Who is this Jesus?

Participant

t8,Nov. wrote:

[/quote]

Quote

Hi Is 1:18,

I have kinda lost track a bit. Did you want me to give my opinions on the statements you made earlier regarding all that philosophical stuff about Christ?

I have already recounted the relevant exchanges for you t8.
Go back and review it.

Remember this?
“Here's a good idea: why don't you explain how you understand the verses I cited.”

Quote

I gave you the answer to the first one, where I showed Wisdom being born, and I can show you more,

You have'nt given me a plausible answer. If you are using Prov 30:22-30 to prove that Jesus = Wisdom then I have already shown you that its faulty reasoning. If you are trying to prove that God preceded His own wisdom then have a whole other set of problems to deal with!

And yes I like more please. Plausible ones.

Quote

but I wonder if I am wasting my time in doing that, as I cannot see you conforming to scripture, if it doesn't align with your Trinity doctrine.

When have I not conformed to scripture?

Quote

Anyway, did you now want me to show you where the son is mentioned before he came in the flesh? If so, I am a little puzzled because as far as I know, a proponent of the Trinity doctrine believes that the son existed before he came to earth.

Do you really think I would make a case for the pre-incarnate Word being the Creator (“the Heavens are the works of His hands”) if I didn't believe He pre-existed. Honestly t8, think before you write such things!

Quote

Please make it clearer as to what you want?

I have bee clear. Scroll back and review.

Quote

And I would also like to know if you are willing to change if scripture is shown to be different to what you believe

Yes, of course. The question is – are you?

Quote

Thanks, I look forward to your reply.

And I look forward to less evasion and more solid scriptural answers.

November 20, 2005 at 7:59 pm#10488

Participant

Hi,
Lk 22.70
“And they all said
'Are you the Son of God then?'
And he said to them
'Yes I am'”

Was he lying?

Should he have said that he was not really the Son of God only was called the Son of God. I believe him.
“Truly this man was the Son of God”

November 21, 2005 at 3:10 am#10501

kenrch

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 20 2005,08:29)

I have drawn my conclusion that God is uncreated from the reading the Bible and applying simple logic (we are commanded to love God with our mind – remember?). The Bible teaches that “ALL things” were created by God. There must be a first cause, and, in the context of creation, that first cause must be, by definition, uncaused. Otherwise we have a fallacy in logic. That's not Greek philosophy, its plain common sense.

t8,
I would appreciate if you would pleases address the individual points I have made today – like I have done for you. Thanks.

To Anyone,

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by the Word; and without the Word was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In the Word was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. KJV

Rom 4:17 As it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations.” Abraham acted in faith when he stood in God's presence, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence things that don't even exist ISV

God using the Word calls things into existence. God used Mary to make the Word flesh and named Him Jesus. Jesus said that He does nothing unless the Father doesit first. Joh 5:19 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Most positively, I say to you*, the Son is not able to be doing anything of Himself unless He sees the Father doing [it], for whatever He is doing, these also the Son likewise does. The Word is not of itself but of God.

November 21, 2005 at 4:11 am#10503

Participant

Hi kenrch,
“The Word is not of itself but of God”.
True but so is every being and everything of God.[Acts 17.28f]
The Word was with God so was a separate being from God.[Jn 1.2]
The Son has life in himself.[ Jn 5.26]
We are all originally sons of God through Adam.[Lk 3.38]
God no longer recognises that family link.

That is why you must be born again.[Jn 3.7]

November 21, 2005 at 9:51 am#10517

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 21 2005,12:55)

To Is 1:18,

Well it is really quite simple. Wisdom is an attribute of God and he chose to bring wisdom forth as the first of his works. Wisdom was given birth and was the craftsman at God's side when God created all things.

Seen as how you love to talk in philosophical terms, I leave you with some writings to chew on. All written before Nicene and specifically talk about the Word and Wisdom.

Tatian (165 A.D)
God was in the beginning, but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Word. For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary basis of all being, inasmuch as no creature was yet in existence, was alone, but inasmuch as He was all powerful, Himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with Him were all things; with Him, by Word-power, the Word himself also, who was in Him, subsists. And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father . Him [the Word] we know to be the Beginning of the world (cf. Rev. 3:14). But He came into being by participation, not by cutting off, for what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation, making its choice of function, does not render him deficient from whom it is taken. For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him. I myself, for instance, speak [words], and you hear, yet, certainly, I who converse do not become destitute of my word, by the transmission of speech, but by the utterance of my voice I endeavour to reduce to order the unarranged matter in your minds. And as the Word begotten in the beginning, begat in turn our world, having first created for himself the necessary matter, so also I, in imitation of the Word, being begotten again, and having become possessed of the truth, am trying to reduce to order the confused matter which is kindred with myself. For matter is not, like God, without beginning, nor, as having no beginning, is of equal power with God, it is begotten, and not produced by any other being, but brought into existence by the Framer of all things alone (Address to the Greeks, 5).

Theophilus of Antioch (ca. 175 A.D)
God made all things out of nothing, for nothing was coexisting with God, but He being His own place, and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom He might be known, for him, therefore, He prepared the world. For he that is created is also needy, but He that is uncreated stands in need of nothing. God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bosom, begat him, emitting him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by him He made all things. He [the Word] is called “the Beginning” [arche],1 because he rules, and is Lord of all things fashioned by him. He, then, being Spirit of God, and arche, and wisdom, and Power of The Highest, came down upon the prophets, and through them spoke of the creation of the world and of all other things. For the prophets were not when the world came into existence, but the wisdom of God which was in him, and His holy Word which was always present with him. Wherein he speaks thus by the prophet Solomon: “When He prepared the heavens I was there, and when He appointed the foundations of the earth I was by Him as one brought up with Him.” And Moses, who lived many years before Solomon, or, rather, the Word of God by Him as by an instrument, says, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” First he named the “Beginning,” and “creation,” then he brought in God, for not lightly and on slight occasion is it right to name God. For the divine wisdom foreknew that some would trifle and name a multitude of gods that do not exist. In order, therefore, that the Living God might be known by His works, and so that by His Word, God created the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, he [Moses] said, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Then having spoken of their creation, he [Moses] explains to us: “And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the water.” This, Holy Scripture teaches at the outset, to show that matter, from which God made and fashioned the world, was in some manner created, being produced by God. (10).

Hippolytus (ca. 230 A.D)
The first and Only, both Creator and Lord of all, had nothing coeval with Himself… He was One, Alone in Himself…. this Solitary and Supreme Deity, by an act of reflection, brought forth the Word first, not the Word in the sense of being expressed by voice, but as a Reason of the cosmos, conceived and residing in the Divine mind. Him alone He produced from existing things, for the Father Himself constituted existence, and the being born from Him was the cause of all things that are produced. The Word was in the Father Himself, bearing the will of his Progenitor, and not being unacquainted with the mind of the Father. For simultaneously with his procession from His Progenitor, inasmuch as he is this Progenitor's firstborn, he has, as a voice in himself, the concepts conceived in the Father. And so it was, that when the Father ordered the world to come into existence, the Word one by one completed each object of creation, thus pleasing God…. God, who is the source of all authority, wished that the Word might render assistance in accomplishing a production of this kind…. The Word alone of this God is from God himself, wherefore also the Logos is God [that is, “deity,” in the sense of nature of substance], being the substance of God…. Now the Word of God controls all these, the first begotten child of the Father, the voice of the Dawn antecedent to the Morning Star…. This Word, the Father in the latter days sent forth, no longer to speak by a prophet, and not wishing that the Word, being obscurely proclaimed, should be made the subject of mere conjecture, but that He should be manifested, so that we could see Him with our own eyes. This Word, I say, the Father sent forth…. This Word we know to have received a body from a virgin, and to have refashioned the old man by a new creation…. This Man we know to have been made out of the compound of our humanity…. He did not protest against his Passion, but became obedient unto death, and manifested his resurrection. Now in all these acts He offered up, as the first-fruits, his own manhood, in order that you, when you are in tribulation, maye not be disheartened, but, confessing yourself to be a man, may dwell in expectation of also receiving what the Father has granted unto this Son. (Against all Heresies, 10).

November 21, 2005 at 10:06 am#10518

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 21 2005,02:52)

1. Feminine pronouns are used to describe “wisdom”, Proverbs personifies the attribute of wisdom as a woman. So t8, is the pre-incarnate Word the “Son of God” or the “Daughter of God”? Make up your mind.

2. Proverbs 8 says that when God prepared the heavens, Wisdom was there. Was Christ only a spectator at creation?

No t8, the pre-incarnate Word had a very active role. Consider Psalm 102:25, which is directly ascribed to Jesus by the writer of Hebrews:

HEBREWS 1
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands

This part of the Psalm was written in reference to the Most High God, YHWH, and the writer of Hebrews unequivocally and unambiguously applied it to Jesus. It shows that the pre-incarnate Word was the actual executor of creation, the Heavens are the work of HIS hands. According to the writer it is the Father Himself who personally addresses his Son as THE Creator of the cosmos!

Not a passive onlooker t8.

To Is 1:18,

OK I found the words you were complaining that I never gave an answer to. I will start with talking about your quoted words above:

Some say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way as wisdom is referred to as a she. Even today we refer to objects or concepts as 'she'. We call boats, cars, wars, etc., 'she'. E.g., “She was a bad war alright”. “She can drive fast enough.” “She was a powerful storm.” But if I said “he can drive fast enough”, then most would assume I was talking about a person and not the car.

But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight.

First of a craftsman at God's side is not an onlooker. Otherwise the word craftsman would be inaccurate. Secondly, if wisdom in God was the first to be begotten (brought forth) then who was really first to be begotten? Was it Wisdom or the Word? Or are they one in the same? For God created all things with wisdom and would it be incorrect to call Jesus 'Wisdom'. If God created all things in truth, would it be incorrect to call Christ the 'Truth'. If God who is the originator of all life gave that life to his son, then could we not say that Jesus is the 'Life'. It appears that he is all those concepts or attributes of God, but personified. After all God created all creation through Christ and so would it not be befitting for Christ to be the personification of all those attributes of God.

Remember these two points:

That the fullness of God's nature dwells in Christ and Christ is a person. So if he reflects the fullness of God, then would it not be fair to say that Christ has all the attributes of God in person. He is God's image.
That Christ is between God and creation. He is the part or person where creation interfaces with God and God interfaces with creation. He is the only mediator for us. If God created all things through his wisdom, then he did it through Christ did he not.

November 21, 2005 at 10:23 am#10519

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 21 2005,02:52)

Are you seriously suggesting that the personification of wisdom in Prov 8:22-30 is valid testimony that Christ was begotten in eternity past? Here are a couple of major problems you have:

To Is 1:18,

You know I do not follow creeds, but I think you do, otherwise you should be able to think for yourself rather than relying on a ready made creedal formula as your foundation. But since you have done so, I point you to the following:

The Anathemas
of the
Second Council of Constantinople (553 AD)
from the Second Council of Constantinople (553 AD):

If anyone does not confess that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are one nature or essence, one power or authority, worshipped as a trinity of the same essence, one deity in three hypostases or persons, let him be anathema. For there is one God and Father, of whom are all things, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and one Holy Spirit, in whom are all things.

If anyone does not confess that God the Word was twice begotten, the first before all time from the Father, non-temporal and bodiless, the other in the last days when he came down from the heavens and was incarnate by the holy, glorious, God-bearer, ever-virgin Mary, and born of her, let him be anathema.

It seems to me that you are a heretic by witness of the Second Council of Constantinople, if you do not believe that the Word was begotten twice.

Of course being a heretic according to the creeds of men is no loss in my opinion, but would be a loss to you if you put your faith in these creeds. For what you believe to be sin is indeed sin to you, and if you believe in the creeds, then why do you appear to differ with the second point?

My next post will concentrate on scripture. But for now, it is late and I need to get some sleep.

November 21, 2005 at 4:24 pm#10520

kenrch

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 21 2005,04:11)

That is why you must be born again.[Jn 3.7]

Nick,

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:
Joh 5:27 and he gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man. (ASV)

…. even so gave he to the Son.. To the Son not the Word. This is after the Word was made flesh.

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. The Word was with God. The Father's Word was with Him. My words are with me. Does that mean that my words are a seperate being. Yes, I know God is not like us. But that doesn't change scripture. God speaks things into existence through His WORD. We can't speak things into existence, only God can do that.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

God made His Word flesh. Jesus the Word on earth. God thought Jesus the Word spoke.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:

The Word created everything. Now the Word became a being and God gave the Word life in Himself. The first born Son of God would naturally have eternal life. We when we shed this sinful flesh will have eternal life just as our BROTHER.

John 5:26 The Father gave the SON not the WORD life in Himself.
We will be the SONS of God having eternal life. The Father didn't have a Son before He begat Jesus through Mary.
That's what all this is about.
Heb 2:9 But we behold him who hath been made a little lower than the angels, even Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for every man. Jesus begotten of God while on earth was made lower that the angels. Jesus begotten of God was His Son on earth. Jesus the first fruit of the plan of God. When He was resurrected the Father called Him his Son again. We are Jesus' brothers and sisters here on earth and will be His brothers and sisters with eternal life in heaven.

November 21, 2005 at 4:48 pm#10521

Participant

Hi kenrch.
Jn 3.16f
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoevr believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world but that the world might be saved through him”

Who was with God? the Word
Who was sent into the world? The Son
Who came in the flesh? Jesus Christ.

So Word=Son=Jesus Christ

November 21, 2005 at 6:04 pm#10525

Participant

t8,Nov. wrote:

[/quote]

Quote

To Is 1:18,

And……? How does this have ANY bearing on the topic at hand? We're debating the timing of the begettal of Christ. Remember?

Quote

Seen as how you love to talk in philosophical terms

I use english t8, plain and simple. If my phraseology is a problem, then I can dumb it down for you. They are not philosophical terms – I have never studied philosophy, nor do I expound any here. That is another untruth from you t8. They are starting to pile up.

Quote

That's all very interesting t8, but why should I care what these men think? I do note that you were selective in your quotes though.

November 21, 2005 at 7:09 pm#10526

Participant

To Is 1:18,

Quote

OK I found the words you were complaining that I never gave an answer to. I will start with talking about your quoted words above:

No t8, this is not the post I wanted you to reply to. You will find it on pg 25 of the Holy Spirit thread.

Quote

But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight.

Not very substantial. You are making a lot of assumptions here t8. If you can find one verse from Prov 30:22-30 that is quoted and applied to Christ in the NT, then you will have something solid. Otherwise all you have is conjecture.

Quote

Remember these two points:

That the fullness of God's nature dwells in Christ and Christ is a person. So if he reflects the fullness of God, then would it not be fair to say that Christ has all the attributes of God in person. He is God's image.

It could be equally argued that God, in human form, would also have the fullness of “Deity”. So this verse should not be used to refute Christ's Deity. I agree that He did not have all the attributes of God (or rather, the independent usage of them) while He lived on Earth. In Phil 2:5-7 Paul explains why.

Quote

That Christ is between God and creation. He is the part or person where creation interfaces with God and God interfaces with creation. He is the only mediator for us. If God created all things through his wisdom, then he did it through Christ did he not.

At last, some deductive reasoning from you t8! However, you will first have to prove from scripture that wisdom = Christ for it to have substance and validity. Conjecture is not proof.

November 21, 2005 at 7:30 pm#10527

Participant

Quote

You know I do not follow creeds, but I think you do, otherwise you should be able to think for yourself rather than relying on a ready made creedal formula as your foundation.

I'm going to quote something I wrote to Cubes on pg 146 of the trinity thread (click):

“Let me also say that I have renounced all creeds, and statements of faith by anyone or anything. I put NO stock in any of them (never have) and DO NOT believe what I do because an institution has implanted their doctrine in me. I have come to my own conclusions via my own study and the Holy Spirit.”

So your assertion is, again, baseless – a definitive pattern if forming here.

Quote

It seems to me that you are a heretic by witness of the Second Council of Constantinople, if you do not believe that the Word was begotten twice.

Perhaps?…if your representation of me was accurate. But it was not. Here is a huge irony in all of this; The eternal generation is one article of the trinitarian credal formula that I oppose (because its patently unscriptural). But you, an archetypal anti-trinitarian, are defending it! Classic.

The rest of your post is based on your false premise, so I don't need to bother commenting on it.

I have some other obligations to David, so I'm going to stop responding to your posts for a while. But, I will remind you again that I am still waiting for you to:

1. Tell me what kind of being Jesus was before His incarnation.
2. Tell me how you understand the verses I cited in this post to Kenrch (pg 25, Holy Spirit thread):

Quote

Yes, I agree. I also find no account of an eternal generation of the pre-incarnate Word in either Testament. Jesus is only ever identified as a Son in a post-incarnation context and your statement aligns with the NT writers understanding of the origin of this title:

LUKE 1 (KJV)
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

LUKE 1 (NASB)
35The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

LUKE 1 (NIV)
35The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Jesus will be called the Son of God as a consequence of the incarnation event. Luke makes a very clear and direct linkage between these two variables here, in this verse.

Paul said he was “declared” (From G3725; that is, [figuratively] to appoint, decree, specify: – declare, determine, limit, ordain.) to be the Son of God:

ROMANS 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

He also associated the origin of the 'Sonship' of Christ with the Resurrection in Acts 13:33:

ACTS 13:33
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Therefore, to me it is conclusive that, at least in the mind of Paul, that He was not in any way 'birthed' by the Father. This is not how Paul appears to understand the origin of the title “Son”. In fact none of the NT writers use Ps 2:7 in reference to a pre-incarnation begettal.

HEBREWS 1
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father (future tense), and he shall be to me a Son?(future tense) 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world (future tense), he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Notice, that the Father declares that he pre-incarnate Word will be a Son to Him (The Father) immediately before the firstbegotten is brought into the world (in terms of the passages sequence). Clearly the writer intended to convey the relationship between the titles (Father and Son) and the earthly life of Christ. If this was a reference to the eternal begettal it doesn’t fit contextually.

As far as I know He is never called a Son before his incarnation (except in the case(s) of predictive prophecy). Add to this the biblical data attesting to the eternality of Christ and it appears conclusive that the title Son of God has everything to do with His earthly existence.

November 21, 2005 at 7:45 pm#10528

Participant

Hi Is.1.18,
Coll 2.8f
“See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form, and in him you have been made complete, and he is the head over all rule and authority…”
Compare
2Cor 5.19
“namely, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself..”
Eph 2.19f
” So you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus hinmself being the cornerstone, in which the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit”
Eph 3.19
” and to know the love of Christ, which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God”

Scripture does not misuse or waste words.

God as Spirit lived in Christ from his baptism. Jesus Christ, the Son of God or Word, came in the flesh. It was not God who came in the flesh. He was like us in all ways till his baptism. Then God dwelled in him and revealed Himself through him. He was not a God who dwelled in himself. He was not a part of a trinity God who dwelled in himself as well. God also can live in us. We can follow Jesus.

November 21, 2005 at 10:00 pm#10531

liljon

Participant

Jesus is not the literal wisdom of Proverbs 8 (Jeremiah 10:12)
Wisdom means Wisdom that is God's knowledge.
Neither Wisdom nor Jesus is created. Jesus himself declared he was eternal in John 8:58 that was the reason they tried to stone him

November 21, 2005 at 10:36 pm#10532

Participant

Hi liljon
Jn 8.58
“Jesus said to them
'Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born I am'”

Does it surprise you liljon that the Son of God through whom all creation came preceded Abraham? I would have thought that was a very obvious statement for Jesus to make. Just because ignorant fools misinterpret those words to think he means he was the Father is irrelevant. Of course he was before Abraham if he was with God in the beginning.

November 21, 2005 at 11:36 pm#10535

Participant

To Is 1:18,

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 22 2005,14:30)

So your assertion is, again, baseless – a definitive pattern if forming here.

Baseless? Uhuh!

Yet the Trinity doctrine you teach is a creed and not scripture at all. Anyone with a clear mind could tell you that. So if you put no faith in creeds, why is it that you are a proponent of the creeds, the Nicene one in particular?

It is quite easy to see when one promotes scripture, but you promote the conclusions of men from the 3rd century.

“But for us, there is one God the Father, and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.” But for you there is “one God, the Father, Son , and the Holy Spirit”. Who is right? If you choose the second one, then you do so at the expense of scripture itself.

I will post more later when I have time.

November 21, 2005 at 11:42 pm#10536

Participant

“”Let me also say that I have renounced all creeds, and statements of faith by anyone or anything. I put NO stock in any of them (never have) and DO NOT believe what I do because an institution has implanted their doctrine in me. I have come to my own conclusions via my own study and the Holy Spirit.“

Ok, that was my last post to you t8 for the mean time. David, i'm working on your posts at present.

December 7, 2005 at 4:45 pm#10723