Who is this Jesus?

[Sultan]

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 09 2005,05:58)

Quote (SearchingForTheTruth @ April 13 2003,01:34) Hello, T8 I enjoy the discussion group and for bringing some questions into light concerning the trinity. Ramblinrose, I also appreciate your posts for you have also done a very thorough study. I have to say that I am in agreement that there is one GOD, the father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. I do have some questions concerning Jesus and I would like to have some feedback or a discussion concerning the following questions: Was Christ born before creation? Was Christ Eternal? Was Jesus Divine or Human? or Both? I ask these questions because there happens to be 2 conflitcing thoughts about Jesus outside of the Trinity and Oneness groups. Thought 1. Jesus was born/begotton before creation and came to earth in flesh as a man. (Was he only a man?, Did he have divine attributes? Was his only divinity the father inside of him or did he possess some of his own? If you are the same nature of something IE GOD, would you not have some divine attributes? A human is born as a human and carries human attributes.) Thought 2. Jesus's only birth was that of Mary and thus he was fully human, the only divinity within him was the father working thru him. The father is the father in the literal sense using his spirit to impregnate Mary. This is where I am at in crossroads to when Jesus came into being and what attributes does Jesus possess. An open discussion on this would be helpful as it will trigger some thoughts in search of the truth. GOD BLESS I don't have too much time today to get into it all but I give you some insight that will help you understand the Jesus the Christ. Was Christ born before creation? Jesus was Michael (God's Son) before the world was. He was a created being, a Son of God who had a beginnig just like all of God's creation. What leads us into confusion is our lack of understanding Jesus' two births. Jesus' first birth was through Mary as He took on sinful flesh. He also had a second birth through His resurrection. This is where you find the verse that says, “Today I have begotten you”. When it speak of Jesus being the first born of all creation it is not referring to the Genises creation but rather the new creation referring to the coming kingdom and the new man. As you study your bible look at the verses with these thoughts in mind, then the whole bible and the true Gospel message will open up for you. Was Christ Eternal? Jesus is not eternal. He had a beginning but now He has no end. The Spirit of God that anointed Jesus is eternal but Jesus is the Christ. The word (christ) means (anointed). Was Jesus Divine or Human? or Both? Jesus was both divine and human in that He was anionted by the Father and had a divine nature in the same way you and I can be partakers of that same divine nature. 2 Peter 1:2-4 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. I hope this helps… There is much more we can look at but I think with these thoughts in mind as you study you will begin to understand God's big picture. May the Lord continue to work in our lives.

Jesus was Michael. That is ridiculous. You take one verse out of Daniel and build a whole doctrine around it, because someone told you it was true. Please mean read the Bible, and leave those little books alone.
The scripture says without the Word nothing was made that was made. If this is true then to say the Word was created totally contradicts John 1:3. Unless the Word made itself.

[k4c]

Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 09 2005,13:33)

Jesus was Michael. That is ridiculous. You take one verse out of Daniel and build a whole doctrine around it, because someone told you it was true. Please mean read the Bible, and leave those little books alone. The scripture says without the Word nothing was made that was made. If this is true then to say the Word was created totally contradicts John 1:3. Unless the Word made itself.

Jesus was Michael. That is ridiculous.

I use to think the same way until I studied it out for myself. I just put a 50 page study together with dozens of verses that reveal Michael and Jesus as being one in the same. Once you allow the Spirit to reveal this and let Bible speak for itself you will begin to see this hidden truth.

Ephesians 3:4-5 As you read this, you will be able to grasp my understanding of the secret of Christ. People of other generations were not told this, but now it has been revealed to God's holy apostles and prophets by Spirit:

[kenrch]

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 10 2005,20:47)

Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 09 2005,13:33) Jesus was Michael. That is ridiculous. You take one verse out of Daniel and build a whole doctrine around it, because someone told you it was true. Please mean read the Bible, and leave those little books alone. The scripture says without the Word nothing was made that was made. If this is true then to say the Word was created totally contradicts John 1:3. Unless the Word made itself. Jesus was Michael. That is ridiculous. I use to think the same way until I studied it out for myself. I just put a 50 page study together with dozens of verses that reveal Michael and Jesus as being one in the same. Once you allow the Spirit to reveal this and let Bible speak for itself you will begin to see this hidden truth. Ephesians 3:4-5 As you read this, you will be able to grasp my understanding of the secret of Christ. People of other generations were not told this, but now it has been revealed to God's holy apostles and prophets by Spirit:

Hi K4c,

I'm wide opened to the Word. Please give scripture. What advantage do we have if Michael is Jesus. What does that change.
For me other than more truth I don't see how that changes anything. If Michael were Jesus then the Word was named Michael. Michael became flesh and was crucified for our sins. Our debt would still have been paid, our sins forgiven.

All I see is an organization sidetracking paople so they won't learn the truth, you cannot be in the family of God unless you are born again. Salvation should be first, then if NEED be a discussion on Michael. It's the same old trick of satan, give a little truth, then flood them with lies. Ok Michael is Jesus, so now what?

I want is the truth. It's the truth that makes you free.

[Ramblinrose]

The following article may be helpful for this topic.

IS JESUS AN ARCHANGEL?

Blessings

[k4c]

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 10 2005,04:41)

Hi K4c, I'm wide opened to the Word.  Please give scripture.  What advantage do we have if Michael is Jesus.  What does that change. For me other than more truth I don't see how that changes anything.  If Michael were Jesus then the Word was named Michael.  Michael became flesh and was crucified for our sins.  Our debt would still have been paid, our sins forgiven. All I see is an organization sidetracking paople so they won't learn the truth, you cannot be in the family of God unless you are born again.  Salvation should be first, then if NEED be a discussion on Michael.  It's the same old trick of satan, give a little truth, then flood them with lies.  Ok Michael is Jesus, so now what?    I want is the truth.  It's the truth that makes you free.

What advantage do we have if Michael is Jesus.

Statements like this break the heart of God who gave His firstborn Son to save such a wicked people as ourselves.

John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

That fact that God gave His deeply loved Son reveals the level of love He has for us. It's when we truly come to undertsand this love that God has for us that He is willing to give His very best to save us draws us to Him and casts out all fear.

1 John 4:10 Real love (God's love for us, not our love for God) is this: God sent His Son to be the way that God takes away our sins.

Do you think God told Abraham, “What difference does it make if it's your only birthed son?”. The fact that Abraham was willing to give his only son revealed something about the character of Abraham towards God that made him the father of our faith. God giving His only birthed Son says something about God's character towards us.

Satan has very successfully distored the Sonship of Jesus and made Him some mystical co-equal, co-eternal being with the one true God. Satan has told us that Jesus could not really fall into sin because He is God so all His temptations really didn't mean much. Satan has told us that Jesus didn't really die because God can't die. Satan could not make Jesus exalt Himself to be God, like he did to the first Adam, but he has taught us to believe Jesus did.

So to say that it makes no difference whether we understand who Jesus really is to His Father is a stumbling block for truly seeking to know Him above what everyone else is telling us. To know the Father and His Son is so important to God that He says eternal life in bound up in the answer.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

God gave His Son so that we might have life through Him. What an expression of love between the Father and His Son working together to save a poor, naked and wretched people as mankind.

[k4c]

Quote (Ramblinrose @ Dec. 10 2005,07:54)

The following article may be helpful for this topic. IS JESUS AN ARCHANGEL? Blessings

Hi Ramblinrose,

I'm friends with Juan and had once believe much of what he believes but God would not let me stay in my belief. He has poked and pried me into looking more closely at my faith in what I was believing. The biggest stumbling block to over come is that Jesus can't be Michael because Michael is a created being and Jesus is not a created being but rather He is the only birthed Son.

Everything in the earth was created by God with the ability to reproduce according to its own kind. Adam (mankind) was created but everyone after Adam came through birth by Adam and Eve. All the angels are created beings including Michael, God's chief messenger.

Michael, who is a son of God put on sinful flesh through His birth through Mary.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law.

Michael's birth through Mary caused Michael to become a mortal flesh and blood man named, Jesus.

Matthew 1:21 “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.''

In this, God was making a new man, a new creation through Jesus. The man Jesus was exalted to a place of worship and Kingship through His second birth in His resurrection.

Acts 13:33-34 “God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: `You are My Son, today I have begotten You.' “And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: `I will give you the sure mercies of David.'

God was not saying this to an angel, He was saying this to Jesus, the new man, the new creation.

Jesus has now received a name above all names through His inheritence. It's very imported to understand that it was through Jesus' inheritence that He is exalted and called to be worshiped.

Hebrews 1:4 Having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Now when Jesus comes into the world He is coming as the exalted Son of God.

Hebrews 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.''

Notice how it says, 'Again God brings His firstborn into the world' It's the newly exalted Jesus that we are told to worship Him.

Michael gave up the glory He had with His Father as an immortal angel, the Angel of God presence.

Isaiah 63:9 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them and carried them all the days of old.

But now, after all His work on this earth He is now back with His Father in glory.

John 17:5 “And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

There is so much more we can cover here but I'll stop for now.

May the Lord continue to bless us all with His truth.

[kenrch]

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 11 2005,05:58)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 10 2005,04:41) Hi K4c, I'm wide opened to the Word.  Please give scripture.  What advantage do we have if Michael is Jesus.  What does that change. For me other than more truth I don't see how that changes anything.  If Michael were Jesus then the Word was named Michael.  Michael became flesh and was crucified for our sins.  Our debt would still have been paid, our sins forgiven. All I see is an organization sidetracking paople so they won't learn the truth, you cannot be in the family of God unless you are born again.  Salvation should be first, then if NEED be a discussion on Michael.  It's the same old trick of satan, give a little truth, then flood them with lies.  Ok Michael is Jesus, so now what?    I want is the truth.  It's the truth that makes you free. What advantage do we have if Michael is Jesus. Statements like this break the heart of God who gave His firstborn Son to save such a wicked people as ourselves. John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. That fact that God gave His deeply loved Son reveals the level of love He has for us. It's when we truly come to undertsand this love that God has for us that He is willing to give His very best to save us draws us to Him and casts out all fear. 1 John 4:10 Real love (God's love for us, not our love for God) is this: God sent His Son to be the way that God takes away our sins. Do you think God told Abraham, “What difference does it make if it's your only birthed son?”. The fact that Abraham was willing to give his only son revealed something about the character of Abraham towards God that made him the father of our faith. God giving His only birthed Son says something about God's character towards us. Satan has very successfully distored the Sonship of Jesus and made Him some mystical co-equal, co-eternal being with the one true God. Satan has told us that Jesus could not really fall into sin because He is God so all His temptations really didn't mean much. Satan has told us that Jesus didn't really die because God can't die. Satan could not make Jesus exalt Himself to be God, like he did to the first Adam, but he has taught us to believe Jesus did. So to say that it makes no difference whether we understand who Jesus really is to His Father is a stumbling block for truly seeking to know Him above what everyone else is telling us. To know the Father and His Son is so important to God that He says eternal life in bound up in the answer. John 17:3  “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. God gave His Son so that we might have life through Him. What an expression of love between the Father and His Son working together to save a poor, naked and wretched people as mankind.

k4c,

If your name is Jimmy or JANE IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE you are who you are. If the son of God were Michael it wouldn't matter to me He's still the Son of God who gave Himself for me. I don't like any insinuating remarks that I don't care or love Jesus. The fact is you are in love with a name. I'm in love with the Son of God who saved me.
Even if Jesus' name were Michael (you'll have to scriptural prive that) I would still love Him.

What would it mean to you IF Jesus' name were Michael? Does that change that He died so we could commune with our FATHER. But what it does is preoccupy you away from the truth which matters more than any name. If you have the truth then you would have the true name. That's why I srtive for the truth. Once you have the truth the puzzle fits together much easier than trying to fit the wrong piece in the right place.

[Sultan]

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 10 2005,10:10)

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 11 2005,05:58) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 10 2005,04:41) Hi K4c, I'm wide opened to the Word. Please give scripture. What advantage do we have if Michael is Jesus. What does that change. For me other than more truth I don't see how that changes anything. If Michael were Jesus then the Word was named Michael. Michael became flesh and was crucified for our sins. Our debt would still have been paid, our sins forgiven. All I see is an organization sidetracking paople so they won't learn the truth, you cannot be in the family of God unless you are born again. Salvation should be first, then if NEED be a discussion on Michael. It's the same old trick of satan, give a little truth, then flood them with lies. Ok Michael is Jesus, so now what? I want is the truth. It's the truth that makes you free. What advantage do we have if Michael is Jesus. Statements like this break the heart of God who gave His firstborn Son to save such a wicked people as ourselves. John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. That fact that God gave His deeply loved Son reveals the level of love He has for us. It's when we truly come to undertsand this love that God has for us that He is willing to give His very best to save us draws us to Him and casts out all fear. 1 John 4:10 Real love (God's love for us, not our love for God) is this: God sent His Son to be the way that God takes away our sins. Do you think God told Abraham, “What difference does it make if it's your only birthed son?”. The fact that Abraham was willing to give his only son revealed something about the character of Abraham towards God that made him the father of our faith. God giving His only birthed Son says something about God's character towards us. Satan has very successfully distored the Sonship of Jesus and made Him some mystical co-equal, co-eternal being with the one true God. Satan has told us that Jesus could not really fall into sin because He is God so all His temptations really didn't mean much. Satan has told us that Jesus didn't really die because God can't die. Satan could not make Jesus exalt Himself to be God, like he did to the first Adam, but he has taught us to believe Jesus did. So to say that it makes no difference whether we understand who Jesus really is to His Father is a stumbling block for truly seeking to know Him above what everyone else is telling us. To know the Father and His Son is so important to God that He says eternal life in bound up in the answer. John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. God gave His Son so that we might have life through Him. What an expression of love between the Father and His Son working together to save a poor, naked and wretched people as mankind. k4c, If your name is Jimmy or JANE IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE you are who you are. If the son of God were Michael it wouldn't matter to me He's still the Son of God who gave Himself for me. I don't like any insinuating remarks that I don't care or love Jesus. The fact is you are in love with a name. I'm in love with the Son of God who saved me. Even if Jesus' name were Michael (you'll have to scriptural prive that) I would still love Him. What would it mean to you IF Jesus' name were Michael? Does that change that He died so we could commune with our FATHER. But what it does is preoccupy you away from the truth which matters more than any name. If you have the truth then you would have the true name. That's why I srtive for the truth. Once you have the truth the puzzle fits together much easier than trying to fit the wrong piece in the right place.

The name makes a huge difference. Why did God change Jacob's name to Israel, Why did God change Abram's name to Abraham, Why did Moses ask, “Who shall I say sent me”. Names in the Bible define the very character of those who bear them. When God changed people He changed their names to match their character.
The Bible says, “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”. The Bible also says,”Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
I hope you can see your error, and the importance of names. If you call on the wrong name you cannot be saved.

[k4c]

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 10 2005,15:10)

k4c, If your name is Jimmy or JANE IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE you are who you are. If the son of God were Michael it wouldn't matter to me He's still the Son of God who gave Himself for me.   I don't like any insinuating remarks that I don't care or love Jesus.  The fact  is you are in love with a name.  I'm in love with the Son of God who saved me.   Even if Jesus' name were Michael (you'll have to scriptural prive that) I would still love Him. What would it mean to you IF Jesus' name were Michael? Does that change that He died so we could commune with our FATHER.  But what it does is preoccupy you away from the truth which matters more than any name.  If you have the truth then you would have  the true name.  That's why I srtive for the truth.  Once you have the truth the puzzle fits together much easier than trying to fit the wrong piece in the right place.

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he who comes teaching another Jesus whom we have not taught, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you may well put up with it.

How do you know if you have the right Jesus? We can know we have the right Jesus by studying to know who the right Jesus is.

To say you love the Son of God without truly seeking to know who He is can lead to trouble.

Mark 13:21-23 “Then if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or, `Look, He is there!' do not believe it. “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. “But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

It's our responsibity to study and learn the truth about God and His Son.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

The Jesus of the trinity God is another Jesus. He is a Jesus that was not taught by the Apostles.

Michael was a created being who became flesh and blood through the birth through Mary.

The Jesus of the trinity is the eternally begotten God the Son. This Jesus was formed by pagan Rome back in 325AD long after the Apostles.

It's when we study out the name of Jesus that we can be led to the true Jesus who saves, this is our responsibility and the reason for the Scriptures.

[NickHassan]

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 09 2005,10:58)

Quote (SearchingForTheTruth @ April 13 2003,01:34) Hello, T8 I enjoy the discussion group and for bringing some questions into light concerning the trinity.  Ramblinrose, I also appreciate your posts for you have also done a very thorough study.  I have to say that I am in agreement that there is one GOD, the father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ.  I do have some questions concerning Jesus and I would like to have some feedback or a discussion concerning the following questions: Was Christ born before creation? Was Christ Eternal? Was Jesus Divine or Human? or Both? I ask these questions because there happens to be 2 conflitcing thoughts about Jesus outside of the Trinity and Oneness groups.   Thought 1.  Jesus was born/begotton before creation and came to earth in flesh as a man.  (Was he only a man?, Did he have divine attributes? Was his only divinity the father inside of him or did he possess some of his own? If you are the same nature of something  IE GOD, would you not have some divine attributes? A human is born as a human and carries human attributes.) Thought 2. Jesus's only birth was that of Mary and thus he was fully human, the only divinity within him was the father working thru him. The father is the father in the literal sense using his spirit to impregnate Mary. This is where I am at in crossroads to when Jesus came into being and what attributes does Jesus possess.  An open discussion on this would be helpful as it will trigger some thoughts in search of the truth. GOD BLESS I don't have too much time today to get into it all but I give you some insight that will help you understand the Jesus the Christ. Was Christ born before creation? Jesus was Michael (God's Son) before the world was. He was a created being, a Son of God who had a beginnig just like all of God's creation. What leads us into confusion is our lack of understanding Jesus' two births. Jesus' first birth was through Mary as He took on sinful flesh. He also had a second birth through His resurrection. This is where you find the verse that says, “Today I have begotten you”. When it speak of Jesus being the first born of all creation it is not referring to the Genises creation but rather the new creation referring to the coming kingdom and the new man. As you study your bible look at the verses with these thoughts in mind, then the whole bible and the true Gospel message will open up for you. Was Christ Eternal? Jesus is not eternal. He had a beginning but now He has no end. The Spirit of God that anointed Jesus is eternal but Jesus is the Christ. The word (christ) means (anointed). Was Jesus Divine or Human? or Both? Jesus was both divine and human in that He was anionted by the Father and had a divine nature in the same way you and I can be partakers of that same divine nature. 2 Peter 1:2-4 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. I hope this helps… There is much more we can look at but I think with these thoughts in mind as you study you will begin to understand God's big picture. May the Lord continue to work in our lives.

Hi k4c,
It staggers ma how JWs continue to state with conviction but no evidence that One being the Son of God is another, the angel Michael. Men will fantasise and propound nonsense forever.

[kenrch]

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 11 2005,14:41)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 10 2005,15:10) k4c, If your name is Jimmy or JANE IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE you are who you are. If the son of God were Michael it wouldn't matter to me He's still the Son of God who gave Himself for me.   I don't like any insinuating remarks that I don't care or love Jesus.  The fact  is you are in love with a name.  I'm in love with the Son of God who saved me.   Even if Jesus' name were Michael (you'll have to scriptural prive that) I would still love Him. What would it mean to you IF Jesus' name were Michael? Does that change that He died so we could commune with our FATHER.  But what it does is preoccupy you away from the truth which matters more than any name.  If you have the truth then you would have  the true name.  That's why I srtive for the truth.  Once you have the truth the puzzle fits together much easier than trying to fit the wrong piece in the right place. 2 Corinthians 11:4  For if he who comes teaching another Jesus whom we have not taught, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you may well put up with it. How do you know if you have the right Jesus? We can know we have the right Jesus by studying to know who the right Jesus is. To say you love the Son of God without truly seeking to know who He is can lead to trouble. Mark 13:21-23 “Then if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or, `Look, He is there!' do not believe it. “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. “But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand. It's our responsibity to study and learn the truth about God and His Son. 1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. The Jesus of the trinity God is another Jesus. He is a Jesus that was not taught by the Apostles. Michael was a created being who became flesh and blood through the birth through Mary. The Jesus of the trinity is the eternally begotten God the Son. This Jesus was formed by pagan Rome back in 325AD long after the Apostles. It's when we study out the name of Jesus that we can be led to the true Jesus who saves, this is our responsibility and the reason for the Scriptures.

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he who comes teaching another Jesus whom we have not taught, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you may well put up with it.

You can't see that is exactly what the JWs' are doing, aren't you teaching another Jesus by calling Him Michael.

How do you know if you have the right Jesus? We can know we have the right Jesus by studying to know who the right Jesus is. (this sounds like you got it right out of JWs cartoon book)

Because I'm led by the Spirit (Rom. 8:14). The bible is a spiritual book and can only be discernd by the Spirit (1Cor 2:14). How do you expect a child of God to believe what you say unless you are born of the Spirit?

Mark 13:21-23 “Then if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or, `Look, He is there!' do not believe it. “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. “But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

Doesn't the JWs say Christ has already came and He is in the atmosphere? It would seem that this scripture is talking about the JWs.
Spiriturally, Jesus has never left. Where two or more of His brethern are gathered He is in our midst (Matthew 18:20).
But when that great and terrible day of the Lord comes every eye will see Him (Rev.1:7).

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
And one of them is Charles T. Russell. Your prophet twist, adds to, and hammers scripture until it fits his doctrine.
Michael was a created being who became flesh and blood through the birth through Mary.

Michael was created from the Word all things were created from the Word. Then the Word became flesh and His name was called Jesus.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Where is the name Michael in any scripture pertaining to the son of God, in any translation including the NWT?

You should become saved receive the Holy Spirit, then talk to me. Until then your already dead (luke 9:60).

1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Truly let the dead bury the dead.

[k4c]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 10 2005,21:05)

Hi k4c, It staggers ma how JWs continue to state with conviction but no evidence that One being the Son of God is another, the angel Michael. Men will fantasise and propound nonsense forever.

I'm not a JW…

I believe Michael is Jesus not because someone told me but rather because of hours upon hours of study and prayer. The biggest reason why it took hours upon hours of study is because of all the false trinity concepts the Lord had to untie and remove from my faith and untwist from His word.

Those who believe in a co-eternal, co-equal trinity God do so because they have been led to believe by man that it's true as I once was led to believe it was true.

Orthodocy is not, nor has it ever been, a standard for truth. As a matter of fact, the orthodox religion of Jesus' day murdered the Son of glory.

If the multitudes people want to believe God can be tempted when the Bible says He can't be tempted and if they want to believe God can die when the Bible says He can't die and if they want to believe that Jesus has all knowledge as His Father when Jesus stated plainly that He does not and if they want to believe that there are two co-eternal, co-equal God the Spirit in God when the Bible says there is but one Spirit and if they want to believe that the Father and the Son are equal when the Bible, as well as Jesus Himself, says the Father is greater then Jesus, this is their free will right to do so. But I can tell you from Scripture, they are believing a different Jesus…

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he who comes teaching another Jesus whom we have not taught, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you may well put up with it.

As far as having no evidence to Michael and Jesus being the same, I just put together a 50 page study packed with evidence to this truth. Even with all this, people will still reject the fact that Michael, the sinless Son of God, put on sinful flesh and died to save mankind.

Luke 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'”

The truth of Jesus' Sonship has been successfuly distorted by Satan to the point that people truly have to come to be committed to personal study, putting aside all that they have been taught by man so that they can be led by the Spirit.

In doing this you will lose most of your fellowship with the main line churches. The closer you get to God and the more truth He is able to teach you the further away from the multitudes you will be. Remember, it was the religious people of Jesus' day that hated Him most. If they hated Him they will hate you too.

Matthew 7:14 “Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

This truth still rings clear even to this day…

[kenrch]

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 12 2005,08:19)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 10 2005,21:05) Hi k4c, It staggers ma how JWs continue to state with conviction but no evidence that One being the Son of God is another, the angel Michael. Men will fantasise and propound nonsense forever. I'm not a JW… I believe Michael is Jesus not because someone told me but rather because of hours upon hours of study and prayer. The biggest reason why it took hours upon hours of study is because of all the false trinity concepts the Lord had to untie and remove from my faith and untwist from His word. Those who believe in a co-eternal, co-equal trinity God do so because they have been led to believe by man that it's true as I once was led to believe it was true. Orthodocy is not, nor has it ever been, a standard for truth. As a matter of fact, the orthodox religion of Jesus' day murdered the Son of glory. If the multitudes people want to believe God can be tempted when the Bible says He can't be tempted and if they want to believe God can die when the Bible says He can't die and if they want to believe that Jesus has all knowledge as His Father when Jesus stated plainly that He does not and if they want to believe that there are two co-eternal, co-equal God the Spirit in God when the Bible says there is but one Spirit and if they want to believe that the Father and the Son are equal when the Bible, as well as Jesus Himself, says the Father is greater then Jesus, this is their free will right to do so. But I can tell you from Scripture, they are believing a different Jesus… 2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he who comes teaching another Jesus whom we have not taught, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you may well put up with it. As far as having no evidence to Michael and Jesus being the same, I just put together a 50 page study packed with evidence to this truth. Even with all this, people will still reject the fact that Michael, the sinless Son of God, put on sinful flesh and died to save mankind. Luke 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'” The truth of Jesus' Sonship has been successfuly distorted by Satan to the point that people truly have to come to be committed to personal study, putting aside all that they have been taught by man so that they can be led by the Spirit. In doing this you will lose most of your fellowship with the main line churches. The closer you get to God and the more truth He is able to teach you the further away from the multitudes you will be. Remember, it was the religious people of Jesus' day that hated Him most. If they hated Him they will hate you too. Matthew 7:14 “Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. This truth still rings clear even to this day…

k4c,

I'm ready for the truth e-mail your packet to me so I can study it and pray and go over it again I expect you will answer all my questions I want all the truth I can get. I'll send you my e-mail address.

[kenrch]

Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 11 2005,10:24)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 10 2005,10:10) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 11 2005,05:58) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 10 2005,04:41) Hi K4c, I'm wide opened to the Word.  Please give scripture.  What advantage do we have if Michael is Jesus.  What does that change. For me other than more truth I don't see how that changes anything.  If Michael were Jesus then the Word was named Michael.  Michael became flesh and was crucified for our sins.  Our debt would still have been paid, our sins forgiven. All I see is an organization sidetracking paople so they won't learn the truth, you cannot be in the family of God unless you are born again.  Salvation should be first, then if NEED be a discussion on Michael.  It's the same old trick of satan, give a little truth, then flood them with lies.  Ok Michael is Jesus, so now what?    I want is the truth.  It's the truth that makes you free. What advantage do we have if Michael is Jesus. Statements like this break the heart of God who gave His firstborn Son to save such a wicked people as ourselves. John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. That fact that God gave His deeply loved Son reveals the level of love He has for us. It's when we truly come to undertsand this love that God has for us that He is willing to give His very best to save us draws us to Him and casts out all fear. 1 John 4:10 Real love (God's love for us, not our love for God) is this: God sent His Son to be the way that God takes away our sins. Do you think God told Abraham, “What difference does it make if it's your only birthed son?”. The fact that Abraham was willing to give his only son revealed something about the character of Abraham towards God that made him the father of our faith. God giving His only birthed Son says something about God's character towards us. Satan has very successfully distored the Sonship of Jesus and made Him some mystical co-equal, co-eternal being with the one true God. Satan has told us that Jesus could not really fall into sin because He is God so all His temptations really didn't mean much. Satan has told us that Jesus didn't really die because God can't die. Satan could not make Jesus exalt Himself to be God, like he did to the first Adam, but he has taught us to believe Jesus did. So to say that it makes no difference whether we understand who Jesus really is to His Father is a stumbling block for truly seeking to know Him above what everyone else is telling us. To know the Father and His Son is so important to God that He says eternal life in bound up in the answer. John 17:3  “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. God gave His Son so that we might have life through Him. What an expression of love between the Father and His Son working together to save a poor, naked and wretched people as mankind. k4c, If your name is Jimmy or JANE IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE you are who you are. If the son of God were Michael it wouldn't matter to me He's still the Son of God who gave Himself for me.   I don't like any insinuating remarks that I don't care or love Jesus.  The fact  is you are in love with a name.  I'm in love with the Son of God who saved me.   Even if Jesus' name were Michael (you'll have to scriptural prive that) I would still love Him. What would it mean to you IF Jesus' name were Michael? Does that change that He died so we could commune with our FATHER.  But what it does is preoccupy you away from the truth which matters more than any name.  If you have the truth then you would have  the true name.  That's why I srtive for the truth.  Once you have the truth the puzzle fits together much easier than trying to fit the wrong piece in the right place. The name makes a huge difference. Why did God change Jacob's name to Israel, Why did God change Abram's name to Abraham, Why did Moses ask, “Who shall I say sent me”. Names in the Bible define the very character of those who bear them. When God changed people He changed their names to match their character. The Bible says, “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”. The Bible also says,”Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” I hope you can see your error, and the importance of names. If you call on the wrong name you cannot be saved.

If I call on the name Jesus I'll be in error? Should I call on Michael to save me?

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 11 2005,17:46)

Hi, Truly let the dead bury the dead.

Nick,

We agree on something

May be I'm missing something. Please show me what I'm missing. I certainly don't know it all, nobody does.

Are you basing your belief that Jesus was flesh while in heaven on 1 John?

Joh 1:14

(ALT) And the Word [or, the Expression of [divine] Logic] became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of an only-begotten [or, uniquely-begotten] from [the] Father, full of grace and truth.

(ASV) And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

(BBE) And so the Word became flesh and took a place among us for a time; and we saw his glory–such glory as is given to an only son by his father–saw it to be true and full of grace.

(ESV) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

(GW) The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.

(HCSB) The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory, the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

(ISV) The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. We gazed on his glory, the kind of glory that belongs to the Father's unique Son, full of grace and truth.

(KJV+) And2532 the3588 Word3056 was made1096 flesh,4561 and2532 dwelt4637 among1722 us,2254 (and2532 we beheld2300 his846 glory,1391 the glory1391 as5613 of the only begotten3439 of3844 the Father,)3962 full4134 of grace5485 and2532 truth.225

(KJV-1611) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among vs (& we beheld his glory, the glory as of the onely begotten of the Father) full of grace and trueth.

(KJVA) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

(MRC) And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

(Murdock) And the: Word became flesh, and tabernacled with us: and we saw his glory, a glory as of the only begotten from the Father, that he was full of grace and truth.

(SVD) وَالْكَلِمَةُ صَارَ جَسَداً وَحَلَّ بَيْنَنَا وَرَأَيْنَا مَجْدَهُ مَجْداً كَمَا لِوَحِيدٍ مِنَ الآبِ مَمْلُوءاً نِعْمَةً وَحَقّاً.

(WEB) The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Would you agree that the Word was not flesh and then became flesh?
**********************************************

1Jo 4:2

(ALT) By this is known the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses Jesus Christ [as] having come in [the] flesh is of God.

(ASV) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

(BBE) By this you may have knowledge of the Spirit of God: every spirit which says that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God:

(ESV) By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

(GW) This is how you can recognize God's Spirit: Every person who declares that Jesus Christ has come as a human has the Spirit that is from God.

(HCSB) This is how you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

(ISV) This is how you can recognize God's Spirit: Every spirit who acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

(KJV+) Hereby1722, 5129 know1097 ye the3588 Spirit4151 of God:2316 Every3956 spirit4151 that3739 confesseth3670 that Jesus2424 Christ5547 is come2064 in1722 the flesh4561 is2076 of1537 God:2316

(KJV-1611) Hereby know ye the spirit of God: euery spirit that confesseth that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God.

(KJVA) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

(MRC) By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Yeshua the Messiah has come in the flesh is from God;

(Murdock) By this the Spirit of God is known, every spirit that confesseth that Jesus the Messiah hath come in the flesh, is of God.

(SVD) بِهَذَا تَعْرِفُونَ رُوحَ اللهِ: كُلُّ رُوحٍ يَعْتَرِفُ بِيَسُوعَ الْمَسِيحِ أَنَّهُ قَدْ جَاءَ فِي الْجَسَدِ فَهُوَ مِنَ اللهِ،

(WEB) By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,

Taken in context with John 1:1 this is what 1 John is saying.
Anyone who says that the Messiah from heaven was Jesus in the flesh is of the Spirit of God.

[NickHassan]

Quote (k4c @ Dec. 11 2005,14:19)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 10 2005,21:05) Hi k4c, It staggers ma how JWs continue to state with conviction but no evidence that One being the Son of God is another, the angel Michael. Men will fantasise and propound nonsense forever. I'm not a JW… I believe Michael is Jesus not because someone told me but rather because of hours upon hours of study and prayer. The biggest reason why it took hours upon hours of study is because of all the false trinity concepts the Lord had to untie and remove from my faith and untwist from His word. Those who believe in a co-eternal, co-equal trinity God do so because they have been led to believe by man that it's true as I once was led to believe it was true. Orthodocy is not, nor has it ever been, a standard for truth. As a matter of fact, the orthodox religion of Jesus' day murdered the Son of glory. If the multitudes people want to believe God can be tempted when the Bible says He can't be tempted and if they want to believe God can die when the Bible says He can't die and if they want to believe that Jesus has all knowledge as His Father when Jesus stated plainly that He does not and if they want to believe that there are two co-eternal, co-equal God the Spirit in God when the Bible says there is but one Spirit and if they want to believe that the Father and the Son are equal when the Bible, as well as Jesus Himself, says the Father is greater then Jesus, this is their free will right to do so. But I can tell you from Scripture, they are believing a different Jesus… 2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he who comes teaching another Jesus whom we have not taught, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you may well put up with it. As far as having no evidence to Michael and Jesus being the same, I just put together a 50 page study packed with evidence to this truth. Even with all this, people will still reject the fact that Michael, the sinless Son of God, put on sinful flesh and died to save mankind. Luke 16:31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'” The truth of Jesus' Sonship has been successfuly distorted by Satan to the point that people truly have to come to be committed to personal study, putting aside all that they have been taught by man so that they can be led by the Spirit. In doing this you will lose most of your fellowship with the main line churches. The closer you get to God and the more truth He is able to teach you the further away from the multitudes you will be. Remember, it was the religious people of Jesus' day that hated Him most. If they hated Him they will hate you too. Matthew 7:14 “Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. This truth still rings clear even to this day…

Hi k4c,
You are preaching another Jesus-“Jesus is Michael”

[NickHassan]

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 11 2005,15:49)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 11 2005,17:46) Hi, Truly let the dead bury the dead. Nick, We agree on something May be I'm missing something.  Please show me what I'm missing. I certainly don't know it all, nobody does. Are you basing your belief that Jesus was flesh while in heaven on 1 John? Joh 1:14 (ALT)  And the Word [or, the Expression of [divine] Logic] became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of an only-begotten [or, uniquely-begotten] from [the] Father, full of grace and truth. (ASV)  And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth. (BBE)  And so the Word became flesh and took a place among us for a time; and we saw his glory–such glory as is given to an only son by his father–saw it to be true and full of grace. (ESV)  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (GW)  The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth. (HCSB)  The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory, the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (ISV)  The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. We gazed on his glory, the kind of glory that belongs to the Father's unique Son, full of grace and truth. (KJV+)  And2532 the3588 Word3056 was made1096 flesh,4561 and2532 dwelt4637 among1722 us,2254 (and2532 we beheld2300 his846 glory,1391 the glory1391 as5613 of the only begotten3439 of3844 the Father,)3962 full4134 of grace5485 and2532 truth.225 (KJV-1611)  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among vs (& we beheld his glory, the glory as of the onely begotten of the Father) full of grace and trueth. (KJVA)  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (MRC)  And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (Murdock)  And the: Word became flesh, and tabernacled with us: and we saw his glory, a glory as of the only begotten from the Father, that he was full of grace and truth. (SVD)  وَالْكَلِمَةُ صَارَ جَسَداً وَحَلَّ بَيْنَنَا وَرَأَيْنَا مَجْدَهُ مَجْداً كَمَا لِوَحِيدٍ مِنَ الآبِ مَمْلُوءاً نِعْمَةً وَحَقّاً. (WEB)  The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth. Would you agree that the Word was not flesh and then became flesh? ********************************************** 1Jo 4:2 (ALT)  By this is known the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses Jesus Christ [as] having come in [the] flesh is of God. (ASV)  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: (BBE)  By this you may have knowledge of the Spirit of God: every spirit which says that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God: (ESV)  By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, (GW)  This is how you can recognize God's Spirit: Every person who declares that Jesus Christ has come as a human has the Spirit that is from God. (HCSB)  This is how you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God. (ISV)  This is how you can recognize God's Spirit: Every spirit who acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God. (KJV+)  Hereby1722, 5129 know1097 ye the3588 Spirit4151 of God:2316 Every3956 spirit4151 that3739 confesseth3670 that Jesus2424 Christ5547 is come2064 in1722 the flesh4561 is2076 of1537 God:2316 (KJV-1611)  Hereby know ye the spirit of God: euery spirit that confesseth that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God. (KJVA)  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: (MRC)  By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Yeshua the Messiah has come in the flesh is from God; (Murdock)  By this the Spirit of God is known, every spirit that confesseth that Jesus the Messiah hath come in the flesh, is of God. (SVD)  بِهَذَا تَعْرِفُونَ رُوحَ اللهِ: كُلُّ رُوحٍ يَعْتَرِفُ بِيَسُوعَ الْمَسِيحِ أَنَّهُ قَدْ جَاءَ فِي الْجَسَدِ فَهُوَ مِنَ اللهِ، (WEB)  By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, Taken in context with John 1:1 this is what 1 John is saying. Anyone who says that the Messiah from heaven was Jesus in the flesh is of the Spirit of God.

Hi kenrch
“Jesus was flesh while in heaven”??

That is the missing link that I have never stated or implied.

All I am saying is that in God's eyes His Son's name 'Jesus' can be applied to his pre-flesh state. Partaking of flesh did not change his name to Jesus Christ. John spoke of Jesus and called him the “Word”, which is the usual name applied to him before his conception, but he was showing us the name link to the Son of Man that men only knew as Jesus Christ.

[kenrch]

Quote (Sultan @ Dec. 11 2005,10:24)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 10 2005,10:10) Quote (k4c @ Dec. 11 2005,05:58) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 10 2005,04:41) Hi K4c, I'm wide opened to the Word.  Please give scripture.  What advantage do we have if Michael is Jesus.  What does that change. For me other than more truth I don't see how that changes anything.  If Michael were Jesus then the Word was named Michael.  Michael became flesh and was crucified for our sins.  Our debt would still have been paid, our sins forgiven. All I see is an organization sidetracking paople so they won't learn the truth, you cannot be in the family of God unless you are born again.  Salvation should be first, then if NEED be a discussion on Michael.  It's the same old trick of satan, give a little truth, then flood them with lies.  Ok Michael is Jesus, so now what?    I want is the truth.  It's the truth that makes you free. What advantage do we have if Michael is Jesus. Statements like this break the heart of God who gave His firstborn Son to save such a wicked people as ourselves. John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. That fact that God gave His deeply loved Son reveals the level of love He has for us. It's when we truly come to undertsand this love that God has for us that He is willing to give His very best to save us draws us to Him and casts out all fear. 1 John 4:10 Real love (God's love for us, not our love for God) is this: God sent His Son to be the way that God takes away our sins. Do you think God told Abraham, “What difference does it make if it's your only birthed son?”. The fact that Abraham was willing to give his only son revealed something about the character of Abraham towards God that made him the father of our faith. God giving His only birthed Son says something about God's character towards us. Satan has very successfully distored the Sonship of Jesus and made Him some mystical co-equal, co-eternal being with the one true God. Satan has told us that Jesus could not really fall into sin because He is God so all His temptations really didn't mean much. Satan has told us that Jesus didn't really die because God can't die. Satan could not make Jesus exalt Himself to be God, like he did to the first Adam, but he has taught us to believe Jesus did. So to say that it makes no difference whether we understand who Jesus really is to His Father is a stumbling block for truly seeking to know Him above what everyone else is telling us. To know the Father and His Son is so important to God that He says eternal life in bound up in the answer. John 17:3  “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. God gave His Son so that we might have life through Him. What an expression of love between the Father and His Son working together to save a poor, naked and wretched people as mankind. k4c, If your name is Jimmy or JANE IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE you are who you are. If the son of God were Michael it wouldn't matter to me He's still the Son of God who gave Himself for me.   I don't like any insinuating remarks that I don't care or love Jesus.  The fact  is you are in love with a name.  I'm in love with the Son of God who saved me.   Even if Jesus' name were Michael (you'll have to scriptural prive that) I would still love Him. What would it mean to you IF Jesus' name were Michael? Does that change that He died so we could commune with our FATHER.  But what it does is preoccupy you away from the truth which matters more than any name.  If you have the truth then you would have  the true name.  That's why I srtive for the truth.  Once you have the truth the puzzle fits together much easier than trying to fit the wrong piece in the right place. The name makes a huge difference. Why did God change Jacob's name to Israel, Why did God change Abram's name to Abraham, Why did Moses ask, “Who shall I say sent me”. Names in the Bible define the very character of those who bear them. When God changed people He changed their names to match their character. The Bible says, “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”. The Bible also says,”Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” I hope you can see your error, and the importance of names. If you call on the wrong name you cannot be saved.

The point I'm trying to make is If it were true that the Messiah who became flesh were Michael then we would call on Michael. If the Son of God is Michael then there would be no difference because I would be calling on the name of the son of God my Lord and saviour.

IF the scripture would say Michael every place Jesus is written then it would be Michael the son of God and not Jesus.

So I would call Michael the son of God. If the Son's name is Michael as some are convinced then the only differance to them is the name.
To them Jesus is Michael and not the Word who became the flesh called Jessus.

Well the Lord knows my heart so if you can't understand what I'm saying then

[NickHassan]

Hi kenrch,
No connection to Michael or any other angel or archangel here. What are you on about?

[Author]

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