Who is this Jesus?

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June 22, 2005 at 7:57 pm#7372

Anonymous

Guest

Quote (Guest @ June 22 2005,20:50)

There is still only echad Savior.

Yes, and that is THROUGH Yahshua. Noone comes unto Father Yahweh, but by Yahshua. Our Redeemer is Father Yahweh.

June 22, 2005 at 8:20 pm#7373

Frank4YAHWEH

Participant

Many teach that Yahshua was Father Yahweh's spokesperson in a pre-existant state from the very beginning. This is not true! In accordance with Hebrews 1:1-2 it was the prophets of old who were Father Yahweh's spokespersons and it has only been in the last days that Yahshua was Father Yahweh's spokesperson. Father Yahweh's word was manifest (made known) in the flesh through the prophets of old, just as His word was manifest (made known) through His son Yahshua in the last days.

“Yahweh, Who at various times and in different ways spoke IN TIME PAST to our fathers through the prophets, Has IN THESE LAST DAYS spoken unto us through [his] son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, for whom He also made the world …” (Hebrews 1:1-2)

Yahshua Did Not Pre-exist And Is Not Father Yahweh!

June 22, 2005 at 10:23 pm#7374

NickHassan

Participant

Quite so F4Y,
He spoke through the prophets till He sent His Son to teach us. How does that imply the Son did not exist till then sorry?

June 22, 2005 at 11:11 pm#7375

Anonymous

Guest

Micah 5:2 – But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

June 23, 2005 at 1:15 am#7378

NickHassan

Participant

Quite so FYI,
He is a being of great glory whom some would diminish to be only a man.

June 23, 2005 at 1:28 am#7380

Anonymous

Guest

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2005,02:15)

Quite so FYI,
He is a being of great glory whom some would diminish to be only a man.

That would be a travesty:

Isaih 9:6 – [In Context|Original Hebrew]
For a child R314 will be born to us, a son R315 will be given to us; And the government R316 will rest F116 on R317 His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful R318 Counselor, Mighty R319 God, Eternal Father, R320 Prince of Peace. R321

Study Resources:

http://www.searchgodsword.org/desk….=1&sr=1

June 23, 2005 at 1:29 am#7381

NickHassan

Participant

Yes,
The only begotten Son of God.

June 23, 2005 at 1:34 am#7383

Anonymous

Guest

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2005,02:29)

Yes,
The only begotten Son of God.

I like the way Ignatius put it:

Ignatius
Ignatius died in 110 AD. He was a disciple of the Apostle John and was the bishop of Antioch. He was martyred in Rome only 10 years after John died. Ignatius is as close to the source as you can get. He had several interesting quotes concerning the Trinity doctrine:

“We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.”

June 23, 2005 at 5:01 am#7387

epistemaniac

Participant

Quote (callsign @ June 22 2005,11:39)

I am not meaning to be rude, but what is clear as a bell? That God is a Saviour because He sent his only Son to die on the cross because he knew that later on it became very hard for people to follow the Law. So he sent His Son to Die on the Cross and become the Saviour of all of us?

So God and Jesus are both Saviours?

Since you are trying to prove the trinity doctrine, I have one question WHY on earth would you believe in anything that was forced on people to believe in or they would have civil punishments from your church such as death, excommunication, and other civil punishments. Many Many Many deaths were because people refused to believe in your doctrine. Why would you even remotley want to support a doctrine that would kill another living being? Isn't Jesus the one that judges death? Seems like they were right when they said the thief comes to Kill, Steal, and Destroy. That is all that the trinity theory has done to all of mankind.

hey there call sign… or “S”

just to comment on your saying “WHY on earth would you believe in anything that was forced on people to believe in or….” etc etc….

you need to know that this line of thought is completely irrelevant as to whether or not the doctrine of the trinity is biblical or not….

why? Well because it is an argument that appeals to historical facts surrounding persons who said they believed in the trinity….. and not to whether or not the doctrine is biblical…. Or lets look at it this way… lets take your appeal to say this “WHY on earth would you believe in anything that was forced on people to believe or they would have civil punishments….” and lets point out the historical fact that this attempt at coercion was used also by persons forcing others to believe all sorts of things, including, I would venture to say, religious beliefs that you have…. For instance… persons who believe there is only one God and the only way to peace with God is through Jesus…. These persons persecuted the Jews, had them killed and exiled etc…. does this mean that we have to abandon the idea that Jesus is the true Messiah just because certain persons tried to force this belief on others? Of course not. But even if this weren’t the case, that for some reason you held beliefs that no one has ever tried to force on someone else, the point is still this: trying to say that someone else’s belief is false simply based on what some people with that same belief did or did not do is irrelevant as to ascertaining whether or not the belief itself is true or false.

This type of appeal is logically fallacious on a number of levels… a few are

Argumentum ad misercordiam…. “how can you believe the trinity is true!?!? Look at what some people who believed in the trinity did to some other people!?”
Well, what some people who believed in the Trinity did is quite beyond my control, and I can say that I do not agree with their principles of persuasion, but none of these things makes the doctrine of the trinity false.

Argumentum ad consequentium…. “if you believe in the trinity you will be believing in the same thing that some people who did bad things to others did!”
Just because I believe the same things (in this case the Trinity) that others did and do, and these other people did morally wrong things to others…. Which, btw, I do not agree with, it hardly stands to reason that just because I believe what they do, in this instance, it somehow associates me with them in their immoral activity or makes me automatically approve of their actions. What people do or have done does not disprove my belief or theirs.

In fact, a person who claims to believe in God can do all sorts of bad things… murder… rape… theft… etc…. all these actions are of course wrong, but that does not make their belief in God false.

This ad hominem/guilty by association approach you are using has been attempted so many times at this forum its nearly beyond belief…. Its also been used many times to try and disprove Calvinism simply by saying that Calvin was involved in the execution of Servetus…. Calvin should not have condoned this even if it was political policy to do so, and that policy was not instituted by him, but that hardly makes any single one of his beliefs false!

I would heartily recommend that anyone and everyone take a least a cursory look at the Informal Fallacy section of a workbook on logic, it would curb many of the attempts at proving the trinity wrong based on facts, propositions, ideas, etc that really have nothing to do with whether or not the doctrine is true.

So your conclusion “That is all that the trinity theory has done to all of mankind.” Would have been and should have been never reached by you or any thinking person if these steps were to be taken, because it is manifestly evident that the trinity theory has never done anything to anyone, as it is a biblical concept, and, as such, doesn’t have the power to do anything to anyone…. Its just like the saying… “guns don’t kill people, people kill people” is true… so to is it in this case… the trinity doctrine doesn’t kill people, but people who say they believe the trinity is true have killed people, but THIS DOES NOT mean the trinity is false…. again, the doctrine that there is a God doesn’t kill people, but people who say they believe in God do kill people…. But THIS DOES NOT mean that the belief “God exists” is false….

blessings

June 23, 2005 at 5:47 am#7388

NickHassan

Participant

Hi E,
It does remain a biblical test that
” by their fruit you will know them”

June 23, 2005 at 6:01 am#7389

epistemaniac

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2005,18:26)

Hi FYI,
Jesus is not a deity. Deities are worshipped. He was not and is not worshipped by us. He is of divine nature but FOR US there is one God and one Lord.

Nick, how can you say Jesus is not to be worshipped when His true disciples did in fact worship Him?

Matthew 28:9 ESV And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.”

Later in this chapter we have another explicit example of Jesus' true disciples behaving towards Him as any true disciple must….
Matthew 28:16-17 ESV
(16) Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them.
(17) And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.

So Nick, when you refuse to worship Jesus, you show the serious flaw and error in your faith…. that your refusal to acknowledge Jesus as He is, that in your rush to deny the biblical doctrine of the Trinity, you have rushed headlong over the cliff into heresy by refusing to worship the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, second person of the Trinity. I am not sure what Jesus you have conjuered, but it is not the one true Jesus, the Jesus of the Bible, the Jesus who is worshipped… the Jesus of whom the Bible says that one day every knee will bow before Him…. the question is Nick… will you bow before Him willingly… in obedience and worship as His true disciples will…? Or will you be brought to your knees unwillingly, before Jesus as Judge and not as savior?

So I agree with your point that deities are worshipped, what you need to do is to take your own belief in this regard one step further and realize that since Jesus' discilples worshipped Jesus that He was deity, and that this is but one more piece of Scripture pointing to the verity of the Trinity.

another example of Jesus being worshipped is here:
Matthew 14:28-33 ESV
(28) And Peter answered him, “Lord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water.”
(29) He said, “Come.” So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water and came to Jesus.
(30) But when he saw the wind,[4] he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out, “Lord, save me.”
(31) Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?”
(32) And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased.
(33) And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

In fact Nick, not only will every knee bow before Jesus… some in loving obedience and worship, some unwillingly…. but even the angels will worship Jesus….
Heb 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God's angels worship him.”

so while I have to say how shocked I was to see you explicitly refusing to worship Jesus… it was inevitable given your denial of the trinity…. that it would lead you into such gross error… I truly hope that you will see the error in this Nick…. if you refuse to worship Jesus… you are lost…
blessings

June 23, 2005 at 6:16 am#7390

epistemaniac

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2005,06:47)

Hi E,
It does remain a biblical test that
” by their fruit you will know them”

I agree Nick, and your refusal to worship Jesus is all the fruit I need to see about you…. because it is a direct reflection of your beliefs….

however, the point I made earlier is this…. that not every belief can be deemed true or false based on how the person holding those beliefs acts….. lets face it…. Nick, I do not know you… but I would venture to say that it is a pretty fair and safe bet that you are a sinner…. correct? Now, does the the fact that you are a sinner mean that your doctrine of God is true or false? I mean, I could say, if I were reasoning like some seem to do, that since you, Nick, sin, it must mean that your denial of the Trinity is false…. but is there some kind of direct connection between your sin and the truthfulness or falsity of your denial of the Trinity? Of course not. If the Trinity is false, it is false for reasons other than the fact that you, as a nontrinitarian, are a sinner….. that just because you are a sinner… it does not follow that your beliefs are automatically false….. your nontrinitarianism does happen to be false, but it is false on grounds other than the fact that you are a sinner… that’s basic ad hominem argumentation, and its fallacious…..

and remember, people who say they believe in God have done some pretty terrible things, this does not mean that their belief in God is wrong, now does it?

and so it is with trying to say that the doctrine of the trinity is false simply because people who are sinners believe it to be true…. the fact that persons who think the trinity is true have also done sinful things hardly means for a minute that the doctrine of the trinity is false… no more so then the fact that since you are a sinner that your anti or nontrinitarianism is false…. if your nontrinitarianism is false… its false for reasons other then the fact that you are a sinner…. if the doctrine of the trinity is false… its false for reasons other than the fact that sinners believe it to be true…

I do not know how many more and different ways this can be said… if you are still not understanding the nature of ad hominem argumentation, let me know… and I will try to keep going over it until you get it… its crucial that you do “get it” Nick…. so much of your so-called argumentation against the trinity is based on faulty reasoning, it would really be of benefit to you to understand this point…

but then, as long as you refuse to worship Jesus Nick… you have much more serious issues to deal with…

blessings

June 23, 2005 at 7:43 am#7392

NickHassan

Participant

Hi E,
Where is trinity taught in the bible?

June 23, 2005 at 12:21 pm#7396

Anonymous

Guest

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2005,08:43)

Hi E,
Where is trinity taught in the bible?

Matthew 3:16 – And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Matthew 10:20 – For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Matthew 12:28 – But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Luke 4:18 – The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

John 14:17 – Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 15:26 – But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13 – Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Acts 5:9 – Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

Acts 8:39 – And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Romans 1:4 – And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Romans 8:2 – For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:9 – But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:11 – But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 8:14 – For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 8:15 – For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Romans 15:19 – Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:11 – For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12 – Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14 – But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 3:16 – Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Corinthians 4:21 – What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

1 Corinthians 6:11 – And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 7:40 – But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 12:3 – Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

2 Corinthians 3:3 – Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

2 Corinthians 3:17 – Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2 Corinthians 3:18 – But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2 Corinthians 4:13 – We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Galatians 4:6 – And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Ephesians 1:13 – In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 1:17 – That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Ephesians 4:30 – And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Philippians 1:19 – For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

2 Thessalonians 2:8 – And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Timothy 1:7 – For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Hebrews 9:14 – How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 10:29 – Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

1 Peter 1:11 – Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1 Peter 4:14 – If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

1 John 4:2 – Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1 John 4:3 – And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Revelation 1:4 – John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 3:1 – And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 4:5 – And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 – And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst
of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

1 Corinthians 6:17 – But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13 – For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Ephesians 2:18 – For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephesians 4:4 – There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

John 4:24 – God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Deuteronomy 6:4 – Hear, O Israel: The YHWH our God is echad YHWH:

June 23, 2005 at 1:00 pm#7397

Anonymous

Guest

So, how many Spirits are in us?

Spirit of God?

Spirit of Christ?

Holy Spirit?

Answer:

One (echad) Spirit

1 Corinthians 12:13 – For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Deuteronomy 6:4 – Hear, O Israel: The YHWH our God is echad YHWH:

June 23, 2005 at 4:08 pm#7400

NickHassan

Participant

Quote (Guest @ June 23 2005,14:00)

So, how many Spirits are in us?

Spirit of God?

Spirit of Christ?

Holy Spirit?

Answer:

One (echad) Spirit

1 Corinthians 12:13 – For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Deuteronomy 6:4 – Hear, O Israel: The YHWH our God is echad YHWH:

Exactly FYI,
One Spirit poured out by God into His Son and into us revealing His grace and power and loving nature to all and uniting us in Him.

God is one and not three.

June 23, 2005 at 4:11 pm#7401

NickHassan

Participant

Quote (Guest @ June 23 2005,13:21)