Who is this Jesus?

[david]

This question Jesus put to them:

“YOU, though, who do YOU say I am? (Mt 16:15)

The question of identity. The question of who Jesus actually was. The question that this particular thread is about was asked and it was asked by Jesus himself.

In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (16:16)

Jesus' responce to his statment?
“Happy you are, Simon son of Jo´nah, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did.” (16:17)

Based on Jesus' responce, apparently Peter had it right when he said that Jesus was the SON OF God. He could have said: You are God. He didn't. He said: You are the “Son of” God.

The question of who Jesus was was asked. And it was answered. He is the Son OF God.

[david]

Kenrch, we are not in the millenium. I previously asked you if it seems that Satan is still influencing mankind. It seems to me he is.

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Jan. 18 2006,00:21)

This question Jesus put to them: “YOU, though, who do YOU say I am? (Mt 16:15) The question of identity.  The question of who Jesus actually was.  The question that this particular thread is about was asked and it was asked by Jesus himself.   In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (16:16) Jesus' responce to his statment? “Happy you are, Simon son of Jo´nah, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did.” (16:17) Based on Jesus' responce, apparently Peter had it right when he said that Jesus was the SON OF God.  He could have said: You are God.  He didn't.  He said: You are the “Son of” God.   The question of who Jesus was was asked.  And it was answered.  He is the Son OF God.

Amen David!

[Anonymous]

Numb- nuts[Adam Pastor of wolves] can you read Hebrew? whats your back round in Hebrew? can u understand simple english? did you read the english of the Hebrew of said verses? can u read english? can u understand english?

[Anonymous]

just looked at your web page , numb -nuts, you too are another wack job! Pastor of what? kiss my ass. you reject simple english, Hebrew would be to advanced for u.

[Anonymous]

i encourage all to read his wed page and see how whacked out he is, psycho!

[Anonymous]

Pastor Psyco, your a clown! people like you make me sick. So what are your credantials Rev. Psyco? what do you pastor and how big is your congretion? zilch? i`m guessing. Clown!

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Jan. 17 2006,23:34)

Quote (soxan @ Jan. 17 2006,08:03) If the Shema had intended to express absolute oneness, it would have used the Hebrew word yachid instead of echad. However, the word yachid is never used in reference to God (Elohim)! Hmmm! Either you don't know Hebrew well or you don't know how to count in Hebrew. The Hebrew for numeral one is … ECHAD Hence, the simple reason why ECHAD is used in the Shema because ONE means … ONE!! There is no better or simpler way to express Absolute Oneness than to use 'Numeral ONE' Hence, GOD is ONE … there is solely ONE being who is GOD, YHWH is ONE … YHWH is ECHAD

The Hebrew word “yachid” denotes absolute, indivisible singularity but “echad” does allow for plurality within unity.

e.g.

GENESIS 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one (echad) flesh.

One flesh – two persons.

[Adam Pastor]

Yes. But it is ONE Flesh not TWO Fleshes!
The two become Numeral One Flesh

ECHAD simply means NUMERAL ONE

If you see how ECHAD is used throughout the Hebrew Bible, it simply means Numeral One.

Yachid means alone, etc … it is not used as a numeral

Therefore, there is ONE GOD … ECHAD GOD
It is really that simple!!

[Adam Pastor]

BTW To whom it may concern …

My name is Adam Pastor i.e. Pastor is my surname!!

[Anonymous]

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/triunity.html “And I [YHVH]2 will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only [yachid] son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first-born. (Zechariah 12:10)

Of course, the last verse is a famous messianic prophecy proclaiming how the Messiah would be killed (see Jesus Christ – Messiah of the Rabbinical Writers). If the Shema had intended to express absolute oneness, it would have used the Hebrew word yachid instead of echad. However, the word yachid is never used in reference to God (Elohim)!

The Hebrew word translated “God” is the word El or Elohim. Elohim is the plural form of El. The plural form is used 2607 of the 2845 times the word “God” is used in the Old Testament. Not only is word for God usually used in the plural form, but several verses refer to God as “Us”:
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (Genesis 1:26)
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”– (Genesis 3:22)
“Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.” (Genesis 11:7)
Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!” (Isaiah 6:8)

[Anonymous]

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/trin02.html

[Anonymous]

read this Jesus as God (theos):

John 20.28: Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Romans 9.5: whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever

Titus 1.3-4: in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior; 4 to Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Tit 2.13: looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus; 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds

2 Peter 1.1: Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

[Adam Pastor]

Read this …

John 20.28

Romans 9.5

Titus 2.13

2 Peter 1.1

Concerning Titus 1:3-4

Yes. GOD is our Saviour. The ONE GOD, our Saviour,
raised up Jesus of Nazareth (cp. Judg 3.9, 15; Acts 13.23) to be the Saviour of the world.
Therefore, Jesus Christ is our Saviour by the power & appointment of God our Saviour.
There's No contradiction!!

Conc. Titus 1.3-4 – Can Only God Save?

A quote from page 114 of this thread.

Quote (Bastian @ Jan. 10 2006,02:20)

berean, You stated there is no savior but Yahweh. Yahweh is savior. Saviour, or Savior One that saves from danger or destruction Deliverer Rescue, save, ransom, reclaim, redeem There were many Saviours and deliverers spoken of in the Bible. They do not all refer to God. The book of Judges is about the (saviors) deliverers if you will, of Israel. Judges 3:8-10 9And when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer (same Hebrew word for 'Saviour') to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother. Judges 3:14-16 14So the children of Israel served Eglon the king of Moab eighteen years. 15But when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised them up a deliverer (same Hebrew word for 'Saviour'), Ehud the son of Gera, a Benjamite, a man lefthanded: and by him the children of Israel sent a present unto Eglon the king of Moab. The salvation spoken of in the Old Testament for the Nation of Israel is not to be confused with our eternal salvation through our Lord Jesus the Christ. God was the Nation Israel’s Savior, Salvation, and redeemer. He saved them from the hostile gentile Nations. From their enemies, from difficulty in life. 2 Samuel 22 1And David spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD had delivered him out of the hand of all his enemies, and out of the hand of Saul: 2And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; 3The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence. Psalm 18 1I will love thee, O LORD, my strength. 2The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower. 3I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies. Psalm 40:16-18 16Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: let such as love thy salvation say continually, The LORD be magnified. 17But I am poor and needy; yet the Lord thinketh upon me: thou art my help and my deliverer; make no tarrying, O my God. God delivered the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt He was there deliverer. He used Moses. Moses was a savior for the Israelites. When the Israelites went into captivity in Babylon they went after other gods. Yet, He did not turn His back on them because He did not want be defamed nor share His glory with an other ( the most misinterpreted scripture by trinitarians, and now you, I suppose) He was speaking of other gods. Not His precious son who earned His position, and had every right to share in the Glory of God. 2 Kings 13 4And Jehoahaz besought the LORD, and the LORD hearkened unto him: for he saw the oppression of Israel, because the king of Syria oppressed them. 5(And the LORD gave Israel a saviour, so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians: and the children of Israel dwelt in their tents, as beforetime. 6Nevertheless they departed not from the sins of the house of Jeroboam, who made Israel sin, but walked therein: and there remained the grove also in Samaria.) Hosea 13:3-5 3Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney. 4Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me. 5I did know thee in the wilderness, in the land of great drought. Again He is not talking about eternal salvation. But salvation from enemies and that He is the only God that can save them from calamity. obadiah 1:20      young 20And the removed of this force of the sons of Israel, That [is with] the Canaanites unto Zarephat, And the removed of Jerusalem that [is] with the Sepharad, Possess the cities of the south. 21And gone up have saviours on mount Zion, To judge the mount of Esau, And the kingdom hath been to Jehovah!' king james 20And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south. 21And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's. New american standard 20And the exiles of this host of the sons of Israel, Who are among the Canaanites as far as Zarephath, And the exiles of Jerusalem who are in Sepharad Will possess the cities of the Negev. 21The deliverers will ascend Mount Zion To judge the mountain of Esau, And the kingdom will be the LORD'S. ….

Scripturally, then, someone can be appointed by the ONE GOD to be a saviour … yet this doesn't make them Almighty GOD

Quote

This in and of itself shows that modern translators have a Trinitarian bias that was not in the original languages. The only reason to translate the same word as “Savior” when it applies to God or Christ, but as “deliverer” when it applies to men, is to make the term seem unique to God and Jesus when in fact it is not. This is a good example of how the actual meaning of Scripture can be obscured if the translators are not careful or if they are theologically biased. God’s gracious provision of “saviors” is not recognized when the same word is translated “savior” for God and Christ but “deliverer” for others. Also lost is the testimony in Scripture that God works through people to bring His power to bear. Of course, the fact that there are other “saviors” does not take away from Jesus Christ, who is the only one who could and did save us from our sins and eternal death.

Hope this post edifies …

[Bastian]

Adam,

Don’t waste your precious time. I stopped posting in this forum after I posted the above, and the response I received from berean was “yashua is the Aleph and the Tav, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

Eliyah, Kernch, what is truth, others, and I have given ample scripture to back up our position. If this was a court of law, the preponderance of the evidence that Jesus is not the Almighty God is staggering. Not only does berean not show us in scripture why he takes the position he does, he totally ignores pertinent questions asked of him by other posters, and answers questions, with a question.

I have my opinion on why he behaves thus. Nevertheless, for now will keep that to my self.

B.

[Woutlaw]

Right On Adam Pastor

[WhatIsTrue]

I wrote elsewhere:

Quote

FYI, You are abusing the Hewbrew language when you try to redefine “echad” to somehow suggest a Trinity.  Have you looked into this issue yourself, or are you simply passing on some common Trinitarian misinformation?  In any case, even a quick glance at any Hebrew lexicon will confirm that your use of “echad” is deceptive.  I would suggest going here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/ But for the sake of discussion, I will elaborate. Quote 'echad {ekh-awd'} Part of Speech adj Outline of Biblical Usage 1) one (number) a) one (number) b) each, every c) a certain d) an (indefinite article) e) only, once, once for all f) one…another, the one…the other, one after another, one by one g) first h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal) Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 952 AV – one 687, first 36, another 35, other 30, any 18, once 13,     eleven + 06240 13, every 10, certain 9, an 7, some 7,     misc. 87; 952 Do you see any reference to “compound unity” in this definition? Trinitarians take three verses where “echad” is used in reference to two things coming together and then try to redefine the word by that usage when the overwhelming majority of the word's usage simply means “one”, just like our English word!  In other words, just like our English word “one” does not mean “compound unity” just because we use it in the phrase “the two become one”, neither does the word “echad”.  In fact, “echad” has a more restrictive singular meaning than our English word “one”, as it is translated “only” on several occasions. Here's one example of “echad” translated as “only”: Quote 1 Kings 4:19 “Geber the son of Uri, in the land of Gilead, the country of Sihon king of the Amorites and of Og king of Bashan; and he was the only[echad] deputy who was in the land.” That would be a very strange usage of a word that means “compound unity”.  Don't you think?  Also notice that “echad” is used over 900 times in scriptures, (i.e. it is very common), and it is generally translated to mean “one (in number)”. By contrast, let's look at “yachid”, which Trinitarians say is the correct Hebrew word for “one (in number)”. Quote yachiyd {yaw-kheed'} Part of Speech adj, subst Outline of Biblical Usage adj 1) only, only one, solitary, one a) only, unique, one b) solitary c) (TWOT) only begotten son subst 2) one Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 12 AV – only 6, darling 2, only child 1, only son 1, desolate 1,     solitary 1; 12 Take special note of the KJV translation count.  Note that in the KJV, “yachid” is never translated as “one”, even though it is listed as one of its definitions.  So, by demonstration of scriptural usage, it is clearly not the appropriate word in Hebrew to use to describe God as one in number.  In fact, “yachid” is almost always translated as “only son” or “only darling”, and it's only used 12 times in the entire bible!  This alone demonstrates that it is not the common Hebrew word for “one (in number)”, whereas “echad”, by definition and by scriptural usage, is nearly always translated to mean “one (in number)”. (Don't take my word for it.  Go to Blue Letter and do a quick search on Strong's #0259.  The zero indicates that its a Hebrew word so don't drop it when you enter the number into the search field.) By the way, take a peek at the footnotes of the NIV Bible.  These footnotes help to flush out the true meaning, and usage of the word “echad”, in Deuteronmy 6:4. Quote 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one[echad]. Footnotes: Deuteronomy 6:4 Or The LORD our God is one[echad] LORD; or The LORD is our God, the LORD is one[echad] ; or The LORD is our God, the LORD alone[echad]. This verse has nothing to do with “compound unity”.  In fact, it is the greatest witness to the fact that God is one in number!  This is in stark contrast to the composite gods of the pagans from the time period when these words were first written down.  But that's a whole different subject matter altogether.

[Adam Pastor]

Thanks guys for your comments

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Jan. 18 2006,00:23)

Kenrch, we are not in the millenium.  I previously asked you if it seems that Satan is still influencing mankind.  It seems to me he is.

I posted that before I read your message——OK.

[Anonymous]

Hey big mouth you never did answer my question; can u read Hebrew? and to what degree? what kind of magic marker do you use when u read the bible in Hebrew and English? You and your wacked out friends;” no it doesn`t mean that. No, it doesn`t say that. no in Hebrew it means a number “. You guys make me sick. Clouds with no rain.

[Author]

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