Who is this Jesus?

[Cubes]

Quote (roberts @ Feb. 26 2005,00:19)

The word begotten means “unique” one.  The nature (essence) of God was begotten (unique).

Hi roberts,

Huh?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 21 2003,23:22)

I have removed this post as my belief that Yahshua pre-existed has now changed.

That is not very honest of you RamblinRose and it doesn't help us in searching for the truth when you do this as other posts in reply to yours will not make sense to the reader.

Truth seems to have taken a back seat to defending your pride so it seems.

I think that you shouldn't have changed the past (post) but given your reasons later on as to why you have since changed your view. At least people will listen to you and it all then makes sense to the reader too.

But when you delete or change posts from the past it shows me that you are ashamed of your journey. It makes me wonder how I can believe that your conclusion now is a good one, if you have no faith in how you got there.

[Evangelion]

I cordially invite you all to click here.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Yeshua was different to us in one way. When we die our body decays but his did not.
Acts 2. 26f
” '..Moreover my flesh also will abide in hope;because thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades ,nor allow they holy One to undergo decay.Thou hast made known to me the ways of life ;thou wilt make me full of gladness with thy presence'
Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriach David that he both died and was buried ,and his tomb is with us to this day. And so because he was a prophet, and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants upon his throne he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ , that he was neither abandoned to Hades , nor did his flesh suffer decay.This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses”

[liljon]

Cubes, Jesus does things ascribed to God because he is
Rev 2:23
Zechariah 14

[NickHassan]

Hi liljon,
So Hebrews 1 .1-6 is incorrect and we should believe you instead???

It says three times there that he is the Son of God and also
God's spokesperson
God's heir
The radiance of God's glory
The exact representation of God's nature
The instrument of God's creation
The upholder of God's creation
The one who sits at God's right hand

And that all tells you he is the Father?
You stand alone in that view.

[Cubes]

Quote (liljon @ Mar. 01 2005,20:57)

Cubes, Jesus does things ascribed to God because he is Rev 2:23 Zechariah 14

JESUS says of himself:

Rev 1:17b-18…I am the first and the Last. I am he who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Rev 2:1b …these things says he who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands

Rev 2:8b These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:

Rev 2:12b: these things says he who has the sharp two-edged sword:

Rev 2:18b: These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and his feet like fine brass:

Rev 2:26-27: And he who overcomes, and keeps my works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—as I also have received from My Father.

Rev 3:1b: These things says he who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars:

Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the book of life; but I will confess his name before My father and before his angels.

Rev 3:7b: These things says he who is holy, he who is true, he who has the key of David, he who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens.

Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God. And I will write on him my new name.

Rev 3:14b These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True WITNESS, the beginning of the creation of God:

Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on his throne.

——————————-
These are the ways in which Jesus perceives himself.
In b/n those passages are things that he does as far as his scope of authority goes. We will all do well to heed his voice in all things. Obviously he is great! But we cannot ignore what his own testimony says about him, and he never claims to be the Father or even infers it. You kick against the goads on this one, liljon.

[Cubes]

Quote (liljon @ Mar. 01 2005,20:57)

Cubes, Jesus does things ascribed to God because he is Rev 2:23 Zechariah 14

Hi liljon,

On page 130 of the Trinity thread, I posted a response to Zechariah 14. Let me know what you think.

[Ramblinrose]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 26 2005,15:11)

Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 21 2003,23:22) I have removed this post as my belief that Yahshua pre-existed has now changed. That is not very honest of you RamblinRose and it doesn't help us in searching for the truth when you do this as other posts in reply to yours will not make sense to the reader. Truth seems to have taken a back seat to defending your pride so it seems. I think that you shouldn't have changed the past (post) but given your reasons later on as to why you have since changed your view. At least people will listen to you and it all then makes sense to the reader too. But when you delete or change posts from the past it shows me that you are ashamed of your journey. It makes me wonder how I can believe that your conclusion now is a good one, if you have no faith in how you got there.

The post that was deleted was only a couple of lines and unrelated to what was currently being discussed, otherwise I would not have deleted it.

If you care to check the Trinity postings you will see that I have only edited a couple of posts and others have simply had a large message placed at the bottom stating that I no longer held to the belief I had earlier posted.

I have re-edited the post referred to above and added that it was not relevant to the discussion at hand.

[liljon]

Cubes, I don't think you gave any good answers.
Hebrews 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
Hebrews1:8 But of the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
Hebrews1:10 And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

He is worshipped by angels and He created the World. He is God.

[Cubes]

Quote (liljon @ Mar. 02 2005,13:07)

Cubes, I don't think you gave any good answers. Hebrews 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” Hebrews1:8 But of the Son He says:  “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. Hebrews1:10 And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. He is worshipped by angels and He created the World. He is God.

Hi liljon,

In a way, we seem to be having two conversations now. I do not dispute that these things are spoken of Jesus and that they are true indeed. But that is only half of it. All scripture must be reconciled and unbroken. Therefore:

Question: Is Jesus the same as the Father then?
Answer: No.
Question: Does Jesus have a God whom he worships and looks up to?
Answer: Yes.
Question: Is Jesus therefore the ultimate, Most High God?
Answer: No.

How do we make sense of the scriptures that you posted, and the ones I posted from Revelations? They speak of the same person. Subsequently, all those things are true of him, and it says he is an awesome God to be honored and glorified with the Father, but that the Father is the God of all, the one worshipped in Revelations 5:14.

***I am learning about worship and will go where the Word leads.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
I think you will find that liljon dances to the old trinitarian two step.

“He is and he isn't
They are the same and they are different
Of course you can't understand it
You can't understand God
It is all a mystery”

That way you can seem to have your cake and eat it too.
Tradition rules over revelation and you do not need to prove any beliefs but you can use scripture to support them.
It is an easily defended theological position because we cannot know anything as true as all is mysterious.
It is a comforting thought too that there is nothing new to be learned about God so you don't need to take any risks or venture outside the stockade.

Is it what God wants? no

He wants us to seek, ask and knock.

He wants us to know Him and His Son and the work of His Spirit. He wants us to seek knowledge and to build on the basis of the Word and not doctrine. He wants us to rightly divide truth and to love His Word.

And it all falls over because the Son of God has a separate existance. It is the work of false teachers, who continue to hold sway with those on the broad path, to say that the Son of God is the same as the Father.

2Peter 2
” But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you,who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, EVEN DENYING THE MASTER who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.”

[Cubes]

Yes, Nick. I am beginning to wonder whether anyone can be “convinced” using the scriptures or is it something one has to see on one's own?

It seems evident and simple enough but most trinitarians don't seem to see it. How can one say he believes in Jesus and refuse Jesus' own testimony of himself???

I think part of the problem lies in the fact that so many great people of the faith, might have been trinitarians. Eg: The Wesleys, Billy Graham, etc.

[NickHassan]

Yes cubes,
It is hard. I struggled with it myself for 20 years and only was able to grasp the truth when I realised I was not alone in my doubts about the trinity. That is what brought me here and I am grateful to t8 and others for giving me the courage of my convictions on this matter.

[NickHassan]

ps.I think we will be surprised when we find whom God considers 'great people of the faith'. Those who do not teach what is revealed make themselves God's enemies.
“God knows those who are His”

[liljon]

Zechariah 14:5 And the valley of My mountains shall be closed up, and the valley of the mountains shall be joined on to Jasod, and shall be blocked up as it was blocked up in the days of the earthquake, in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with Him.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Jesus is the LORD our God
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
1 Cor 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all those who in every place are calling on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
We call on his name because he is the LORD
Jesus has a God because he God/Man
16 And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, was justified in the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the Gentiles, was believed on in the world, and was received up in glory.
It is clear from scripture that Jesus is YHWH
Isaiah 44:24 24 Thus says the Lord that redeems you, and who formed you from the womb: I am the Lord that performs all things; I stretched out the heaven alone, and established the earth.

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2005,20:13)

Yes cubes, It is hard. I struggled with it myself for 20 years and only was able to grasp the truth when I realised I was not alone in my doubts about the trinity. That is what brought me here and I am grateful to t8 and others for giving me the courage of my convictions on this matter.

Looking back on your struggle, would you say you struggled mostly with tradition and habit or over the word of God. Or both?

In my case, I have grown to know Jesus more. I didn't realize he was so involved in our creation and the creation of the universe. And of course, my latest stint was questioning whether that makes him YHWH, until t8 brought Psalm 2:7 to my attention.

[NickHassan]

hi cubes,
I was born again of the Spirit 25 yrs ago and, like Cornelius, recieved baptism in the name of Jesus later. I gradually awoke to realise the very deep beauty and harmony of the Word of God that I had loved since a schoolboy when a teacher read Acts to us as religious teaching.

I studied it on my own writing notes in margins and collecting my favourite jewels. I also read a lot on the work of the Spirit and the books of Derek Prince and others.

Comparison of traditional teachings with The Word soon showed me that they were clay compared with gold. Habit also quickly faded into obscurity but learning to be different in my beliefs and cope with lonliness and natural insecurity were harder.

I was a quiet and timid type who was not used to standing alone and being mocked for my beliefs. I kept them to myself as others suggested I was the rebel and it is easy to listen to them and self doubt rather than your heart at times.

No one else in my large and extended family shared my views for years. If you are not sure of your beliefs then it seems like disloyalty to God and risking the faith of others to share those views.

I found it was worth it though.

I felt like the blind man whom Jesus healed and went then back to reassure him he was on the right track for speaking the truth about his healing.

You have to know what it is to be weak and follow him to regain real strength and faith.

[Cubes]

Quote (liljon @ Mar. 02 2005,21:08)

Zechariah 14:5  And the valley of My mountains shall be closed up, and the valley of the mountains shall be joined on to Jasod, and shall be blocked up as it was blocked up in the days of the earthquake, in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with Him. 1 Thessalonians 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Hi liljon,

From the scriptures that you posted, do you see that 1 Thes. 3:13 says that there is a God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ? Two different people.

1 Thes 3:11 Now may our God and Father himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you.
1 Thes 3:12 And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you,
1 Thes 3:13 so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

YHWH is not the Jesus according to Psalm 2:7.

[NickHassan]

Hi liljon,
The verse in 1 Tim 3.16 is worth comparing a few translations…only the KJV based versions and one or two others say
” ..God was manifested in the flesh…”
Besides we know from Coll 2.19 that in Yeshua “the fullness of deity dwelled”

If God dwelled IN Yeshua then he cannot BE what he dwelled in could He?

So, then, God did reveal Himself in Yeshua through His Spirit which manifested every aspect of God's nature and power in Yeshua.

[Author]

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