- This topic is empty.
- Posts
- 942767,Nov. wrote:
[/quote]
Have you forsaken all for Christ? Do you eat sleep and drink Jesus ALL the time? If you are a saint then the answer is yes. But if your answer is no then youare not a saint.Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Psa 85:8 I will hear what God Jehovah will speak; For he will speak peace “unto his people, AND to his saints”: But let them not turn again to folly.
Mis-translation?
Dan 7:27
(ASV) And the kingdom and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High: his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
(CEV) “Then the greatest kingdom of all will be given to the chosen ones of God Most High. His kingdom will be eternal, and all others will serve and obey him.”
(DRB) And that the kingdom, and power, and the greatness of the kingdom, under the whole heaven, may be given to the people of the saints of the most High: whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all kings shall serve him, and shall obey him.
(ESV) And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.'
(GNB) The power and greatness of all the kingdoms on earth will be given to the people of the Supreme God. Their royal power will never end, and all rulers on earth will serve and obey them.”
(GW) The kingdom, along with the power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven, will be given to the holy people of the Most High. Their kingdom is eternal. All other powers will serve and obey them.”
(KJV) And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
(KJV+) And the kingdom4437 and dominion,7985 and the greatness7238 of1768 the kingdom4437 under8460 the whole3606 heaven,8065 shall be given3052 to the people5972 of the saints6922 of the most High,5946 whose kingdom4437 is an everlasting5957 kingdom,4437 and all3606 dominions7985 shall serve6399 and obey8086 him.
(KJVR) And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
(LITV) And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him.
(MKJV) And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him.
(MSG) Then the royal rule and the authority and the glory of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the people of the High God. Their royal rule will last forever. All other rulers will serve and obey them.'
Out of the different above translations of Dan 7:27 EIGHT say “people of the saints” and only 4 say something else.
“There is no such thing as people of the saints”
May be you should read the translations above.But if all are saints then who are the elect?
Everyone can't be a ruler. Who would do the work? You can't have all chiefs and no indians!
The people of the saints are those who are saved but have not been chosen to be a ruler.
Paul said of all the saints he was the least. So according to you Paul said that he (the apostle) was the least of everyone saved. Do you really believe that?
“Here we go again Krench:
“If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we way we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not him. But whoso keepeth his word in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in ought himself also so to walk even as he walked”. (1 John 1:6-10, 2:1-6)”
And sooo what? What is your point of these scriptures you gave. Everyone saved is cleansed from sin and a child of God but that doesn't make them a saint.
What did Jesus say 942? If you want to be a saint then quit your job sell everything and give it to the poor then pick up your cross and follow Jesus. Have you done that?
“If the Holy Ghost dwells within you then you are a saint, but I guess if you ain't a saint, then you just ain't”
No I aint a saint. I'm not a ruler or you? I am a child of God a citizen of the New Kingdom but not a ruler or saint.
Eight out of twelve translations say “people of the saints”
We truely live in last days when people choose translations in order tickle their ears.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts;Should I address you as Saint 942?
BTW It's more like here I go again kenrch.
Hi kenrch
You quote“Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.”
But you say
“Have you forsaken all for Christ? Do you eat sleep and drink Jesus ALL the time? If you are a saint then the answer is yes. But if your answer is no then youare not a saint.”
and
“And sooo what? What is your point of these scriptures you gave. Everyone saved is cleansed from sin and a child of God but that doesn't make them a saint.What did Jesus say 942? If you want to be a saint then quit your job sell everything and give it to the poor then pick up your cross and follow Jesus. Have you done that? “
There is a missing link here.
According to you somewhere it must say
“SAINTS ARE PERFECT”
Where is that or is it just that old catholic preconception?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 21 2006,04:47) According to you somewhere it must say
“SAINTS ARE PERFECT”
Where is that or is it just that old catholic preconception?
Who are the elect? Surely they are avove the standard born again christian. Why are their only 144k who are kings and priest? Are you going to be a king or priest? Is your walk that close?Jesus said this not me:
Mat 5:48 Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.Arer you perfect as our Father?
Have you adhered to Jesus' instruction?
“Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.”
Have you given EVERYTHING up for Christ? These are they that follow wherever the Son goes. Is that you, Nick.
Or do you want the job but not the responsibilty?I believe you are like me a born again child of God but not a ruler or are you?
Hi Krench:
The definition of saints is: holy or separate. My point of quoting the scriptures in 1 John is to show you that if the blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin when we conform to these scriptures then we are holy, and so all Christians should be saints by this definition.
My priorities are to serve my Lord out of my love for him, and I am ready to go where ever he sends me because I do love him and I love people and I would like them to be saved and not destroyed. I am not in authority at the present time, but God has shown me that He is going to place me in the positon of authority at some point in the future, but that will not make any Christian any less a saint than I. It will give me more responsiblity.
I may be under someone's authority but that does not mean that I belong to them. I belong to God. My wife my children (while they are under my care) are under my authority, and I have the responsibility of teaching them the word of God, but they do not belong to me. They belong to God.
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord”. (1 Thes. 4:-17) My understanding then is that all who are part of the body of Christ are the elect.
“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one hen of heaven to the other”. (Matt. 24:30-31)
The body of Christ are the elect. I like that! The Saints are the body of Christ! Then the people of the saints are, who?
Don't tell me it's a mistranslation. There are only a few that disagree with the KJV.
Could the people of the saints be those who are deceived but believe there is a God. Who will during the millennium come to know Jesus?
The time frame is right:
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High; and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time.
***Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall be set, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High: his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.The people of the saints are after the millennium and the white thrown judgement.
Rev 3:12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.
Rev 7:9 After these things I saw, and behold, “a great multitude”, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:14 And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God; and they serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall spread his tabernacle over them.Surely this multitude are saints. And the people of the saints are they on earth and not in the “Temple”.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God:
Rev 21:4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.1Co 15:28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.
God will be in all those on earth as He is in some today except when the new kingdom comes we will not have to deal with that flesh that wars against our being.
WHO ARE THE SAINTS?
They are those who follow Christ and come out of the Tribulation (the mark of the beast) and are priest in the Temple OF God.WHO ARE THE PEOPLE OF THE SAINTS?
Those who are “holy flesh” that are on earth. Those who come out of the Milennium.
Any thoughts?
2 PETER 3:13
“But there are new heavens AND a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.”(Compare Rev 21:1; Is 65:17; 66:22)The heavens often represent or are associated with rulership. (Dan 4:26; Acts 7:49)
The “new heavens” is the Kingdom for which Jesus taught us to pray. (Matthew 6:10)
Since God is its Source and he dwells in heaven, it is called “the kingdom of the heavens.” (Mat 7:21)
There is a new society of righteous people (a new earth) and there is a new government (new heavens) that will rule over mankind.
It seems there are two groups–one making up the new heavens (new rulership, the holy ones, 144,000) and one making up the subjects, (new earth.)
As for the holy ones, the “little flock” that make up that kingdom,
PHILIPPIANS 3:20-21
“As for us, OUR CITIZENSHIP EXISTS IN THE HEAVENS . . .the Lord Jesus Christ, who WILL REFASHION OUR HUMILIATED BODY to be conformed to HIS GLORIOUS BODY . . . .”Those who make up the heavenly kingdom will need to undergo a change.
JOHN 3:3-6
“Unless anyone is BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God. . . . Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.””1 PETER 1:3,4,23
“According to [God’s] great mercy he gave us a NEW BIRTH to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading INHERITANCE. IT IS RESERVED IN THE HEAVENS FOR YOU. . . .For you have been given a NEW BIRTH, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible [reproductive] seed, through the word of [the] living and enduring God.”EPHESIANS 1:9-11
“he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, TO GATHER ALL THINGS TOGETHER again in the Christ, THE THINGS IN THE HEAVENS and THE THINGS ON THE EARTH. [Yes,] in him, in union with whom we were also assigned as heirs,”
Again, a distinction, between the things in the heavens and the things on the earth.COLOSSIANS 1:20
“and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth OR the things in the heavens.”ROMANS 8:16-17
“The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also HEIRS: heirs indeed of God, but JOINT HEIRS WITH CHRIST, provided we suffer together that we may also be GLORIFIED TOGETHER.”The joint heirs with Christ will be glorified with Christ. They are heirs of the heavenly kingdom with Christ. But, all need not make up that kingdom to benefit from it.
HEBREWS 3:1
“Consequently, holy brothers, PARTAKERS OF THE HEAVENLY CALLING, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess—Jesus.”EPHESIANS 1:18-21
“the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is THE HOPE TO WHICH HE CALLED YOU, what the glorious riches are which he holds as an INHERITANCE FOR THE HOLY ONES, and what the surpassing greatness of his power is toward us believers. IT IS ACCORDING TO THE OPERATION of the mightiness of his strength, with which HE HAS OPERATED IN THE CASE OF THE CHRIST when he raised him up from the dead and seated him AT HIS RIGHT HAND in the HEAVENLY PLACES, far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.”
The holy ones have an inheritance. Other scriptures show plainly that it is the kingdom. A kingdom is a government. A government rules over others. Who are the others?LUKE 12:32
“Have no fear, LITTLE FLOCK, because Your Father has approved of GIVING YOU THE KINGDOM.”
Apparently, the number making up the kingdom would be little. They are described as a little flock. But, then again, only a small majority make up ones government, don't they?JOHN 10:16
““And I have OTHER SHEEP, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”Seems a distinction is made.
1 CORINTHIANS 1:2
“to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to YOU who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all who everywhere are calling upon the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:”EPHESIANS 1:1
“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, to the holy ones who are [in Eph′e·sus] and faithful ones in union with Christ Jesus:”PHILIPPIANS 1:1
“Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus, to all the holy ones in union with Christ Jesus who are in Phi·lip′pi, along with overseers and ministerial servants:”HEBREWS 6:10
“For God is not unrighteous so as to forget YOUR work and the love YOU showed for his name, in that YOU have ministered to the holy ones and continue ministering.”HEBREWS 13:24
“Give my greetings to all those who are taking the lead among YOU and to all the holy ones. Those in Italy send YOU their greetings.”
(ANOTHER DISTINCITION)REVELATION 11:18
“But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.””Hi david,
You say
“It seems there are two groups–one making up the new heavens (new rulership, the holy ones, 144,000) and one making up the subjects, (new earth.)”It may seem so to you but where else are men called heaven and earth in scripture??
Quote It may seem so to you but where else are men called heaven and earth in scripture??
Do you suggest that God is going to destroy and replace this earth with a new earth, or heaven, with a new heaven?I don't know. What do you make of the initial fulfillment of these scriptures?
(Is 65:17; 66:22)Hi david,
I believe the new earth is a renovated, renewed earth as man[the meek] will inherit the earth.Is not what makes the earth a new earth primarily the removal of the wicked. It will be a completely different place because the people on it will be different. It will be a new earth, not because Jehovah replaced it.
The new moon, isn't a new different moon, it's a new phase of the moon.
I think what makes the earth a new earth is the people.
As I said, “The heavens often represent or are associated with rulership. (Dan 4:26; Acts 7:49)”
The literal heavens with the stars and moon don't need to be made new. The spiritual heavens will have a new system of rulership, the kingdom, made up of the holy ones who receive the kingdom.You think the new earth is a renewed earth with the meek on it.
What do you think “new heavens” means?Hi david,
I think your assumptions are unwarranted scripturally.
Rev 21
” 1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. “
The surface of the earth will have been burnt to a crisp and there is no longer any sea. The heavens I would say relates not to heaven but the atmosphere. Flesh and blood needs air but do those in imperishable bodies?2Peter 3
” 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? “Isaiah likened the wicked people of earth, the masses alienated from God, to “the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire.” (Isa 57:20) At Revelation 17:1, 15 the “waters” on which Babylon the Great “sits” are said to mean “peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.” Isaiah further prophesied to God’s “woman” Zion: “Because to you the wealthiness of the sea will direct itself; the very resources of the nations will come to you.” (Isa 59:20; 60:1, 5) This seems to mean the turning of many persons from among the multitudes of earth toward God’s symbolic “woman.”
Daniel described four “beasts” that came up “out of the sea” and revealed these to be symbolic of political kings or kingdoms. (Da 7:2, 3, 17, 23) Similarly, John spoke of a “wild beast ascending out of the sea,” that is, out of that vast portion of mankind that is estranged from God; and his mention, in symbolic language, of diadems and a throne again links the idea of a political organization with this beast out of “the sea.” (Re 13:1, 2) He also saw in vision the time when there would be “a new heaven and a new earth” and when “the sea,” that is, the turbulent masses of people alienated from God, would be no more.—Re 21:1.
ISAIAH 57:20
““But the wicked are like the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire.”REVELATION 17:1
“And one of the seven angels that had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying: “Come, I will show you the judgment upon the great harlot who sits on many waters,”REVELATION 17:15
“And he says to me: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.”ISAIAH 59:20
““And to Zion the Repurchaser will certainly come, and to those turning from transgression in Jacob,” is the utterance of Jehovah.”ISAIAH 60:1
““Arise, O woman, shed forth light, for your light has come and upon you the very glory of Jehovah has shone forth.”ISAIAH 60:5
“At that time you will see and certainly become radiant, and your heart will actually quiver and expand, because to you the wealthiness of the sea will direct itself; the very resources of the nations will come to you.”DANIEL 7:2-3
“Daniel was speaking up and saying: “I happened to be beholding in my visions during the night, and, see there! the four winds of the heavens were stirring up the vast sea. And four huge beasts were coming up out of the sea, each one being different from the others.”DANIEL 7:17
““‘As for these huge beasts, because they are four, there are four kings that will stand up from the earth.”DANIEL 7:23
““This is what he said, ‘As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth, that will be different from all the [other] kingdoms; and it will devour all the earth and will trample it down and crush it.”REVELATION 13:1-2
“And it stood still upon the sand of the sea. And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, and upon its horns ten diadems, but upon its heads blasphemous names. Now the wild beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were as those of a bear, and its mouth was as a lion’s mouth. And the dragon gave to [the beast] its power and its throne and great authority.”REVELATION 21:1
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more.”Anyway, I think “the sea” that is no more represents the majority of mankind, people alienated from God, who will be no more.
PROVERBS 2:21-22
“For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.”PSALM 104:5
“He has founded the earth upon its established places; It will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever.”Nick, you say there is no reason or warrent for looking at the “new earth” as people.
GENESIS 11:1
“Now all the earth continued to be of one language and of one set of words.”1 KINGS 2:1-2
“And the days of David gradually drew near for him to die; and he proceeded to command Sol′o·mon his son, saying: “I am going in the way of all the earth, and you must be strong and prove yourself to be a man.”1 CHRONICLES 16:31
“Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be joyful, And let them say among the nations, ‘Jehovah himself has become king!’”PSALM 96:1
“Sing to Jehovah a new song. Sing to Jehovah, all [YOU people of] the earth.”At Genesis 11:1, First Kings 2:1, 2, First Chronicles 16:31, Psalm 96:1, etc., the term “earth” is used in a figurative sense, referring to mankind, to human society. Might that be the case at 2 Peter 3:7, 10 and Revelation 21:1?
If these texts (2 Peter 3:7, 10 and Revelation 21:1) mean that the literal planet Earth is to be consumed by fire, then the literal heavens (the stars and other heavenly bodies) are also to be destroyed by fire. Such a literal view, however, conflicts with the assurance contained in such texts as Matthew 6:10, Psalm 37:29 and 104:5, also Proverbs 2:21, 22. Furthermore, what effect would fire have on the already intensely hot sun and stars? So the term “earth” in the above-quoted texts must be understood in a different sense.
Note that, in the context, at 2 Peter 3:5, 6 (also 2:5, 9), a parallel is drawn with the Flood of Noah’s day, in which wicked human society was destroyed, but Noah and his household, as well as the globe itself, were preserved. Likewise, at 2 Peter 3:7 it says that the ones to be destroyed are “ungodly men.” The view that “the earth” here refers to wicked human society fully agrees with the rest of the Bible, as is illustrated by the texts cited above. It is that symbolic “earth,” or wicked human society, that is “discovered”; that is, Jehovah will sear away as by fire all disguise, exposing the wickedness of ungodly human society and showing it to be worthy of complete destruction. That wicked society of humans is also “the first earth,” referred to at Revelation 21:1 (KJ).
Consistently, Jesus’ expression at Luke 21:33 (“heaven and earth will pass away, but . . . ”) must be understood in the light of the parallel statement at Luke 16:17 (“it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than . . . ”), both of which simply emphasize the impossibility of the situations presented.—See also Matthew 5:18.
Anyway, in addition to the masses of mankind alienated from God, there are also:
Persons lacking faith. A person who lacks faith, having doubts when he prays to God, is likened by the disciple James to “a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about.” He does not recognize or appreciate God’s fine qualities of generosity and loving-kindness. “Let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from Jehovah; he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways,” James declares.—Jas 1:5-8.Immoral men. James’ brother Jude warns his fellow Christians of the great danger from wicked men who slip into the congregation with the purpose of bringing in moral defilement. He calls them “wild waves of the sea that foam up their own causes for shame.” (Jude 4-13) Jude may have had in mind an earlier expression of Isaiah (57:20) and may be figuratively describing such ones’ passionate, reckless disregard for God’s laws and their rushing against the divinely constituted moral barriers in their degraded, lustful course. As Cook’s Commentary on Jude 13 remarks: “They cast forth to public view the mire and dirt of th
eir excesses . . . So these men foam out their own acts of shame, and cast them forth for all men to see, and so to blame the Church for the ill-deeds of these professors.” Another commentator says: “What they impart is as unsubstantial and valueless as the foam of the ocean waves, and the result is in fact a proclamation of their own shame.”—Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament, 1974; compare Peter’s description of such men at 2Pe 2:10-22.Quote Hi david,
No. But show me it does and I will be convinced- in the earth thread..
Sorry, I got this after I posted. You're right. This is the wrong thread. I think we've had this conversation before though.Hi david,
No. Not convinced.
Sea does not symbolise evil as far as I can read but it has characteristics that can be likened to foolish people.Jas 1
” 6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. “Jude
” 13Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.”Yes, foolish people lacking faith is one way that the waves of the sea. But in the other scriptures, the masses of mankind that seem to be alienated from God are also represented by the sea.
We know wicked people will be done away with.
Rev says the sea will be no more.Does that mean that the meek who inherit the earth will have no more seas to look at?
Hi david,
The sea divides man into countries and peoples and frustrates easy travel. Christ unifies the earth.“Here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart.” (Isaiah 65:17)
I'm not sure how you take this scripture, but I believe that this prophecy was initially fulfilled when the Jewish remnant was restored to Jerusalem.
What constituted the “new heavens” at that time? The governorship of Zerubbabel supported by High Priest Joshua and centered at Jerusalem. The restored Jewish remnant made up “a new earth,” a cleansed society that submitted to such rulership and helped to reestablish pure worship in the land. (Ezra 5:1, 2) The joy of that restoration eclipsed all previous suffering; the former distresses were not even called to mind.—Psalm 126:1, 2.
You realize, of course, that they returned to a homeland on the same planet, not somewhere else in the universe. That realization can help us to see what Isaiah meant by new heavens and a new earth.
In the Bible, “earth” does not always refer to our globe. For instance, Psalm 96:1 says literally: ‘Sing to Jehovah, all the earth.’ We know that our planet—the terra firma and the vast oceans—cannot sing. People sing. Yes, Psalm 96:1 is referring to the people on the earth.
(The New English Bible renders Psalm 96:1: “Sing to the LORD, all men on earth.” The Contemporary English Version reads: “Everyone on this earth, sing praises to the LORD.” This accords with the understanding that by “new earth” Isaiah was referring to God’s people in their land.)The Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by M’Clintock and Strong, states: “Wherever the scene of a prophetic vision is laid, heaven signifies . . . the whole assembly of the ruling powers . . . being over and ruling the subjects, as the natural heaven stands over and rules the earth.” As to the combination phrase “heaven and earth,” the Cyclopædia explains that ‘in prophetic language the phrase signifies the political condition of persons of different ranks. The heaven is the sovereignty; the earth is the peasantry, men who are ruled by superiors.’
When the Jews returned to their homeland, they gained what might be called a new system of things. There was a new ruling body. Zerubbabel, a descendant of King David, was governor, and Joshua was high priest. (Haggai 1:1, 12; 2:21; Zechariah 6:11) These constituted “new heavens.” Over what? The “new heavens” were over “a new earth,” the cleansed society of people who were back in their land in order to rebuild Jerusalem and its temple for worshiping Jehovah. Hence, in this real sense, there were new heavens and a new earth in the fulfillment involving the Jews at that time.
Bringing us back to the reason we're discussing this, the holy ones, who are a distinct group who rule in the kingdom and are heirs to the kingdom:
Similarly, when Revelation and I believe 1 Peter 3:13? refer to a new heaven and a new earth, I believe it is referring to those who rule (one group) and those who are their subjects (another group)
Quote Hi david,
The sea divides man into countries and peoples and frustrates easy travel. Christ unifies the earth.
So you're saying there will literally be no sea in the future. When Adam and Eve were told to multiply and fill the earth, while living in paradise conditions, there were seas, and oceans, were there not?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
