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Quote (david @ Nov. 11 2007,19:26) Quote I am beginning to let go of some of the teachings of the Bible. This sounds heretical, blasphemous even, Yes, it does.
Hopefully, she means she is letting go of her previous interpretations not of the scriptures themselves.Quote (david @ Nov. 11 2007,19:26) Quote I am beginning to let go of some of the teachings of the Bible. This sounds heretical, blasphemous even, Yes, it does.
Surely that statement is not sacrelige, or blasphemous.
We have all let go of many of the teachings of the bible.We no longer keep our slaves the way the laws of the bible dictate. We no longer burn animal offerings, or deny handicapped people entrance to the temples (churches).
Hopefully nonoe of us still kill people who worship other Gods.Even God told us through Isaiah that He did not command many of the things written. They came from the lying pen of the scribes.
No, I don't think that letting go of some of the teachings of the bible is heretical or blasphemous.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 12 2007,02:09) Quote (david @ Nov. 11 2007,19:26) Quote I am beginning to let go of some of the teachings of the Bible. This sounds heretical, blasphemous even, Yes, it does.
Surely that statement is not sacrelige, or blasphemous.
We have all let go of many of the teachings of the bible.We no longer keep our slaves the way the laws of the bible dictate. We no longer burn animal offerings, or deny handicapped people entrance to the temples (churches).
Hopefully nonoe of us still kill people who worship other Gods.Even God told us through Isaiah that He did not command many of the things written. They came from the lying pen of the scribes.
No, I don't think that letting go of some of the teachings of the bible is heretical or blasphemous.
Tim
Me three…well said TimFor those whom religion has become their means of making sense of the world, and for those who are bound to a denomination, even contemplating letting go of doctrine is unthinkable. David, I presume you are one of these? I understand this full well because it is where I have come from. It is my heritage and my history. I do not deny what I once was – bound to a version of the “truth”. Bound by doctrine, denominations and definitions.
I'm breaking free from all of that. I don't expect to receive approval, although I appreciate the benefit of the doubt that I have from Morning Star, Tim and Charity (thank you brother's and sister's). I want to be free to think of God, worship God, and see God the way I was intended to from the beginning…..without orthodoxy, and without definitions; no comittment to creeds or churches. Only to my fellow neighbor, for whom I am “bound” to love like I do myself. In this way, the unbeliever is as much my brother as the believer.
We have our “camps”, don't we? But when we agree that loving God, and loving one another is all we are really commanded to do, there is a freedom to let go of the rest. I guess that is all I really meant.
Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 12 2007,02:09) Quote (david @ Nov. 11 2007,19:26) Quote I am beginning to let go of some of the teachings of the Bible. This sounds heretical, blasphemous even, Yes, it does.
Surely that statement is not sacrelige, or blasphemous.
We have all let go of many of the teachings of the bible.We no longer keep our slaves the way the laws of the bible dictate. We no longer burn animal offerings, or deny handicapped people entrance to the temples (churches).
Hopefully nonoe of us still kill people who worship other Gods.Even God told us through Isaiah that He did not command many of the things written. They came from the lying pen of the scribes.
No, I don't think that letting go of some of the teachings of the bible is heretical or blasphemous.
Tim
Does Isaiah give criteria for what to accept and what to reject? Why reject killing but not creationism?Stuart
No Stu, Isaiah nor Jerimiah make it clear what to accept and what to reject. But to me it is clear that some of what Moses said that God commanded was suspect.
Jer 7:22 “For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Jer 7:23 “But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.'Moses said that God commanded all of these burnt offerings.
Maybe Moses just wanted to be sure that he had barbequed ram each week for him and his family. I don't know.
Moses said that they even had to offer wine to go with it.
I like wine with my barbeque ribs too.Isa 1:11 “What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?” Says the LORD. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle; And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
Isa 1:12 “When you come to appear before Me, Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
Isa 1:13 “Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies– I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
Isa 1:14 “I hate your new moon {festivals} and your appointed feasts, They have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing {them.}If God never changes then He must have always felt this way.
Why did Moses say that He wanted all of this to begin with?My pastor admonishes that you can't reject even one word of the bible or you won't know what to reject and what to accept. So you must believe that every word is the inspired word of God. Believing that way forces me to defend statements that I consider absurd. I prefer to believe that the bible is a good book that contains some of the true words of God and some of the ramblings of man. It is up to each of us to descern which is which with the help of God.
I guess that I still believe that God inspired some men to write about Him. And some of what they wrote made it's way into the bible. But I believe that God did not tell them every word to write.
And I also don't believe that God inspired the people that officially cannonized what we today call our Holy Bible.
Otherwise why would we have added to, and subtracted from, so much of it?Forgive my ramblings. If I said anything too stupid, it is because I did not sleep well last night.
Thank you Stu for the question. Please don't confirm the “too stupid” part.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 13 2007,00:21) I prefer to believe that the bible is a good book that contains some of the true words of God and some of the ramblings of man. It is up to each of us to descern which is which with the help of God.
Wise words for someone who hasn't had enough sleep!
To have faith that the Spirit teaches us regardless of our flawed written word…..well, that is true faith in every sense of the word. I pray for more faith.
God bless you, Tim. And I hope you rest easy tonight.
Love, MandyQuote David, I presume you are one of these? I understand this full well because it is where I have come from. It is my heritage and my history. I do not deny what I once was – bound to a version of the “truth”. Bound by doctrine, denominations and definitions. I'm breaking free from all of that. I don't expect to receive approval, although I appreciate the benefit of the doubt that I have from Morning Star, Tim and Charity (thank you brother's and sister's). I want to be free to think of God, worship God, and see God the way I was intended to from the beginning.
–Not3in1
Hi Not.
The very fact that each person not belonging to a denomination has their own unique beliefs indicates that the majority of them have to be wrong. They are following men as well–themselves.
Most religious organizations have produced bad fruitage. IT IS NOT THE FACT THAT GROUPS ARE ORGANIZED THAT IS BAD. But many have promoted forms of worship that are based on false teachings and are largely ritualistic instead of providing genuine spiritual guidance; they have been misused to control the lives of people for selfish objectives; they have been overly concerned with money collections and ornate houses of worship instead of spiritual values; their members are often hypocritical.
Early Christianity was refreshing and a contrast to all of that.Nevertheless, to fulfill the Bible’s requirements, it must be organized.
Heb. 10:24, 25: “Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near.” (Compare Rom 1:1,2)
(To carry out this Scriptural command, there must be Christian meetings that we can attend on a consistent basis. Such an arrangement encourages us to express love toward others, not only concern about self. To where would a person direct interested ones so they could obey this command if there were no organization with regular meetings where they could gather?)
1 Cor. 1:10: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
(Such unity would never be achieved if the individuals did not meet together, benefit from the same spiritual feeding program, and respect the agency through which such instruction was provided. See also John 17:20, 21.)1 Pet. 2:17: “Have love for the whole association of brothers.”
(Does that include only those who may meet together for worship in a particular private home? Not at all; it is an international brotherhood, as shown by Galatians 2:8, 9 and 1 Corinthians 16:19.)1 Pet. 2:9, 17: “But you are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies’ of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. . . . Have love for the whole association of brothers.” (An association of people whose efforts are directed to accomplish a particular work is an organization.)
Matt. 24:14; 28:19,20: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them . . . teaching them.”
(For all nations to be given the opportunity to hear that good news, the preaching must be carried out in an orderly way, with suitable oversight. How would this be accomplished without organization? When Jesus trained his early disciples for this work, He did not simply tell each one to go wherever he desired and to share his faith in whatever way he chose. He trained them, gave them instructions and sent them out in an organized manner. See Luke 8:1; 9:1-6; 10:1-16.)1 Cor. 14:33, 40: “God is a God, not of disorder, but of peace. . . . Let all things take place decently and by arrangement.” (The apostle Paul is here discussing orderly procedure at congregation meetings. Applying this inspired counsel requires respect for organization.)
Are those who are faithful servants of God simply individuals who are scattered in the various churches of Christendom?
2 Cor. 6:15-18: “What portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? . . . ‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’; ‘and I will take you in.’ ‘And I shall be a father to you, and you will be sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah the Almighty.”
(Is a person really a faithful servant of God if he continues to share in worship with those who show by their way of life that they really are unbelievers?)1 Cor. 1:10: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
(Such unity does not exist among the varied churches of Christendom.)John 10:16: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”
(Since Jesus would bring such ones into “one flock,” is it not obvious that they could not be scattered in Christendom’s religions?)There is a thread that deals with this subject. I think it's called “organized religion” or “religion”. Not sure.
Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2007,11:17) The very fact that each person not belonging to a denomination has their own unique beliefs indicates that the majority of them have to be wrong. They are following men as well–themselves.
Wrong on somethings david, but they could be people that embrace truth when it is revealed. Joining any denomination means that the truth is already defined and that you need to align yourself to it. This is a form of trusting in man.If a person brings a teaching whether he is of a denomination or not, then a believer is free to listen and judge for themselves by searching scripture to see if it is so.
Jesus, Paul, John, and Peter didn't belong to a denomination. They were neither Catholic, Protestant, JW, or Mormon.
We should be like them.
It must also be said that we are at different levels of maturity and knowledge of the truth.
But to grow, we need to free, and not constrained by a denomination which are in form like a prison that you are not allowed to leave.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 13 2007,12:27) Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2007,11:17) The very fact that each person not belonging to a denomination has their own unique beliefs indicates that the majority of them have to be wrong. They are following men as well–themselves.
Wrong on somethings david, but they could be people that embrace truth when it is revealed. Joining any denomination means that the truth is already defined and that you need to align yourself to it. This is a form of trusting in man.If a person brings a teaching whether he is of a denomination or not, then a believer is free to listen and judge for themselves by searching scripture to see if it is so.
Jesus, Paul, John, and Peter didn't belong to a denomination. They were neither Catholic, Protestant, JW, or Mormon.
We should be like them.
It must also be said that we are at different levels of maturity and knowledge of the truth.
But to grow, we need to free, and not constrained by a denomination which are in form like a prison that you are not allowed to leave.
No t8 they were the body of Christ. No names but still they communed together. Didn't they have congregations in different places?What did the first church believe and teach. And where is that church today. Isn't that what we are looking for?
The only thing I can say for sure is they kept the commandments of God and faith in Jesus. Did the apostles teach that God was a trinity? What did they tell the Gentiles they could and could not do? What was acceptable and what was not.
Well John said Not to let those whop do not believe in the doctrine of Christ in your house.
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.Are the above scriptures “TEACHINGS” of the apostle John?
Should we heed what the apostle says?
NO! Then why even read the book?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 12 2007,18:39) For those whom religion has become their means of making sense of the world, and for those who are bound to a denomination, even contemplating letting go of doctrine is unthinkable. David, I presume you are one of these? I understand this full well because it is where I have come from. It is my heritage and my history. I do not deny what I once was – bound to a version of the “truth”. Bound by doctrine, denominations and definitions. I'm breaking free from all of that. I don't expect to receive approval, although I appreciate the benefit of the doubt that I have from Morning Star, Tim and Charity (thank you brother's and sister's). I want to be free to think of God, worship God, and see God the way I was intended to from the beginning…..without orthodoxy, and without definitions; no comittment to creeds or churches. Only to my fellow neighbor, for whom I am “bound” to love like I do myself. In this way, the unbeliever is as much my brother as the believer.
We have our “camps”, don't we? But when we agree that loving God, and loving one another is all we are really commanded to do, there is a freedom to let go of the rest. I guess that is all I really meant.
I agree. But isn't that why we are here because we have left the denomination(s) in search of truth? Instead we defend what we believe is true.The last day saints will be keeping the commandments of God and have faith in Jesus.
I believe the commandments of God are His ten commandments that He wrote. And I have faith that Jesus IS the Messiah that fulfilled the laws concerning Himself.
To me this is the basic teachings of the church and IS necessary.
Did the apostles teach the trinity? I see NO scripture saying such. Are we to gather on the first day instead of the seventh day? I see no scriptures saying that the sabbath was changed NOR done away with.
What did the apostles teach? What did Jesus teach? After we have these answers then we will have the truth.
But the basic foundation of the church is to keep his commandments and faith in Jesus. Anything other than starting on the true foundation would be a waste of time. Starting again
on the teaching of men ending back where we started.900 pages and what was accomplished?
Round and round we go we never stop because nobody KNOWS!
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 13 2007,12:27) Quote (david @ Nov. 13 2007,11:17) The very fact that each person not belonging to a denomination has their own unique beliefs indicates that the majority of them have to be wrong. They are following men as well–themselves.
Wrong on somethings david, but they could be people that embrace truth when it is revealed. Joining any denomination means that the truth is already defined and that you need to align yourself to it. This is a form of trusting in man.If a person brings a teaching whether he is of a denomination or not, then a believer is free to listen and judge for themselves by searching scripture to see if it is so.
Jesus, Paul, John, and Peter didn't belong to a denomination. They were neither Catholic, Protestant, JW, or Mormon.
We should be like them.
It must also be said that we are at different levels of maturity and knowledge of the truth.
But to grow, we need to free, and not constrained by a denomination which are in form like a prison that you are not allowed to leave.
Hi t8:I agree. It was not God's will that the church be divided into our various denominations. I believe that this what the Apostle Paul is indicating by 1 Co. 3.
God Bless
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 13 2007,12:27) But to grow, we need to free, and not constrained by a denomination which are in form like a prison that you are not allowed to leave.
Oh, my goodness! How profound and true this is! Thank you, t8.t8
++” Joining any denomination means that the truth is already defined and that you need to align yourself to it. This is a form of trusting in man. If a person brings a teaching whether he is of a denomination or not, then a believer is free to listen and judge for themselves by searching scripture to see if it is so.
Here you put on the straightjacket imposed by scripture. What of the freedom to be had outside scripture?
++”It must also be said that we are at different levels of maturity and knowledge of the truth.
Does this, the fact that revelation is different for different people, explain why there are seemingly
2 billion christian churches, one inside each believer’s head?Stuart
Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 13 2007,10:52) Tim, I'm curious – what type of church do you attend?
Hi Not3in1,My church is a multidenominational church (that for some strange reason is called non-denominational) in a small community that can not support more than one church.
The pastor is an evangelical pastor who believes in hell but does not preach it. He also believes in many other things that I can not embrace, and I make my beliefs clear to him.
He nonetheless holds me as one of his close friends and no doubt prays daily that God will eventually straighten me out.
Tim
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 13 2007,22:46) t8 ++” Joining any denomination means that the truth is already defined and that you need to align yourself to it. This is a form of trusting in man. If a person brings a teaching whether he is of a denomination or not, then a believer is free to listen and judge for themselves by searching scripture to see if it is so.
Here you put on the straightjacket imposed by scripture. What of the freedom to be had outside scripture?
++”It must also be said that we are at different levels of maturity and knowledge of the truth.
Does this, the fact that revelation is different for different people, explain why there are seemingly
2 billion christian churches, one inside each believer’s head?Stuart
Did the first church trust man? The apostles, elders, bishops, pastors, teachers etc.Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:But then to Stu their is NO GOD! So what difference does it make to STU?
Hi Tim,
I'm sorry, now I remember you telling me this once before. Well, I commend you for attending that body and remaining faithful even tho you don't embrace it all. I mean, can we ever embrace everything that comes from organized religion?
I think t8 is correct in his reasoning that we do not have to belong to any denomination or church. When Jesus walked this earth, he was the temple brought to us. We are now the church. You and me – today – talking and encouraging one another.
It's funny, because I know David thinks there needs to be this order of pastor's, teacher's and so on, but I believe in a non-traditional way, we have that here. For instance, when I say Pastor – who comes to mind? When I say Teacher – who comes to mind? And so on down the line. I believe we are all here and accounted for. I praise God every day for my brother's and sister's here at HeavenNet.
Hey Tim – have a great rest of the week. I'm so glad to see you here. You have a fresh view on things……
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