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Quote (k4c @ Dec. 11 2005,22:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 11 2005,19:12) Hi k4c,
The angel of the Lord is only identified as “the angel of the Lord”
To go beyond this is to enter the fascinating but useless world of speculation.
This is where you fall short…I'll give you another clue.
Judges 13:18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?''
Hi k4c,
Speculation is normal and perhaps even healthy for us as we test out ideas and see if they can be verified in scripture just as the Bereans did. Only if they cannot be verified then they become proven as “vain speculations ” and discarded. We should not forget though that we have passed this way and note it as a false path.
I have speculated that Salome is a sister of Jesus. It is unprovable.
Looking at the scripture in Judges 13.18 it is possible that it was the mighty princely being Michael speaking because he is identified as one with special responsibilities over Israel.
Dan 12.1
“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people will arise..” But it is unprovable.'Michael' means”who is like God?” -a question and not a statement-is that not “wonderful”?
'Michael' also is a number in Israel. Who knows which number as it would be interesting to find out as may give clues too.But we can know it was not Jesus as he was made like to us in all ways[Heb 2.17]and none of us walked the earth before birth did we?
Hi Nick and All,
In Daniel Michael is one of the chief princes. That means that there are others like him, he is not unique. He is the prince over Israel that is what sets him apart. He contended with the devil over the body of Moses. I find it odd when Michael became a flesh being made a little lower then the angels he commanded demons, he had power over them, but not when he was their equal as a spirit being, interesting.
Be well, B.
Quote (Bastian @ Dec. 12 2005,20:55) Hi Nick and All, In Daniel Michael is one of the chief princes. That means that there are others like him, he is not unique. He is the prince over Israel that is what sets him apart. He contended with the devil over the body of Moses. I find it odd when Michael became a flesh being made a little lower then the angels he commanded demons, he had power over them, but not when he was their equal as a spirit being, interesting.
Be well, B.
Hi bastion,
I presume you are being sarcastic here and if so I agree. The doctrinal permutations and combinations possible if you discard the need for scriptural proofs are truly exponentialQuote (Bastian @ Dec. 12 2005,20:55) Hi Nick and All, In Daniel Michael is one of the chief princes. That means that there are others like him, he is not unique. He is the prince over Israel that is what sets him apart. He contended with the devil over the body of Moses. I find it odd when Michael became a flesh being made a little lower then the angels he commanded demons, he had power over them, but not when he was their equal as a spirit being, interesting.
Be well, B.
That word (one) can also be (first). If interpreted in light of Scripture the word would be (first) as in the beginning of God's creation.Revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.
Does not the Bible say that Jesus was made a little lower than angels and yet He still commands demons. How can this be so? I'll tell you how, because anointed Him to do so.
Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; how he went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
Even the Apostles themselves casted out demons, healed the sick and raised the dead just as Jesus did. The miracles the Apostles did were so powerful that it caused the people of their day to say, 'The gods have come down to us in human form'. Does this sound familiar?
Acts 14:10-11 So, Paul shouted, “Stand up on your feet!'' The man jumped up and began walking around. And when the crowds saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in Lycaonian, “The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!”
Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,19:16) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,14:04) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,14:51) K4C,
I'm still waiting for my scripture that says Jesus is Michael. I hope you're not waiting for a new bible translation to come out with the verse in it (joke).
Do you believe Jesus preexisted?If so, how?
I'm still waiting for my scripture. If what you believe is biblical why are you trying to ask me questions? Please give me the scripture and the debate is over or maybe there is no scripture, and so we have to speculate until we can rationalize that Jesus was Michael. John 1:1 and 1:14 tell us how Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. See how easy that was. No speculation, I'm not answering your question with a question, I'm just giving you the scripture.
I have given several dozen of Scriptures throughout this forum. I'll have to go step by step so it will be easier to grasp.Do you believe Jesus preexisted?
Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,00:26) Quote (Bastian @ Dec. 12 2005,20:55) Hi Nick and All, In Daniel Michael is one of the chief princes. That means that there are others like him, he is not unique. He is the prince over Israel that is what sets him apart. He contended with the devil over the body of Moses. I find it odd when Michael became a flesh being made a little lower then the angels he commanded demons, he had power over them, but not when he was their equal as a spirit being, interesting.
Be well, B.
That word (one) can also be (first). If interpreted in light of Scripture the word would be (first) as in the beginning of God's creation.Revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.
Does not the Bible say that Jesus was made a little lower than angels and yet He still commands demons. How can this be so? I'll tell you how, because anointed Him to do so.
Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; how he went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
Even the Apostles themselves casted out demons, healed the sick and raised the dead just as Jesus did. The miracles the Apostles did were so powerful that it caused the people of their day to say, 'The gods have come down to us in human form'. Does this sound familiar?
Acts 14:10-11 So, Paul shouted, “Stand up on your feet!'' The man jumped up and began walking around. And when the crowds saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in Lycaonian, “The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!”
No not quite k4c,
Heb 2.7
” You have MADE him for a little while lower than the angels” does not mean when he was begotten he was lower than the angels.
It must be taken alongside Phil 2.5-6 where it says“he emptied himself taking the form of a bondservant, and being MADE in the likeness of men”
That making was his partaking of flesh and becoming man. He clearly had life in himself before that time or there would be no mention of any change.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 12 2005,19:30) Do you believe Jesus preexisted? If so, how?[/quote]
Hi k4c,
What do you mean?
Do you mean that existence only begins at physical birth?If so you say God does not exist.
I don't think my question was too hard. Maybe if I ask it slower.Do you believe Jesus preexisted?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,00:40) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,00:26) Quote (Bastian @ Dec. 12 2005,20:55) Hi Nick and All, In Daniel Michael is one of the chief princes. That means that there are others like him, he is not unique. He is the prince over Israel that is what sets him apart. He contended with the devil over the body of Moses. I find it odd when Michael became a flesh being made a little lower then the angels he commanded demons, he had power over them, but not when he was their equal as a spirit being, interesting.
Be well, B.
That word (one) can also be (first). If interpreted in light of Scripture the word would be (first) as in the beginning of God's creation.Revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.
Does not the Bible say that Jesus was made a little lower than angels and yet He still commands demons. How can this be so? I'll tell you how, because anointed Him to do so.
Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; how he went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
Even the Apostles themselves casted out demons, healed the sick and raised the dead just as Jesus did. The miracles the Apostles did were so powerful that it caused the people of their day to say, 'The gods have come down to us in human form'. Does this sound familiar?
Acts 14:10-11 So, Paul shouted, “Stand up on your feet!'' The man jumped up and began walking around. And when the crowds saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in Lycaonian, “The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!”
No not quite k4c,
Heb 2.7
” You have MADE him for a little while lower than the angels” does not mean when he was begotten he was lower than the angels.
It must be taken alongside Phil 2.5-6 where it says“he emptied himself taking the form of a bondservant, and being MADE in the likeness of men”
That making was his partaking of flesh and becoming man. He clearly had life in himself before that time or there would be no mention of any change.
Jesus has life in Himself now because His Father gave this power to Him.John 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Regarding Philippians, Jesus is the image of God, not eqaul to God but rather His image. As He states, to equal with God is not a thing that can be had. Jesus is the image of God. God's only begotten Son. Jesus knowing this He did not exalt Himself as God like the first Adam did but rather He submitted Himself to His Father's will in that He became a servant.
Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,00:40) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,00:26) Quote (Bastian @ Dec. 12 2005,20:55) Hi Nick and All, In Daniel Michael is one of the chief princes. That means that there are others like him, he is not unique. He is the prince over Israel that is what sets him apart. He contended with the devil over the body of Moses. I find it odd when Michael became a flesh being made a little lower then the angels he commanded demons, he had power over them, but not when he was their equal as a spirit being, interesting.
Be well, B.
That word (one) can also be (first). If interpreted in light of Scripture the word would be (first) as in the beginning of God's creation.Revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.
Does not the Bible say that Jesus was made a little lower than angels and yet He still commands demons. How can this be so? I'll tell you how, because anointed Him to do so.
Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; how he went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
Even the Apostles themselves casted out demons, healed the sick and raised the dead just as Jesus did. The miracles the Apostles did were so powerful that it caused the people of their day to say, 'The gods have come down to us in human form'. Does this sound familiar?
Acts 14:10-11 So, Paul shouted, “Stand up on your feet!'' The man jumped up and began walking around. And when the crowds saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in Lycaonian, “The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!”
No not quite k4c,
Heb 2.7
” You have MADE him for a little while lower than the angels” does not mean when he was begotten he was lower than the angels.
It must be taken alongside Phil 2.5-6 where it says“he emptied himself taking the form of a bondservant, and being MADE in the likeness of men”
That making was his partaking of flesh and becoming man. He clearly had life in himself before that time or there would be no mention of any change.
Michael was made a little lower then angels for the suffering of death.Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
In Michael lowering Himself taking on sinful flesh He was becoming one of us.
Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.
Remember, God sent His Son from heaven to save mankind. Michael is God's Son and the Angel of God's presence or God's chief representative.
Isaiah 63:9 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them and carried them all the days of old.
Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,00:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,00:40) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,00:26) Quote (Bastian @ Dec. 12 2005,20:55) Hi Nick and All, In Daniel Michael is one of the chief princes. That means that there are others like him, he is not unique. He is the prince over Israel that is what sets him apart. He contended with the devil over the body of Moses. I find it odd when Michael became a flesh being made a little lower then the angels he commanded demons, he had power over them, but not when he was their equal as a spirit being, interesting.
Be well, B.
That word (one) can also be (first). If interpreted in light of Scripture the word would be (first) as in the beginning of God's creation.Revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.
Does not the Bible say that Jesus was made a little lower than angels and yet He still commands demons. How can this be so? I'll tell you how, because anointed Him to do so.
Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; how he went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
Even the Apostles themselves casted out demons, healed the sick and raised the dead just as Jesus did. The miracles the Apostles did were so powerful that it caused the people of their day to say, 'The gods have come down to us in human form'. Does this sound familiar?
Acts 14:10-11 So, Paul shouted, “Stand up on your feet!'' The man jumped up and began walking around. And when the crowds saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in Lycaonian, “The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!”
No not quite k4c,
Heb 2.7
” You have MADE him for a little while lower than the angels” does not mean when he was begotten he was lower than the angels.
It must be taken alongside Phil 2.5-6 where it says“he emptied himself taking the form of a bondservant, and being MADE in the likeness of men”
That making was his partaking of flesh and becoming man. He clearly had life in himself before that time or there would be no mention of any change.
Jesus has life in Himself now because His Father gave this power to Him.John 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Regarding Philippians, Jesus is the image of God, not eqaul to God but rather His image. As He states, to equal with God is not a thing that can be had. Jesus is the image of God. God's only begotten Son. Jesus knowing this He did not exalt Himself as God like the first Adam did but rather He submitted Himself to His Father's will in that He became a servant.
Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.
Hi k4c,
So as a man in what way is Jesus an image of his Father? We are made in the image of God but he is the exact image.Is there anything in his appearance or personal power that resembles God? Not according to Isaiah, in fact the opposite.
Is 53.2f
” For he grew up before Him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of parched ground; he has no stately form or majesty that we should look upon him, nor appearance that we should be attracted to him. He was despised and forsaken of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and like one from whom men hide their face. He was despised and we didi not esteem him”He had his own glory seen only by spiritual eyes and eyes of faith. That glorious vessel was filled too with the greatest manifestation and power of God.
Jn 1.14
” and the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth”Michael was an angel so could not be made lower than himself. God often uses his servant angels to achieve His will.But He sent his beloved only begotten Son to us.
By the way where does scripture say Michael is that only begotten son or God's chief representative or the Angel of His presence. Sooner or later if you wish to teach anything in a biblical forum you had best find some better scriptural evidence.
Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,19:31) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,19:16) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,14:04) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,14:51) K4C,
I'm still waiting for my scripture that says Jesus is Michael. I hope you're not waiting for a new bible translation to come out with the verse in it (joke).
Do you believe Jesus preexisted?If so, how?
I'm still waiting for my scripture. If what you believe is biblical why are you trying to ask me questions? Please give me the scripture and the debate is over or maybe there is no scripture, and so we have to speculate until we can rationalize that Jesus was Michael. John 1:1 and 1:14 tell us how Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. See how easy that was. No speculation, I'm not answering your question with a question, I'm just giving you the scripture.
I have given several dozen of Scriptures throughout this forum. I'll have to go step by step so it will be easier to grasp.Do you believe Jesus preexisted?
I answered this already with yes, based on John 1:1 and 1:14. They tell us how Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. See how easy that was. No speculation, I'm not answering your question with a question, I'm just giving you the scripture. Also Phil.2:5-8. You explaining stuff to me tells me that you started with a pre-conceived idea, and then tried to prove it was right, but you cannot simply give me the scriptures, because they will not agree with you without manipulation.Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 13 2005,02:34) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,19:31) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,19:16) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,14:04) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,14:51) K4C,
I'm still waiting for my scripture that says Jesus is Michael. I hope you're not waiting for a new bible translation to come out with the verse in it (joke).
Do you believe Jesus preexisted?If so, how?
I'm still waiting for my scripture. If what you believe is biblical why are you trying to ask me questions? Please give me the scripture and the debate is over or maybe there is no scripture, and so we have to speculate until we can rationalize that Jesus was Michael. John 1:1 and 1:14 tell us how Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. See how easy that was. No speculation, I'm not answering your question with a question, I'm just giving you the scripture.
I have given several dozen of Scriptures throughout this forum. I'll have to go step by step so it will be easier to grasp.Do you believe Jesus preexisted?
I answered this already with yes, based on John 1:1 and 1:14. They tell us how Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. See how easy that was. No speculation, I'm not answering your question with a question, I'm just giving you the scripture. Also Phil.2:5-8. You explaining stuff to me tells me that you started with a pre-conceived idea, and then tried to prove it was right, but you cannot simply give me the scriptures, because they will not agree with you without manipulation.
You have been taught that the (word) John 1:1 is referring to Jesus. The word (word) in John 1:1 is the word (logos). This word (logos) has to do with (will, thought, words) and is referring to YAHWEH's (thoughts, will, words).I totally agree that the word became flesh in that Jesus was obedient to the (word) in expressing or living out the will or word of God. When we see Jesus we see the Father because Jesus was obedient in expressing the Father name or character through obeying the Father's word. We can see the same thing in us. When we obey the words of Jesus people will see Jesus when they see us.
One very important factor people leave out in teaching or believing Jesus is totally the word in flesh making Him co-eternal and co-equal with YAHWEH and that is, Jesus had His own (will, thoughts and words) along with His Father's. What made Jesus the perfect sacrifice is that He continued in odedience to His Father's will even unto death.
Hebrews 5:8-9 Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,.
Philippians 2:8-9 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name.
Michael, the archangel the sinless Son of God came down from heaven and took on sinful flesh. He was truly tempted to live His own life as a man the way He wanted. He was tempted in all areas as we are to resist the will of God and do His own thing but rather He humbled Himself in obedience even unto death vs being proud and rebellious like us.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,02:06) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,00:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,00:40) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,00:26) Quote (Bastian @ Dec. 12 2005,20:55) Hi Nick and All, In Daniel Michael is one of the chief princes. That means that there are others like him, he is not unique. He is the prince over Israel that is what sets him apart. He contended with the devil over the body of Moses. I find it odd when Michael became a flesh being made a little lower then the angels he commanded demons, he had power over them, but not when he was their equal as a spirit being, interesting.
Be well, B.
That word (one) can also be (first). If interpreted in light of Scripture the word would be (first) as in the beginning of God's creation.Revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.
Does not the Bible say that Jesus was made a little lower than angels and yet He still commands demons. How can this be so? I'll tell you how, because anointed Him to do so.
Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; how he went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
Even the Apostles themselves casted out demons, healed the sick and raised the dead just as Jesus did. The miracles the Apostles did were so powerful that it caused the people of their day to say, 'The gods have come down to us in human form'. Does this sound familiar?
Acts 14:10-11 So, Paul shouted, “Stand up on your feet!'' The man jumped up and began walking around. And when the crowds saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in Lycaonian, “The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!”
No not quite k4c,
Heb 2.7
” You have MADE him for a little while lower than the angels” does not mean when he was begotten he was lower than the angels.
It must be taken alongside Phil 2.5-6 where it says“he emptied himself taking the form of a bondservant, and being MADE in the likeness of men”
That making was his partaking of flesh and becoming man. He clearly had life in himself before that time or there would be no mention of any change.
Jesus has life in Himself now because His Father gave this power to Him.John 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Regarding Philippians, Jesus is the image of God, not eqaul to God but rather His image. As He states, to equal with God is not a thing that can be had. Jesus is the image of God. God's only begotten Son. Jesus knowing this He did not exalt Himself as God like the first Adam did but rather He submitted Himself to His Father's will in that He became a servant.
Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.
Hi k4c,
So as a man in what way is Jesus an image of his Father? We are made in the image of God but he is the exact image.Is there anything in his appearance or personal power that resembles God? Not according to Isaiah, in fact the opposite.
Is 53.2f
” For he grew up before Him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of parched ground; he has no stately form or majesty that we should look upon him, nor appearance that we should be attracted to him. He was despised and forsaken of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and like one from whom men hide their face. He was despised and we didi not esteem him”He had his own glory seen only by spiritual eyes and eyes of faith. That glorious vessel was filled too with the greatest manifestation and power of God.
Jn 1.14
” and the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth”Michael was an angel so could not be made lower than himself. God often uses his servant angels to achieve His will.But He sent his beloved only begotten Son to us.
By the way where does scripture say Michael is that only begotten son or God's chief representative or the Angel of His presence. Sooner or later if you wish to teach anything in a biblical forum you had best find some better scriptural evidence.
An image is NEVER the true thing but rather it's the image of the true thing. Jesus was the expressed image of His Father in that He was obedient in expressing His Father's name or character to us. When we see Jesus we see the Father because Jesus was obedient in expressing the Father's name. We see the same thing in us, when we obey the words of Jesus people will see Jesus when they see us. Remember, in the same way Jesus was sent, He sends us. Jesus was the ambassador of His Father in the same way we will be ambssadors for Jesus.2 Corinthians 5:20 Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.
John 20:21 Then Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.''
Hi k4c,
So the Word or Logos, the thoughts and words and will of God, were WITH God.You say then that Jesus had his own thoughts and words and will as well as the Father still having His own thoughts and words and will.
Does that not sound a little strange to you?
Does God still have His own thoughts and words and will that scripture said were with Him and became flesh as the Word?
This is getting very confusing, and far from revelation.
So Michael was like to us in all ways except sin…and of course that we were never angels.
And of course you say it was the thoughts and words and will of God that came in the flesh, or did you not say it was an angel?
Are all angels the thoughts and words and will of God or only Michael?
Can you show us where this is all written?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,11:13) Hi k4c,
So the Word or Logos, the thoughts and words and will of God, were WITH God.You say then that Jesus had his own thoughts and words and will as well as the Father still having His own thoughts and words and will.
Does that not sound a little strange to you?
Does God still have His own thoughts and words and will that scripture said were with Him and became flesh as the Word?
This is getting very confusing, and far from revelation.
So Michael was like to us in all ways except sin…and of course that we were never angels.
And of course you say it was the thoughts and words and will of God that came in the flesh, or did you not say it was an angel?
Are all angels the thoughts and words and will of God or only Michael?
Can you show us where this is all written?
These are very basic truths of the Bible.Does not the Spirit bare witness with our spirit that we are God's children.
When a person receives the Spirit there is now two spirits within the person. This is when the real battle begins for the believer.
The Spirit of God wars against our spirit or sinful nature.
Angels as well as man have a free will to worship and express the image of our Creator in how we live. But as you read the Bible you will find not all angels as well as man are obedient to the purpose for which we were created.
God is Spirit and unseen. God manifests Himself by way of creation and by sharing Himself with His created beings. This is what is meant by being anointed.
Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,04:53) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 13 2005,02:34) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,19:31) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,19:16) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,14:04) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,14:51) K4C,
I'm still waiting for my scripture that says Jesus is Michael. I hope you're not waiting for a new bible translation to come out with the verse in it (joke).
Do you believe Jesus preexisted?If so, how?
I'm still waiting for my scripture. If what you believe is biblical why are you trying to ask me questions? Please give me the scripture and the debate is over or maybe there is no scripture, and so we have to speculate until we can rationalize that Jesus was Michael. John 1:1 and 1:14 tell us how Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. See how easy that was. No speculation, I'm not answering your question with a question, I'm just giving you the scripture.
I have given several dozen of Scriptures throughout this forum. I'll have to go step by step so it will be easier to grasp.Do you believe Jesus preexisted?
I answered this already with yes, based on John 1:1 and 1:14. They tell us how Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. See how easy that was. No speculation, I'm not answering your question with a question, I'm just giving you the scripture. Also Phil.2:5-8. You explaining stuff to me tells me that you started with a pre-conceived idea, and then tried to prove it was right, but you cannot simply give me the scriptures, because they will not agree with you without manipulation.
You have been taught that the (word) John 1:1 is referring to Jesus. The word (word) in John 1:1 is the word (logos). This word (logos) has to do with (will, thought, words) and is referring to YAHWEH's (thoughts, will, words).I totally agree that the word became flesh in that Jesus was obedient to the (word) in expressing or living out the will or word of God. When we see Jesus we see the Father because Jesus was obedient in expressing the Father name or character through obeying the Father's word. We can see the same thing in us. When we obey the words of Jesus people will see Jesus when they see us.
One very important factor people leave out in teaching or believing Jesus is totally the word in flesh making Him co-eternal and co-equal with YAHWEH and that is, Jesus had His own (will, thoughts and words) along with His Father's. What made Jesus the perfect sacrifice is that He continued in odedience to His Father's will even unto death.
Hebrews 5:8-9 Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,.
Philippians 2:8-9 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name.
Michael, the archangel the sinless Son of God came down from heaven and took on sinful flesh. He was truly tempted to live His own life as a man the way He wanted. He was tempted in all areas as we are to resist the will of God and do His own thing but rather He humbled Himself in obedience even unto death vs being proud and rebellious like us.
It's not what I have been taught, it is what the Bible says. I did not say “that the Word was refering to Jesus”. The Word is refering to the Word, and the Word was the form of God in which Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. In John 1:3 the Bible says that all things were created by the Word, Col. 1:13-18 reads,” He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.”. Now are you going to tell me that the Word,Jesus, and Michael created all things. That is erroneous. Your belief system is also erroneous since you have not produced my scripture that I have asked for. You have proven to me that your conclusion is based on “vain speculation”, and it is found wanting. Every question you have asked me I have given you what the Bible says. Every question I have asked you, you have either answered it with another question or ignored it.Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,04:53) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 13 2005,02:34) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,19:31) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,19:16) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,14:04) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,14:51) K4C,
I'm still waiting for my scripture that says Jesus is Michael. I hope you're not waiting for a new bible translation to come out with the verse in it (joke).
Do you believe Jesus preexisted?If so, how?
I'm still waiting for my scripture. If what you believe is biblical why are you trying to ask me questions? Please give me the scripture and the debate is over or maybe there is no scripture, and so we have to speculate until we can rationalize that Jesus was Michael. John 1:1 and 1:14 tell us how Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. See how easy that was. No speculation, I'm not answering your question with a question, I'm just giving you the scripture.
I have given several dozen of Scriptures throughout this forum. I'll have to go step by step so it will be easier to grasp.Do you believe Jesus preexisted?
I answered this already with yes, based on John 1:1 and 1:14. They tell us how Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. See how easy that was. No speculation, I'm not answering your question with a question, I'm just giving you the scripture. Also Phil.2:5-8. You explaining stuff to me tells me that you started with a pre-conceived idea, and then tried to prove it was right, but you cannot simply give me the scriptures, because they will not agree with you without manipulation.
You have been taught that the (word) John 1:1 is referring to Jesus. The word (word) in John 1:1 is the word (logos). This word (logos) has to do with (will, thought, words) and is referring to YAHWEH's (thoughts, will, words).I totally agree that the word became flesh in that Jesus was obedient to the (word) in expressing or living out the will or word of God. When we see Jesus we see the Father because Jesus was obedient in expressing the Father name or character through obeying the Father's word. We can see the same thing in us. When we obey the words of Jesus people will see Jesus when they see us.
One very important factor people leave out in teaching or believing Jesus is totally the word in flesh making Him co-eternal and co-equal with YAHWEH and that is, Jesus had His own (will, thoughts and words) along with His Father's. What made Jesus the perfect sacrifice is that He continued in odedience to His Father's will even unto death.
Hebrews 5:8-9 Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,.
Philippians 2:8-9 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name.
Michael, the archangel the sinless Son of God came down from heaven and took on sinful flesh. He was truly tempted to live His own life as a man the way He wanted. He was tempted in all areas as we are to resist the will of God and do His own thing but rather He humbled Himself in obedience even unto death vs being proud and rebellious like us.
It's not what I have been taught, it is what the Bible says. I did not say “that the Word was refering to Jesus”. The Word is refering to the Word, and the Word was the form of God in which Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. In John 1:3 the Bible says that all things were created by the Word, Col. 1:13-18 reads,” He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.”. Now are you going to tell me that the Word,Jesus, and Michael created all things. That is erroneous. Your belief system is also erroneous since you have not produced my scripture that I have asked for. You have proven to me that your conclusion is based on “vain speculation”, and it is found wanting. Every question you have asked me I have given you what the Bible says. Every question I have asked you, you have either answered it with another question or ignored it.Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 13 2005,16:42) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,04:53) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 13 2005,02:34) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,19:31) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,19:16) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,14:04) Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 12 2005,14:51) K4C,
I'm still waiting for my scripture that says Jesus is Michael. I hope you're not waiting for a new bible translation to come out with the verse in it (joke).
Do you believe Jesus preexisted?If so, how?
I'm still waiting for my scripture. If what you believe is biblical why are you trying to ask me questions? Please give me the scripture and the debate is over or maybe there is no scripture, and so we have to speculate until we can rationalize that Jesus was Michael. John 1:1 and 1:14 tell us how Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. See how easy that was. No speculation, I'm not answering your question with a question, I'm just giving you the scripture.
I have given several dozen of Scriptures throughout this forum. I'll have to go step by step so it will be easier to grasp.Do you believe Jesus preexisted?
I answered this already with yes, based on John 1:1 and 1:14. They tell us how Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. See how easy that was. No speculation, I'm not answering your question with a question, I'm just giving you the scripture. Also Phil.2:5-8. You explaining stuff to me tells me that you started with a pre-conceived idea, and then tried to prove it was right, but you cannot simply give me the scriptures, because they will not agree with you without manipulation.
You have been taught that the (word) John 1:1 is referring to Jesus. The word (word) in John 1:1 is the word (logos). This word (logos) has to do with (will, thought, words) and is referring to YAHWEH's (thoughts, will, words).I totally agree that the word became flesh in that Jesus was obedient to the (word) in expressing or living out the will or word of God. When we see Jesus we see the Father because Jesus was obedient in expressing the Father name or character through obeying the Father's word. We can see the same thing in us. When we obey the words of Jesus people will see Jesus when they see us.
One very important factor people leave out in teaching or believing Jesus is totally the word in flesh making Him co-eternal and co-equal with YAHWEH and that is, Jesus had His own (will, thoughts and words) along with His Father's. What made Jesus the perfect sacrifice is that He continued in odedience to His Father's will even unto death.
Hebrews 5:8-9 Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,.
Philippians 2:8-9 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name.
Michael, the archangel the sinless Son of God came down from heaven and took on sinful flesh. He was truly tempted to live His own life as a man the way He wanted. He was tempted in all areas as we are to resist the will of God and do His own thing but rather He humbled Himself in obedience even unto death vs being proud and rebellious like us.
It's not what I have been taught, it is what the Bible says. I did not say “that the Word was refering to Jesus”. The Word is refering to the Word, and the Word was the form of God in which Jesus existed before coming in the flesh. In John 1:3 the Bible says that all things were created by the Word, Col. 1:13-18 reads,” He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.”. Now are you going to tell me that the Word,Jesus, and Michael created all things. That is erroneous. Your belief system is also erroneous since you have not produced my scripture that I have asked for. You have proven to me that your conclusion is based on “vain speculation”, and it is found wanting. Every question you have asked me I have given you what the Bible says. Every question I have asked you, you have either answered it with another question or ignored it.
Understanding Michael and Jesus is not something that will come with just one answered question. It takes studying and allowing the Father to reveal that fact that (Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God).One of the confusions regarding Jesus is that people are taught that Jesus created the heaven and earth we now live in. This is not a biblically sound statement. YAHWEH created the heaven and earth we now live in but through Jesus YAHWEH is creating a new and heaven and earth wherein dwells righteousness. This new heaven and earth will be called the kingdom of God. He also created a new man through His Son.
If you notice in Colossians how the first thing that is mentioned is this kingdom. This kingdom is what God created through Jesus. It's not saying Jesus created THE heaven and THE earth. It says through Jesus these things were created IN heaven and ON earth. It's a governmental kingdom dealing with principalities and powers. Jesus is before all things not in the sense of time but rather superiority as being head of the church. Jesus is the firstborn from the dead pertaining to this coming kingdom.
There is much to understand regarding Michael and Jesus so to just give you one verse that covers everything would be hard to do. I'm sure it took years for you build the faith you have now so how do you expect me to change what you believe in one verse.
The bottom line is that God sent His Son from heaven to take on sinful flesh. The Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son. So who is this Son that YAHWEH sent from heaven?
Do you know His name?
Prov
erbs 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know?Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,14:41) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,11:13) Hi k4c,
So the Word or Logos, the thoughts and words and will of God, were WITH God.You say then that Jesus had his own thoughts and words and will as well as the Father still having His own thoughts and words and will.
Does that not sound a little strange to you?
Does God still have His own thoughts and words and will that scripture said were with Him and became flesh as the Word?
This is getting very confusing, and far from revelation.
So Michael was like to us in all ways except sin…and of course that we were never angels.
And of course you say it was the thoughts and words and will of God that came in the flesh, or did you not say it was an angel?
Are all angels the thoughts and words and will of God or only Michael?
Can you show us where this is all written?
These are very basic truths of the Bible.Does not the Spirit bare witness with our spirit that we are God's children.
When a person receives the Spirit there is now two spirits within the person. This is when the real battle begins for the believer.
The Spirit of God wars against our spirit or sinful nature.
Angels as well as man have a free will to worship and express the image of our Creator in how we live. But as you read the Bible you will find not all angels as well as man are obedient to the purpose for which we were created.
God is Spirit and unseen. God manifests Himself by way of creation and by sharing Himself with His created beings. This is what is meant by being anointed.
Hi k4c,
Great. These are basic bible truths, you say, and so soon you will show us them in the bible.God is spirit.The Word IS the thoughts and words and will of God and is separate from God. However God still HAS thoughts and words and will and so DOES the thoughts and words and will OF the thoughts and words and will of God. Is this your gospel?
You contrast men with angels. Scripture says Jesus was a man. But you say he was also an angel?
God asked some rhetorical questions which require no answer in Hebrews-for example.
Heb 1.13
” But to which of the ANGELS has He ever said
'Sit at My right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet'
Are they not ALL ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?”But I can see your hand going up in the audience to say
“I know. Michael”Look k4c I know you are sincere and trying honestly to find the truth and I do not wish to insult your intellect. I don't know how to reach out to you but I hope by reflecting what you are saying back to you you can get a better balanced perspective so we can work together to find the truth.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,19:21) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 13 2005,14:41) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2005,11:13) Hi k4c,
So the Word or Logos, the thoughts and words and will of God, were WITH God.You say then that Jesus had his own thoughts and words and will as well as the Father still having His own thoughts and words and will.
Does that not sound a little strange to you?
Does God still have His own thoughts and words and will that scripture said were with Him and became flesh as the Word?
This is getting very confusing, and far from revelation.
So Michael was like to us in all ways except sin…and of course that we were never angels.
And of course you say it was the thoughts and words and will of God that came in the flesh, or did you not say it was an angel?
Are all angels the thoughts and words and will of God or only Michael?
Can you show us where this is all written?
These are very basic truths of the Bible.Does not the Spirit bare witness with our spirit that we are God's children.
When a person receives the Spirit there is now two spirits within the person. This is when the real battle begins for the believer.
The Spirit of God wars against our spirit or sinful nature.
Angels as well as man have a free will to worship and express the image of our Creator in how we live. But as you read the Bible you will find not all angels as well as man are obedient to the purpose for which we were created.
God is Spirit and unseen. God manifests Himself by way of creation and by sharing Himself with His created beings. This is what is meant by being anointed.
Hi k4c,
Great. These are basic bible truths, you say, and so soon you will show us them in the bible.God is spirit.The Word IS the thoughts and words and will of God and is separate from God. However God still HAS thoughts and words and will and so DOES the thoughts and words and will OF the thoughts and words and will of God. Is this your gospel?
You contrast men with angels. Scripture says Jesus was a man. But you say he was also an angel?
God asked some rhetorical questions which require no answer in Hebrews-for example.
Heb 1.13
” But to which of the ANGELS has He ever said
'Sit at My right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet'
Are they not ALL ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?”But I can see your hand going up in the audience to say
“I know. Michael”Look k4c I know you are sincere and trying honestly to find the truth and I do not wish to insult your intellect. I don't know how to reach out to you but I hope by reflecting what you are saying back to you you can get a better balanced perspective so we can work together to find the truth.
I'm prabably wasting my time sharing these things.God sent His Son from heaven to take on sinful flesh. I think you believe this.
Who was His Son?
According to the Scriptures, it's Michael.
Hebrews 1:13 is not a rhetorical question.
God has never said to an angel, sit at my right hand untill I make your enemises your footstool, but He also didn't say this to just any man.
God was making a new man in Jesus from Michael. When Jesus was begotten (raised from the dead) He was not an angel but rather He was a flesh and blood man. It was at Jesus' resurrection when He was seated at the right hand of the Father. It was at this time when the Father said this to His Son.
Hebrews10:12-13 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, then to wait until his enemies should be made a stool for his feet.
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