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Hi F4Y,
I agree in part. We know the only begotten Son was with the Father in the beginning. But the beginning was pre existed by God who is eternal and not confined by creations like time or beginnings. If the Son was also eternal then he is not a son and he was not begotten. He is, however, also the beginning of the creation of God. And all things were created through him according to scripture.Nick,
I do not believe that the only begotten son Yahshua was with Father Yahweh in the beginning. I believe that the world was created 'on account of' or 'for' Yahshua, not 'by' or 'through' him as the K.J.V. and the R.S.V. translates di' or dia. See the Emphatic Diaglott's translation of Hebrews 1:2.
Does Hebrews 1:1-2; Colossians 1:16-17 & John 1:10 Say That Yahshua Was Involved in the Creation of the World?
Please note how these passages are translated in the Emphatic Diaglott Greek Interlinear.
Diaglott, Hebrews 1:1-2
Hebrews 1:1 In many parts and in many ways long ago the God having spoken to the fathers by the
prophets, in last of the days of these spoke to us by a son,
Hebrews 1:2 whom he appointed an heir of all things, (on account of whom also the ages he made,)
Diaglott, Colossians 1:16-17
Colossians 1:16 because in him were created the things all, the things in the heavens and the things
on the earth, the things seen and the things unseen, whether thrones, or lordships, or governments,
or authorities; the things all on account of him and for him have been created;
Colossians 1:17 and he is in advance of all, and the things all in him has been placed together;
Diaglott, John 1:10
John 1:10 In the world he was, and the world through him was, and the world him not knew.
The Greek word di' or dia which is translated 'by' in the A.K.J.V. and 'through' in the R.S.V. in Hebrews 1:2 is translated 'on account of' in the Emphatic Diaglott.
This changes the meaning of this passage of Hebrews 1:1-2 considerably from how the K.J.V. and the A.S.V. translates. It does not say that Yahshua was involved in the creation of the world, but that the world was created “on account of” of him. This translation brings Hebrews 1:2 in harmony with the entire context of Scripture, in that it was Father Yahweh Who created the heavens and the earth ALONE ( cf. Psalm 121:1, 33:6-9; Isaiah 44:24) . Following is how the K.J.V. and the R.S.V. translates Hebrews 1:2.
K.J.V., Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
R.S.V., Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
Now, I ask you, are you going to ignore the entire context of Scripture where it is said that Father Yahweh ALONE created the heavens and the earth for how a translator may have translated a word in a few passages?
Even Yahshua himself credited Father Yahweh for the creation of Adam and Eve, not even so much as mentioning that he had any hand in creating them.
Have you not read, that He Who made [them] at the beginning made them male and female, (Matthew 19:4; Genesis 1:27)
Yahshua surely had an involment in the creation of the heavens and the earth in that Father Yahweh had him in mind, but he had no hand in the actual creation in the beginning. He was not a “co-creator” with Father Yahweh in the beginning as many deceptively teach. He did not even “pre-exist” with Father Yahweh, nor was he Father Yahweh. Yahshua was Father Yahweh's son as Scripture teaches.
There is much more information to go over on my web sites and links also.
Peace greetings Nick,
If I remenber right, did I not suggest that you send for Voy Wilk's studies on the doctrine of a “pre-existent Yahshua”? If not, I would strongly suggest that you request these studies. There are some 70+ studies that he was on this subject. I believe that you will get much needed knowlege from them. Oh, and they are FREE! Request them at [email protected] .
Hi liljon,
He preexisted all things and they were created through him. But he did not pre exist the Father from whom he was begotten in the beginning.Hi F4Y,
Tell us more about the “Emphatic Diaglott” bible.
Why should we give it better attention than other versions?
What does it say about John 1.1?
Who were the “We” in Genesis?
Were the sons of God shown in Job 38 created before The Son in your view?
Was the Son sent though he was only a thought in the mind of God in your opinion?The Son knew where he had come from and where he was going and seemed familiar with heaven despite your views.There are other unanswered quesions in a previous post too.
Yes Jesus pre-existed all things. God is not a thing however. He is called Father for a reason and Jesus is called the son for a reason.
Hi,
According to scripture Jesus Christ was a man.
Man is dust.
He had a human mother and God was his natural Father by the Spirit.
He was not God who came as man.
He was a man just like us with no special powers except what were given to him by the Spirit of God.
He was a man who died.
God worked His powers through him as a willing submitted vessel.
Acts 2.22
” …Jesus, the Nazarene, a MAN attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him, in your midst, just as you yourselves know-this MAN, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to the cross by the hands of godless men and put him to death”But
Jesus Christ came IN the flesh. So just as man became a living spirit, the Word became flesh and thus he is the “man from heaven”. As a being, the Son of God, he lived with the Father before coming in flesh and he did not even acquire the mane “Jesus Christ” at that birth but he, Jesus Christ” came in flesh according to scripture.
He emptied himself and was seen as an ordinary man from an ordinary family till he was empowered by the Spirit of God.
Hi liljon,
Jn 8.58
“…before Abraham was, I am”
1Jn 5.20
“And we know that the Son of God has come and given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life”
So Jesus christ is the Son of God and not God Himself. He existed before Abraham being from the beginning with God. His Father is the true God and we are in him and have eternal life if we are in the Son. Jesus came in flesh and His Father was revealed through His Spirit in him.
1Jn 4.2
” ..every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God”Yes Nick,
Every spirit that confesses that Jesus came in the flesh is of God.
It doesn't say as Lijon is promoting that we must believe that God came in the flesh.Lijon, do you believe that Jesus (the Word) came in the flesh or that God came in the flesh?
Which is it?Hey, don't you guys (administrators) have pages and pages of scriptures somewhere (maybe in the trinity thread) that show that Jesus and Jehovah are separate and distinct.
Couldn't you just point him to one of those?Hi david,
Dear liljon has seen them all many times and stonewalls every one. However it is always good practice to look some of them up again for the other viewers.The word became flesh. But of course The Word was God. Everything was created through him. He is not a creation himself. Yeshuah was also Thomas' Paul's and Peter's God.
Hi, liljon.
So you agree all things were created through him……. but not by him or for him?
That seems to agree with 1Cor 8.6.
” yet for us there is but one God, The Father, from whom are all things , and we exist for Him;and one Lord Jesus christ, through whom are all things, and we exist through him”
Good call.Hi
2 Peter 1.16
” For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made know to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to him by the Majestic Glory
'This is My breloved Son with whom I am well pleased”-And we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain”
Who is the Majestic Glory? The Father who is God.
Whose majesty did Peter see? That of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
And he received honor and glory from God, his Father.Hi,
Lk 22.67f
“If you are the Christ, tell us'
But he said to them
'If I tell you, you will not believe; and if I ask a question, you will not answer. But from now on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the Power of God;
And they all said
'Are you the son of God, then?'
And he said to them
'Yes, I am'
Then they said
'What further need do we have of testimony? For we have heard it ourselves from his own mouth”Jesus himself had asked this question himself before and wondered about their logic.
Jn 10.36
“do you say of him, whom the Father sanctified, and sent into the world
'You are blaspheming' because I said' I am the Son of God'?Scripture records that the sons of Adam are indirectly sons of God and the Israelites are sons of God. Indeed they themselves had claimed to be sons of God.
Jn 8.41
” ,..They said to him
'We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, God”So what is the basis for the blasphemy charge and who else will condemn the son of God for telling the truth?
Jn“Before Abraham Was, I Am” (Jn.8:58)
These words are often misapplied to teach that Jesus existed before Abraham did. However, closer investigation reveals the opposite to be true:
1. Jesus does not say 'Before Abraham was, I was”. He was the promised descendant of Abraham; we make a nonsense of God's promises to Abraham if we say that Jesus physically existed before the time of Abraham.
2. The context of Jn.8:58 is Christ's discourse with the Jews concerning Abraham. As far as they were concerned, Abraham was the greatest man who would ever live. Jesus is saying “I am now, as I stand here, more important than Abraham”. As they stood there, Jesus was the one to be honoured rather than Abraham. He is saying 'I am now, more important than Abraham ever was'. It is possible to understand “before” in Jn.8:58 with some reference to time, in the sense that before Abraham existed, Christ had been in God's plan right from the beginning of the world. It was because Jesus was “before” Abraham in this sense that he was “before” him in terms of importance.
3. Proof of this is found in Jn.8:56: “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad”. The only time Abraham is recorded to have laughed and be glad was when he was given the promise that he would have a seed; he understood that ultimately that promise had reference to Jesus (Gen.17:17). Abraham “saw” ahead to Christ through the promises made to him concerning Jesus. He cryptically commented about the future sacrifice of Jesus: “In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen” (Gen.22:14). It was in this sense that Jesus speaks of Abraham as having seen him. It is in this context of speaking about the promises that Jesus could say “Before Abraham was, I am”. He appreciated, as we have explained in Section 3.1, that God's promises to Abraham were revealing the plan about Jesus which God had known from the beginning of the world. That purpose, which had been “before Abraham was”, had been revealed to Abraham in the promises to him, and was now being fulfilled in the eyes of the Jews of the first century, as they stood in a ring around Jesus, “the word (of promise) made flesh”.
4. It is often claimed that Jesus is alluding to the Divine Name when he says “I am”. We explained in Digression 3 that Jesus and indeed ordinary men can carry the Name of God, without this meaning that they are God Himself in person. However, it may be that Jesus is simply using the present tense of the verb 'to be'. The very same Greek construction occurs in Jn.9:9 a few verses later. The neighbours of the blind man who was cured asked each other whether he was indeed the same man who used to sit and beg: “Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am (he)” . You will notice that in the A.V. the word “he” is in italics. This means that it is not found in the original Greek text, but has been added by the translators. The blind man is saying “I am”, just as Jesus said “I am” in Jn.8:58. If we say that the fact Jesus said “I am” proves that he is very God, then we have to conclude that the blind man was also “very God”. However, it is worth noting that Yahweh, the Divine Name, really means “I will be who I will be” (Ex.3:14 R.S.V.mg.; R.V.mg.) rather than “I am”.
“Before Abraham Existed, I Existed.”?
Yahshua (Jesus) did NOT pre-exist!
Link 1. http://cdelph.org/jesus.html
Link 2. http://www.learnbible.net/jcprexst.html
Link 3. http://www2.bibelcenter.de/bibliothek/bland/1god4.html
Link 4. http://www.resurrectionhope.org/jesuspre.htm
Link 5. http://www.mindspring.com/~anthonybuzzard/whoisjesus.htm
Link 6. http://www.mindspring.com/~anthonybuzzard/preexist.htm
Yahweh ALONE Created the Heavens And The Earth
Link 1. http://www.halleluyah.org/alone.htm
Link 2. http://www.halleluyah.org/one_lone_yahweh.htm
Psalm 78 and The Pre-Existence
http://www.halleluyah.org/psalm_78_and_the_pre%20existence.htmYahshua – Was He the Yahweh of the Old Testament?
http://www.halleluyah.org/yahshua….ent.htmYahshua was not a Lawgiver
http://www.halleluyah.org/yahshua_was_not_a_lawgiver.htmHi F4y,
No, I disagree. You denigrate the Son of God to be less than the angels and the other sons of God shown in Genesis 6, Jb 1-2 and 38. You make him less than these and yet they and all other things were created through him. Yes when he came as man he was for a time less than them. You make him less than the firstborn and thus reduce the term to be just a title. You make him no longer the only begotten image and the beginning of the creation of God.
You make him just a man. Yes he was like us when he came in the flesh but he was in the beginning with God. Men, angels and even demons recognised who he really was and gave him the respect he was due.
I do not think your doctrines do though.
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