one.”
But this is God's doing. He lets men believe what their evil hearts are looking for. God even does the same thing to those who worship the creature more than the creator, so that they will lust after their own flesh if they follow that path for long enough. He hands them over to what they are seeking.
Of course if we seek truth, then truth is what we will get. It works both ways.
Scripture is incredibly clear as to who Jesus is:
He is the son of God and the messiah. He was the Logos that came in the flesh. He is the image of God, the firstborn of all creation.
It seems strange to me that many do not see that scripture is not good enough for them, especially considering that scripture has many references as to who and what Jesus is.
Why can't we all just believe what scripture says about Jesus? Would that not sort it all out. That way there would be no argument or doubt. But many choose to err from scripture and I am sure they do so at their own expense. For God can hand such people over to any manner of demon doctrine as there appears to be many, perhaps enough to cater for all tastes.
Whether cross or stake jesus died for us but evidence destroys the myth that jesus was on a stake. Also the trinity is not three gods so what does pagans worshipping 3 gods (and tons more) have to do with anything.
Quote “God is so past our understanding that trying to fully understand the Trinity is impossible.”
Yes, but what I would say to that is: the word “Father” and the word “son” are not past our understanding. And Jehovah wants us to know him, doesn't he? Doesn't John 17:3 say that He wants us to take in knowledge of him and his son? Why would he choose those misleading words to describe themselves?
It's not so much that it's an “inscrutable mystery,” as the pope declared. It's more so that it doesn't make sense, so let's call it a mystery. Father and son are equal in age, wisdom, power, knowledge. It defies everything we know about those words. So let's call it a mystery.Quote Whether cross or stake jesus died for us but evidence destroys the myth that jesus was on a stake. Also the trinity is not three gods so what does pagans worshipping 3 gods (and tons more) have to do with anything.
Liljon, I would love to discuss the pagan symbol of the cross with you, how it became Christianized, and what the words stauros and xylon mean. But I've already created a thread for that, and you can disagree with me there, if you have anything to actually say.
Liljon, don't you find it at all interesting that Assyrians, babylonians, egyptians, persians, and several others I presently forget worshipped God's in threes?
Doesn't it bother you at all that for thousands of years the Jews worshipped God, not as a trinity and that around the time Jesus fortold there would be an apostasy, suddenly, actually, rather slowly and through much controversy, this new doctrine which matched up with paganism arose?
Because that would certainly bother me. It would bother me enough at least to look into it. Why do so many religions worship God's in threes?Quote (liljon @ Feb. 21 2006,10:43) Whether cross or stake jesus died for us but evidence destroys the myth that jesus was on a stake. Also the trinity is not three gods so what does pagans worshipping 3 gods (and tons more) have to do with anything. Quote Also the trinity is not three gods so what does pagans worshipping 3 gods (and tons more) have to do with anything. The son is not the Father, but He is God, The Holy Spirit is not the Father but He is God. The Bible says that Yahweh is ONE LORD (Deut.6:4). If the Son and Spirit are God, but not the father, how many gods is that? Father is God+ Son is God+ Spirit is God= 3 Gods.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 17 2006,20:25) When Yahshua came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the son of man am? And they said, Some [say that you are] Yahchanan the immerser: some, Yliyah; and others, Yeremyah, or one of the prophets. He said unto them, But whom say you that I am? And Simon Kepha answered and said, You are the Messiah, the son of the living Yahweh. And Yahshua answered and said unto him, Blessed are you, Simon son of Yahnah: for flesh and blood has not revealed [this] unto you, but my Father Who is in heaven. And I say also unto you, That you are Kepha, and upon this rock I will build this house; and the gates of sheol shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of Yahweh: and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Then he gave his disciples a strict warning that they should tell no man that he was Yahshua the Messiah. From that time forth began Yahshua to show unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Yerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. (Mattithyah 16:13-21) Hmmm! Is it not strange that no man thought that he was “God” or Father Yahweh back then?
Certainly he was the son of the living Yahweh just as Yahshua's Father Who is in heaven had revealed to Kepha!
isn't it not strange also that noone thought of him as an angel or just a mere man also?hmmmm…
.
HI LILJON,
Quote Whether cross or stake jesus died for us but evidence destroys the myth that jesus was on a stake. Also the trinity is not three gods so what does pagans worshipping 3 gods (and tons more) have to do with anything. The trinity is not 3 gods so what does pagans worshipping 3 gods have to do with anything? Really?
Well, it's just that they are exactly the same, except they were doing it first. Some of the cultures that worshipped groups of three gods, also held that it was somehow actually one god. I'll say that again: Just as you claim “Christians” discovered the trinity hundreds of years after Jesus and the apostles, thousands of years before, while the Jews were worshipping one God, pagans were worshipping groups of three all over the place and Egypt for example sometimes looked at that group of three as one, it seems.After the confusion of languages at Babel, the unsuccessful tower builders scattered to make a new beginning, taking along their Babylonish religion. Some of those frustrated builders settled in the area that became known as Egypt. Babylonia’s religion left a deep mark on Egypt. Throughout Egypt generally the company of gods of a town or city were three in number. In time, a principal triad developed, a holy family composed of Osiris, the father; Isis, the mother; and Horus, the child.
Isis is sometimes portrayed in Egyptian statues offering her breast to her child in a pose very reminiscent of Christendom’s virgin-and-child statues and paintings, which came on the scene over two thousand years laterHistorian Will Durant, in The Story of Civilization: Part III, (page 595) observed: “Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity.”
London’s British Museum contains artifacts that show ancient trinities, such as Egypt’s Isis, Harpokratēes, and Nephthys. A publication of the museum’s Department of Medieval and Later Antiquities notes the following that was inscribed on ancient jewelry:
“Obverse [side], the Egyptian gods Horus-Baït (hawk-headed), Buto-Akori (the snake), and Hathor (frog-headed). Reverse [side], the Greek verse ‘One Baït, one Hathor, one Akori; the power of these is one. Hail, father of the world, hail, three-formed god!’ The gods are thus identified as three manifestations of one power, probably the sun-god.”
The power of these three is one???
A three formed god???
SOUNDS FAMILIAR DOESN’T IT?
And in the book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: “The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology.”So what does pagans worshipping three gods (yet sometimes viewed as one) have to do with anything, Liljon? Everything.
All over the world, ancient cultures worshipped trinities–Assyria, Babylon, Buddism, Egypt, Greece, Hinduism, Syria, Rome, etc.
For quite some time, God's people, the Israelites worshipped one God. They did not believe in a trinity.
The question: Did Jesus and the early Christians believe in a trinity?
We do know they did fortell an apostasy, a falling away from truth.
A couple hundred years later, Constantine wanted unity in his empire.
It was an easy leap to make, since so much of the influential world already worshipped trinities in one form or another.
Looking at the creeds, it seems the “Christian” trinity slowly came to it's previous form. It took some work.Liljon, pagan trinities have everything to do with what we are talking about. They are what gave birth to Satan's false confusing teaching of a Christian trinity that makes Jehovah unknowable, and makes a lot of people not even attempt to figure out what the pope himself has said is a “mystery.”
This teaching benefits Satan and slanders God Almighty.sultan, how many gods? ONE not three. they are the same God. Also similarity doesn't mean copying. They are many other similarites in pagan religions.
Liljon, the cute little easter bunny and the easter eggs are from pagansim and are ancient symbols of fertility.
CHRISTENDOM BORROWED THEM FROM PAGANISM.
The christmas tree, exchanging of gifts, the lights surrounding the house, holly, mistletoe, the celebration itself, the date–are all borrowed from pagansim and pagan festivals.
CHRISTENDOM BORROWED THEM FROM PAGANISM.
The cute little satanic demons that children dress up in on halloween and which most “christians” celebrate, CHRISTENDOM ADOPTS PAGANISM ALL THE TIME.
The symbol of the cross was worshipped in various forms in many pagan cultures for thousands of years. Jesus died on what is called a “stauros” or “xylon” and those words have the basic meaning of “stake, timber.”
The belief in the immortal soul, it too has been the belief of almost all pagan religions forever. CHRISTENDOM BELIEVES: IF YOU CAN'T FIGHT THEM, ADOPT THEM AND GIVE THEM A CHRISTIAN NAME.So when we realize that pagans have worshipped trinities, some even worshipping triads of trinities, when we realize how popular they have been in paganism all over the world, and WE KNOW FOR A FACT THAT CHRISTENDOM HAS A TENDENCY TO “CHRISTIANIZE” PAGAN BELIEFS AND FESTIVALS, and and we know that Jesus fortold such things, and that the trinity doctrine developed to where it is now gradually and through much controversy, you just have to wonder.
To simply dismiss this and say: So what, “there are many other similarities in pagan religions,” bothers me. Because those many other similarities are for the most part, because Christendom pagansim.
dave
Quote (liljon @ Feb. 22 2006,10:33) sultan, how many gods? ONE not three. they are the same God. Also similarity doesn't mean copying. They are many other similarites in pagan religions.
Your belief system is three distinct persons that are all 100% God. That is three distinct gods 100% according to the churhch fathers. Yo cannot have 3 distinct persons that are all 100% God and then say they are the same. If they are all one God then Jesus is the Father, and the Holy ghost is the Father. Now we have another erroneous teaching known as Jesus only. Is that what you believe?sultan, just because you say it is so doesn't make it true.
David,
Jesus was crucified on a cross http://www.truthnet.org/Christianity/Apologetics/newtestament10?
Also
Immortal Soul was not borrowed from paganism but was taken from the bible. The Trinity has its foundations within scripture.
You have given no proof of christinizing beliefs but only of practices.liljon wrote:
Quote You have given no proof of christinizing beliefs but only of practices. Yes, liljon, traditional christianity only practices paganism. They don't believe in it.
my point was that in the past and still today some christians practice things that are pagan in origin but teachings like immortal soul, trinity were not borrowed from paganism.
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