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Jesus Christ has a body, God does not.
John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,Hi t8,
Acts 10. 38
” you know of Jesus of Nazareth ,how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and power..”of us believers the Word says in Phil 2.13
” for it is God who is at work in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.”So in Coll 2.9 when Paul says
” For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form ”
it is talking of the Spirit of God in Jesus, not suggesting Jesus was the Father or equal to the Father.Hi ,
Ok we know Jesus had his separate divine nature before his birth. Is that what he emptied himself of to become like us?[phil 2.6f] If so what was left after he was emptied? There can't have been nothing left.He was conceived of the Spirit so he always had the Spirit and so sought the God's ways from his youth but did he not have any of his original divine attributes?
When he was baptised surely he was filled with the Father's Spirit, the Holy Spirit, as was seen and proved by his work in power beginning. So that when people saw him they saw the Father, as he said. And he did the Father's work.
I suggest when he was born into a human body he may have been a soul. If a soul is a vessel as shown in 2 Tim 2.20f.
“In every large household therre are vessels, not only of gold and silver, but also of clay, some for distinguished use and others for common use. The lesson is that if a person will but cleanse himself of evil things he may be a distinguished vessel, dedicated and useful to the master of the house and ready for every noble service”Also the soul is mentioned in 1 Thess 5.23
'May he preserve you whole and entire ,spirit, soul and body,irreproachable at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”He still maintained his ability to make his own mind up as he had to choose to do the will of the Father.If these things are true he certainly became like us in every way [Heb 2.17]and made it possible to follow him as we can walk in the same path.However I am only proposing thoughts and would love to hear some other views.
Hi ,
I know Jesus was like us in every way except sin. So he lived in a human body like ours. He was conceived like us except that his Father God was his father, though through Joseph he maintained the line of David. Did he then carry the genes of Mary his earthly mother as that is what conception implies?Who knows?
According to commonly accepted DNA research I make the following assumptions:
I think that Jesus had the DNA of his mother, but he would also need the male DNA for the male determines the sex of the child. The female DNA is only capable of creating females as females can only pass on the X chromosome. It is the Male who gives either the X or Y chromosome that determines the sex of the child. All males have both X & Y and females have X & X chromosomes. So the combinations of these are XX or XY and they should pan out to about a 50% chance of either.
This is also in line with Eve coming from Adam, as his DNA would have been a sufficient template for the human race, both male and female.
Now Adam was created by the Lord God and his DNA would have been coded by God's own hand, as Adam wasn't born of a woman like the rest of us. So I guess it is possible that Jesus humanity was contributed by Mary and the rest hand coded by God as in the case of Adam. If God handcoded what Mary couldn't give, (the Y chromosome), then God had control over the babies sex and other attributes. Both Adam and Christ have the title Son of Man.
With regards to choosing the X chromosome, God could choose who the Messiah would be born through and he chose Mary who was blessed among woman.
Of course it is also possible that Jesus humanity was entirely hand coded by God with none of Mary's DNA. This would mean that Jesus and Adam were prototypes in a human sense, with the difference being in the way that they came into the world. But I suspect that Jesus would share his mother's DNA, unlike Adam. Jesus did come in the likeness of man and lived among us, but he didn't marrry and reproduce. His mission was not of this world.
Adams entry into this world was somewhat different. He was created from the elements in the ground and the Lord God breathed into his nostrils to create a living soul.
This post is all based on the accepted science of genetics and reasonable imagination. So it really is speculation and not entirely taken from scripture.
Yes,t8,it is interesting,
If Jesus had not partaken of Mary's chromosomes would she be said to have “conceived” as described 3 times in the Word? Would Jesus not have had a perfect body unsusceptible to death and disease and would he not have had unfair advantages over us if he had no natural genes? Would he still have looked like his siblings and peers as his fellow jews saw no reported differences?Deut 18:18
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.2 Samuel 7:12
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.1 Kings 2:33
Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed for ever: but upon David, and upon his seed, and upon his house, and upon his throne, shall there be peace for ever from the LORD.1 Chronicles 17:11
And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.Psalms 89:3 3
I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, 4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith YAH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Matthew 1:1
The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham:Mark 10: 47 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me.
48 And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me.Luke 4:22
And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph‘s son?John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”John 6:42
And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”John 7 :42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that YAH had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up the Messiah to sit on his throne;
Acts 13:22-23 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfill all my will.13:23 Of this man's seed hath YAH according to his promise raised unto Israel a Savior, Yahshua:
Romans 1:1
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:Romans 9:3
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.1 Corinthians 15: 21
“For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.”Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.Hebrews 7:14
For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.2 Timothy 2:8
Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:Revelation 5: 5
“And one of the elders said to me, weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book and to loose the seven seals thereof.”Revelation 22: 16
“I, Yahshua, have sent mine angel to testify to you these things in the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star.”Great work RR,
The only problem is that Joseph, the offspring of David, was not the genetic father of Jesus although as his parent he fulfilled the prophecy. So if Jesus had inherited human genes they could only come through Mary?I got this from a Catholic website. Might be something of worth in there. I add it to not promote endless arguments about genealogies, but to aid in learning more about Christ and the prophecies concerning him.
1 Timothy 1:4
nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work–which is by faith.Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.Here goes:
Whether Christ took flesh of the seed of David?
Objection 1. It would seem that Christ did not take flesh of the seed of David. For Matthew, in tracing the genealogy of Christ, brings it down to Joseph. But Joseph was not Christ's father, as shown above (28, 1, ad 1,2). Therefore it seems that Christ was not descended from David.
Objection 2. Further, Aaron was of the tribe of Levi, as related Ex. 6. Now Mary the Mother of Christ is called the cousin of Elizabeth, who was a daughter of Aaron, as is clear from Lk. 1:5,36. Therefore, since David was of the tribe of Juda, as is shown Mt. 1, it seems that Christ was not descended from David.
Objection 3. Further, it is written of Jechonias (Jer. 22:30): “Write this man barren . . . for there shall not be a man of his seed that shall sit upon the throne of David.” Whereas of Christ it is written (Is. 9:7): “He shall sit upon the throne of David.” Therefore Christ was not of the seed of Jechonias: nor, consequently, of the family of David, since Matthew traces the genealogy from David through Jechonias.
On the contrary, It is written (Rm. 1:3): “Who was made to him of the seed of David according to the flesh.”
I answer that, Christ is said to have been the son especially of two of the patriarchs, Abraham and David, as is clear from Mt. 1:1. There are many reasons for this. First to these especially was the promise made concerning Christ. For it was said to Abraham (Gn. 22:18): “In thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed”: which words the Apostle expounds of Christ (Gal. 3:16): “To Abraham were the promises made and to his seed. He saith not, 'And to his seeds' as of many; but as of one, 'And to thy seed,' which is Christ.” And to David it was said (Ps. 131:11): “Of the fruit of thy womb I will set upon thy throne.” Wherefore the Jewish people, receiving Him with kingly honor, said (Mt. 21:9): “Hosanna to the Son of David.”
A second reason is because Christ was to be king, prophet, and priest. Now Abraham was a priest; which is clear from the Lord saying unto him (Gn. 15:9): “Take thee [Vulg.: 'Me'] a cow of three years old,” etc. He was also a prophet, according to Gn. 20:7: “He is a prophet; and he shall pray for thee.” Lastly David was both king and prophet.
A third reason is because circumcision had its beginning in Abraham: while in David God's election was most clearly made manifest, according to 1 Kgs. 13:14: “The Lord hath sought Him a man according to His own heart.” And consequently Christ is called in a most special way the Son of both, in order to show that He came for the salvation both of the circumcised and of the elect among the Gentiles.
Reply to Objection 1. Faustus the Manichean argued thus, in the desire to prove that Christ is not the Son of David, because He was not conceived of Joseph, in whom Matthew's genealogy terminates. Augustine answered this argument thus (Contra Faust. xxii): “Since the same evangelist affirms that Joseph was Mary's husband and that Christ's mother was a virgin, and that Christ was of the seed of Abraham, what must we believe, but that Mary was not a stranger to the family of David: and that it is not without reason that she was called the wife of Joseph, by reason of the close alliance of their hearts, although not mingled in the flesh; and that the genealogy is traced down to Joseph rather than to her by reason of the dignity of the husband? So therefore we believe that Mary was also of the family of David: because we believe the Scriptures, which assert both that Christ was of the seed of David according to the flesh, and that Mary was His Mother, not by sexual intercourse but retaining her virginity.” For as Jerome says on Mt. 1:18: “Joseph and Mary were of the same tribe: wherefore he was bound by law to marry her as she was his kinswoman. Hence it was that they were enrolled together at Bethlehem, as being descended from the same stock.”
Reply to Objection 2. Gregory of Nazianzum answers this objection by saying that it happened by God's will, that the royal family was united to the priestly race, so that Christ, who is both king and priest, should be born of both according to the flesh. Wherefore Aaron, who was the first priest according to the Law, married a wife of the tribe of Juda, Elizabeth, daughter of Aminadab. It is therefore possible that Elizabeth's father married a wife of the family of David, through whom the Blessed Virgin Mary, who was of the family of David, would be a cousin of Elizabeth. or conversely, and with greater likelihood, that the Blessed Mary's father, who was of the family of David, married a wife of the family of Aaron.
Again, it may be said with Augustine (Contra Faust. xxii) that if Joachim, Mary's father, was of the family of Aaron (as the heretic Faustus pretended to prove from certain apocryphal writings), then we must believe that Joachim's mother, or else his wife, was of the family of David, so long as we say that Mary was in some way descended from David.
Reply to Objection 3. As Ambrose says on Lk. 3:25, this prophetical passage does not deny that a posterity will be born of the seed of Jechonias. And so Christ is of his seed. Neither is the fact that Christ reigned contrary to prophecy, for He did not reign with worldly honor; since He declared: “My kingdom is not of this world.”
Taken from http://www.newadvent.org/summa/403102.htm
There is one thing you fail to see. From bible prophecy the Messiah must come FROM THE SEED OF DAVID or he is not the promised Messiah. A SEED comes from the father, the mother carries an egg not a seed.
Versus from the OT and verses from the NT line up to acknowledge that he is from the SEED OF DAVID. Error lies in the interpretation of the virgin birth passages and with the belief that Yahshua existed before his birth.
Yahshua was born in all ways like his brethren, he was a 100% human-being conceived in his mothers womb in the same way all of us are and not some angelic being squeezed into the womb of Mary. Yahshua is from the SEED OF DAVID as he is from the seed of Joseph.
Gnostic belief of man/god children has truly influenced many.
You cannot be 100% human-being if you preexisted in some form before your birth. A human-being is the result of a males seed and a females egg.
Hi,]
We know that Joseph was a son of David as in Mt 1 20 when he was addressed by the Angel.
We know that Jesus was known by the jews to be a child of Joseph's from Mt 13.55.
We know that Jesus was addressed as “Son of David” several times in the NT and he did not deny it.
We know that Joseph was not physically the father of Jesus but who else knew this?.Who would have known the truth at that time?
Joseph, Mary, Elizabeth and Zechariah.
Obviously Luke and Matthew knew too but until after his death he seems to be known as a son of Joseph and Mary.Does God have to play by our rules? No. I do not think it likely either that the scriptures were manipulated to satisfy human rules
As Jesus said “He could raise up sons of Abraham from these stones.”I prefer to base my belief on who the Messiah shall be by the words of the prophets and not the words of men. (We must be as the Bereans, checking scripture (OT) to ensure truth).
Please read again the OT prophecies.
To be the Messiah he MUST be 'OF THE SEED OF DAVID':
2 Samuel 7:12
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.New Testament versus acknowledge this. It is only the virgin birth passages, interpreted with trinity bias (a pre-existent Messiah, etc). That hold error.
YHWH's word is truth. If he has said that the Messiah shall be 'of the SEED OF DAVID', then he shall be 'of the SEED OF DAVID'! The interpretation of NT writings must reflect this truth.
hey rr,
i can see your point, but when jesus asked who the messiah was, they replied the son of david… to which jesus said, why then, if david's son, does david call him lord? for david says of the messiah, the lord said to my lord sit at my right hand… etc, etc… this seems to backup nick's view… ??
Quote (Ramblinrose @ Nov. 06 2004,00:42) Yahshua was born in all ways like his brethren, he was a 100% human-being conceived in his mothers womb in the same way all of us are and not some angelic being squeezed into the womb of Mary. Yahshua is from the SEED OF DAVID as he is from the seed of Joseph. Gnostic belief of man/god children has truly influenced many.
You cannot be 100% human-being if you preexisted in some form before your birth. A human-being is the result of a males seed and a females egg.
Greetings Ramblinrose
I totally agree with you that Yeshua scripturally, must be of the seed of David; using all the scriptures that you pointed out.
From bible prophecy the Messiah must come FROM THE SEED OF DAVID or he is not the promised Messiah.
This I totally agree.However, Yeshua was not physically, biologically, a descendant of Joseph.
He was however, physically, biologically, a descendant of Mary which corresponded to him being physically, biologically, a descendant of David i.e. OF THE SEED OF DAVIDThat is, scripturally, he was of the SEED of David via his mother alone.
Don't confuse the word 'seed' in this context with out modern-day defns of seed (male) & ovum (female). The Bible word for seed meant BOTH!!
(I apologize now if I have misinterpreted your argument, you seem to me to state contrary to this, when you were stating “A SEED comes from the father, the mother carries an egg not a seed.”; again, I apologize if I have misinterpreted you.
)GOD caused the conception of Yeshua. The GOD who made the first Adam of the dust of the earth, is the same GOD who made the Last Adam [of the ovum] of a woman [Gal 4.4]; miraculously making a male human altho' a woman solely has the X chromosome.
Yeshua, is legally the son of Joseph as both genealogies show, giving him right to the throne of David.
Yeshua, is biologically, according to the flesh the son of David through Mary in fulfillment of 2 Sam 7.12, 1 Chr 17.11, Psa 132.11, Acts 2.30, 13.23, Luke 1.69, Rom 1.3, Psa 89.29,35-37, John 7.42 + all the other verses you quoted.As I stated earlier, scripturally, to be of the seed of a woman, means to be physically, biologically descended of that woman, just as much as saying to be of the seed of a man … SCRIPTURALLY.
'Seed of the woman' means scripturally, to be the literal children of that woman as much as to be of the 'seed of the man' means to be the literal children of that man.
Here are some examples of this usage …
The Hebrew word used is zera as in Gen 3.15.Speaking of Eve, … (Gen 4:25) And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed/ZERA instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
Abel therefore was the SEED of Eve (as much as Cain, Seth, etc)The angel said to Hagar … (Gen 16:10) And the angel of YAHWEH said unto her, I will multiply thy seed/ZERA exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Concerning Rebekah …
(Gen 24:60) And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed/ZERA possess the gate of those which hate them.(Lev 22:13) But if the priest's daughter be a widow, or divorced, and have no child [seed/ZERA], …
(Ruth 4:12) And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed/ZERAwhich YAHWEH shall give thee of this young woman.
(1 Sam 2:20) And Eli blessed Elkanah and his wife, and said, YAHWEH give thee seed/ZERA of this woman …
Like I said, I apologize if I have misunderstood your argument.
Oh BTW, I fully agree that Christ did not pre-exist his conception.Lastly, here are some websites that go into some detail about Christ's genealogies. …
Yours In Messiah
Adam Pastor“How then is the Messiah called David's son, if David referred to him as “Lord?”
Because the “Master” expected by King David was not only to be his physical descendant, but also David's Master, by virtue of this son's role and appointment by God as God's anointed agent.
To Adam Pastor
I disagree with you belief that a woman carries a seed.
In each of the verses you have quoted, each of the women was already with child or being told that they would be with child.
They are only considered to be carrying 'a seed' when with child, which means they first had to have sexual relations with a man to receive the seed.
Shalom
Hi RR,
To prove your theory you have to deny the virgin birth. What evidence to you have for these scriptures to be in error? That includes the one in Is 7.14 quoted in Mt 1.23 but also the words of the angel in Mt 1.20 and the statement recorded frequently that it was by the Holy Spirit the conception occurred.You also either have to accuse Joseph of sin in knowing his betrothed earlier than was acceptable [or you have to say Joseph's seed was placed supernaturally in Mary] do you not?The word says that she conceived prior to them living together[mt.1.18]. It also says that Joseph did not have relations with Mary before she bore Jesus [ Mt 1.25]
But was Joseph not surprised to find Mary was pregnant such that he wanted to end the engagement agreement quietly suggesting also he had not had relations with her?Again you must deny the statement in Lk 1.27 that Mary was a virgin when the angel was sent to her.
So if you have a conspiracy theory here it is so extensive as to bring the whole of the bible into disrepute. If it is not true then the Holy Spirit is slandered so it is a serious issue.
If Jesus did not exist as Son of God prior to his physical birth how do you explain away all the scriptures that say he did such as in Jn1,1Jn1,Hebrews1-2, Ps 2 etc etc?
I understand your situation and would like to hear more from you.
Quote (Ramblinrose @ Nov. 06 2004,03:21) … In each of the verses you have quoted, each of the women was already with child or being told that they would be with child. …
Hence, Mary was told she would be with child.
Hence, her question … How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? [Luke 1.34] Whereby the angel told her that this would be done by the miraculous power of GOD!
Her seed therefore his Christ.
The virginal conception of the Messiah is scriptural & true
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