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Hi kenrch,
If we spend time searching out ways to make ourselves perfect we are wasting our own time and God's and it shows that we do not yet trust the saving power of Christ within us.We cannot save ourselves.
We can do nothing in our own strength.
His yoke is easy.Mk 8
” 34And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.35For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?”
Mt 11
” 28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
Zech 4
” 6Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. “Phil 4
” 13I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. “Jn 15
” 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. “Ps 46
” 10Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth. “Heb 4
” 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his”Hi St. Nick and fellow brother,
Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
“Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:”
..unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the son of God…unto the measure of the stature of the “fulness” of Christ.
That's pretty high, the fulness of Christ. I know I'm saved but I'm certainly not to the fulness of Christ.Are the saints the elect? Yes? Are the saints the 144k? For sure! Did Paul say he was the Least of all the saved or of the apostles?
Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach unto the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
This much I do know their is rank. Paul says the “least of the saints” so there are saints and then higher saints, rank among the ranked if you will. But I don't believe Paul was saying that he is the least among the saved. Do you?
Hi seekingtruth,
When we see Him we will be like Him. I am confused, we have talked about saints on another tread and through PM but are you saying you believe that the 144k are the saints through out the ages? I need to understand better (of course we should probably move to your saints thread).
No I'm saying that in the millennium the 144k are the kings and priest. Twelve thousand from each tribe. To my knowledge scripture doesn't put a number on how many saints there are until Revelation.
Psa 16:3 As for the saints that are in the earth, They are “the excellent” in whom is all my delight.
Psa 85:8 I will hear what God Jehovah will speak; For he will speak peace “unto his people, AND to his saints”: But let them not turn again to folly.
Their are two classes of people in this scripture “Unto His people” AND to His saints”. I would have to say that the people here are the people of His saints. What do you think?
Psa 89:19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy saints, And saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.
Psa 149:4 For Jehovah taketh pleasure in his people: He will beautify the meek with salvation.
Psa 149:5 Let the saints exult in glory: Let them sing for joy upon their beds.Dan 7:18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Dan 7:22 until the ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High: his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Maybe it's time to end this thing no one seems to have an answer. Who are the people of the saints?
Afraid I can't help you. The scripture does seem to indicate there are groups of people who are saved but excluded from the heading of saint. It seems that most of the time that scripture excludes someone from the saint group it is those in leadership positions, contradicting my earlier post. in one case I found it stated “that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great”. It would seem that “them that fear thy name” is a separate group which may be the people of the saints (but who they are I'm unsure). One point I'm not sure I agree with you on is the “standard” to be a saint. what scriptures are you using to establish the requirements (that's not covered with our transformation at salvation).
Hi Kenrch. What exactly is your question. And what scripture are you referring to in the people of the saints?
david
Quote (david @ Nov. 11 2006,18:18) Hi Kenrch. What exactly is your question. And what scripture are you referring to in the people of the saints? david
Hi david,I'm looking for a scriptural answer to who are the “people of the saints”. Which leads to just who are the elect? We have a description of the 144K.
Hey didn't you say that we can and it is scriptural to ask the saints to pray for us. But you are not talking about the dead ones are you?
Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 11 2006,15:27) Afraid I can't help you. The scripture does seem to indicate there are groups of people who are saved but excluded from the heading of saint. It seems that most of the time that scripture excludes someone from the saint group it is those in leadership positions, contradicting my earlier post. in one case I found it stated “that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great”. It would seem that “them that fear thy name” is a separate group which may be the people of the saints (but who they are I'm unsure). One point I'm not sure I agree with you on is the “standard” to be a saint. what scriptures are you using to establish the requirements (that's not covered with our transformation at salvation).
Seems that way to me also. You have saints, people of the saints.Standard of the saints?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.If you want to be more than just saved then sell everything deny yourself and follow Jesus.
942 pointed out that the young ruler broke the first commandment no gods before the Lord thy God. I think Jesus was just quoting for an example of the Ten Commandments.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet?
The young ruler thought he was keeping all the cammandments. Again Jesuse said Hey if you want to be more give up your treasure and you will have treasure in heaven.
What does anyone think of Mother Thersia (is that spelled right).
Hi kenrch,
You say
“If you want to be more than just saved then sell everything deny yourself and follow Jesus.”Matt 20
” 1″For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
2″When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard.3″And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place;
4and to those he said, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.' And so they went.
5″Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing.
6″And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, 'Why have you been standing here idle all day long?'
7″They said to him, 'Because no one hired us.' He said to them, 'You go into the vineyard too.'
8″Whe evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.'
9″When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius.
10″When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius.
11″When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner,
12saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.'
13″But he answered and said to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius?
14'Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.
15'Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?'
16″So the last shall be first, and the first last.”
You cannot improve on your salvation. Rather if you want more responsibility given you in the millenial kingdom produce an investment on what God has given you.
Lk 19
” 13And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.14But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25(And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.”
Quote Hi david, I'm looking for a scriptural answer to who are the “people of the saints”. Which leads to just who are the elect? We have a description of the 144K.
Hey didn't you say that we can and it is scriptural to ask the saints to pray for us. But you are not talking about the dead ones are you?
Which scripture are you referring to with the “people of the saints”?As far as you asking me about praying, I think that should be it's own subject or thread, since I actually like this topic and want to keep it on track.
But I will put this down:
Jesus Christ said:“You should pray like this: ‘Our Father in heaven, . . . ’” So prayers are to be addressed to the Father. Jesus also said: “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you ask for anything in my name, I will do it.” (Matt. 6:9; John 14:6, 14, JB) Thus Jesus ruled out the idea that anyone else could fill the role of intercessor. The apostle Paul added regarding Christ: “He not only died for us—he rose from the dead, and there at God’s right hand he stands and pleads for us.” ” “He is living for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him.” (Rom. 8:34; Heb. 7:25, JB) If we truly want our prayers to be heard by God, would it not be wise to approach God in the way that his Word directs?Eph. 6:18, 19, JB: “Never get tired of staying awake to pray for all the saints; and pray for me to be given an opportunity to open my mouth and speak without fear and give out the mystery of the gospel.”(Here encouragement is given to pray for the saints but not to them or through them. The New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XI, p. 670, acknowledges: “Usually in the N[ew] T[estament], all prayer, private as well as public liturgical prayer, is addressed to God the Father through Christ.”)
Rom. 15:30, JB: “I beg you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of the Spirit, to help me through my dangers by praying to God for me.” (The apostle Paul, himself a saint, asked fellow Christians who were also saints to pray for him. But notice that Paul did not address his prayers to those fellow saints, nor did their prayers on his behalf replace the personal intimacy that Paul himself enjoyed with the Father by means of prayer. Compare Ephesians 3:11, 12, 14.)Anyway, we all know, or most of us on here agree that we shouldn't pray to the holy ones (saints.) Yet, some do.
But back to the holy ones who are to inherit the kingdom. I know you've been discussing this on this thread for a while. But I don't want to go back and look through the whole thread.
Is there any way you could summarize what you believe and what you are questioning in regards to these holy ones (saints)?dave
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 11 2006,19:50) Hi kenrch,
You say
“If you want to be more than just saved then sell everything deny yourself and follow Jesus.”Matt 20
” 1″For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
2″When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard.3″And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place;
4and to those he said, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.' And so they went.
5″Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing.
6″And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, 'Why have you been standing here idle all day long?'
7″They said to him, 'Because no one hired us.' He said to them, 'You go into the vineyard too.'
8″Whe evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.'
9″When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius.
10″When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius.
11″When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner,
12saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.'
13″But he answered and said to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius?
14'Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.
15'Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?'
16″So the last shall be first, and the first last.”
You cannot improve on your salvation. Rather if you want more responsibility given you in the millenial kingdom produce an investment on what God has given you.
Lk 19
” 13And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.14But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25(And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.”
Hi nick,yes I know the first will be last and last will be first. Depends when you're called doesn't it. The Jews were choosen first but they will be called last. Besides didn't the labours do the same type of work? When you are called you do all what you can do, it really isn't your fault when you were called you did what you could in the amount of time you had. You did the same type of work but did less because you did not work at it as long.
david,Nov. wrote:Quote
But back to the holy ones who are to inherit the kingdom. I know you've been discussing this on this thread for a while. But I don't want to go back and look through the whole thread.
Is there any way you could summarize what you believe and what you are questioning in regards to these holy ones (saints)?
Ummmmmm. Ok As I said this has been on my back nurner for some time and for some reason it has moved to the front burner. Dan. 7:27 just sticks in my head “people of the saints” then I had a Pastor calling everyone in the church saints. Well one and one doesn't make two when you are not counting the same thing. In other words who are the saints and who are the people of the saints. Everyone gives scripture that to me most of the time is speaking of salvation or is so general that you can't say who the scripture is speaking of. Paul said that he was the least of all the saints!! Is Paul saying that he “Paul the apostle” was the least of all who are saved?To me not everyone is a saint, an elect one, or one of the 144k. Someone has to be the people of the saints.
This IN MY OPINION is truth.
DANIEL 7:22
“until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.”So we see that the holy ones receive the kingdom. This is stated several times I believe.
Dan 7:27 speaks of the kingdom being given to the “people of the saints [holy ones]” in your Bible.
Mine simply says that it was “given to the people who are the holy ones.”Giving the kingdom to the people of the saints could just mean what it says. The saints are people afterall.
If I said “The people of the government” do I mean that there are people “of” the government or do I mean that the government is people and I am referring to those people, the people of the government?Since we know from many other scriptures that the holy ones receive the kingdom, I think the scripture you are looking at should be understood the second way.
But I fully agree: Not everyone is a saint or holy one. The word “holy” simply means “clean.” The holy ones are clean.
Quote In other words who are the saints and who are the people of the saints.
Based on the other scriptures that speak of the holy ones and the holy ones receiving the kingdom, I think it should be clear that the saints are people and that the people of the saints are the saints, who are people.Quote Paul said that he was the least of all the saints!! Is Paul saying that he “Paul the apostle” was the least of all who are saved?
Perhaps he was being humble or thinking about all the terrible things he commited as Saul of tarsus. And perhaps that plagues him and he truly feels like the least. We should all be so humble.david
david,Nov. wrote:[/quote]
Psa 85:8 I will hear what God Jehovah will speak; For he will speak peace “unto his people, AND to his saints”: But let them not turn again to folly.Here we clearly have two class of people “His people AND His Saints.
Dan 7:22 until the ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, “and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom”.The saints “possess the kingdom” they are the rulers (kings and priest) of the kingdom.
Psa 85:8 I will hear what God Jehovah will speak; For he will speak peace “unto his people, AND to his saints”: But let them not turn again to folly.
Jehovah will speak peace to His people and the rulers (saints) of the New Kingdom.
If it were anyother way wouldn't it read He will speak peace to His people the saints.“Giving the kingdom to the people of the saints could just mean what it says.”
If it means what it says then their are people OF the saints (holy ones) and not the saints (holy ones) of the saints (holy ones). People OF the saints are as you say the people of the New Kingdom (government) citizens of the Kingdom of God.This is not to be taken lightly not just anyone will be allowed in the New Kingdom. Only what we have that is clean will enter into the kingdom the rest will be burned up.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell.
If as you say that the saints are the same as the people of the saints (I disagree) then I am a saint. Am I totally clean as Christ NO! I have been brought out of darkness into His marvelous light does that make me a saint?
I am saved I'm already am a citizen of the New Kingdom. But am I a ruler. Who knows? So you better treat me right LOL!
Hi kenrch,
Do all the saved rule with Christ?
2Tim 2
” 11Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.”No. Only those who endure.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 12 2006,17:58) Hi kenrch,
Do all the saved rule with Christ?
2Tim 2
” 11Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.”No. Only those who endure.
No. Only those who endure.Only those who endure rule and the others are their people. Only the cream of the crop will rule. Only those who are 100% clean…those who follow Christ where ever He goes. Like the 144K Rev. Ch. 14.
I'm not 100% clean are you?
Hi kenrch,
Where does it say anything about anyone being perfect in 2 Tim?
Those who endure are no more perfect than any other saved sinner, just enduring.Quote If as you say that the saints are the same as the people of the saints (I disagree) then I am a saint.
I'm definitely not saying that. I was only looking at the one scripture (dan 2:27 I think, which speaks of these people receiving the kingdom. Since all the other scriptures that speak of ones receiving the kingdom are the “holy ones,” that made sense to me.
But I definitley agree that there would seem to be two groups–one that receives rulership and judging power and one that benefits from this reign of Christ and his brothers.Quote I am saved I'm already am a citizen of the New Kingdom. But am I a ruler. Who knows? So you better treat me right
Yes, Jesus did say that how we treated his brothers would be a life or death thing. And as you point out, there is a difference between being a citizen of a kingdom and a ruler in that same kingdom.ROMANS 1:7
“to all those who are in Rome as God’s beloved ones, CALLED TO BE HOLY ONES.”HEBREWS 3:1
“Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly CALLING…”PHILIPPIANS 3:14
“I am pursuing down toward the goal for the prize of the UPWARD CALL of God by means of Christ Jesus.”I believe that the holy ones have an “upward call,” a “heavenly calling.”
And I believe that they are called to make up and rule with Christ in his “heavenly kingdom.”1 THESSALONIANS 2:12
“to the end that YOU should go on walking worthily of God who is calling YOU to his kingdom and glory.”LUKE 22:29
“and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,”*
1 CORINTHIANS 1:2
“to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to YOU who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all who everywhere are calling upon the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:”ROMANS 12:13
“Share with the holy ones according to their needs. Follow the course of hospitality.2 CORINTHIANS 1:1
“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, and Timothy [our] brother to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, together with all the holy ones who are in all of A·cha′ia:”Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 12 2006,19:49) Hi kenrch,
Where does it say anything about anyone being perfect in 2 Tim?
Those who endure are no more perfect than any other saved sinner, just enduring.
Mat 5:48 Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye are otherwise minded, this also shall God reveal unto you:
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ Jesus, saluteth you, always striving for you in his prayers, that ye may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God.
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly AND church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, AND to God the Judge of all, AND to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 13:21 make you perfect in every good thing to do his will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Jam 1:4 And let patience have its perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, lacking in nothing.
Jam 3:2 For in many things we all stumble. If any stumbleth not in word, the same is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body also.
1Pe 5:10 And the God of all grace, who called you unto his eternal glory in Christ, after that ye have suffered a little while, shall himself perfect, establish, strengthen you.
Here we go again Krench:
“If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we way we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not him. But whoso keepeth his word in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in ought himself also so to walk even as he walked”. (1 John 1:6-10, 2:1-6)
If you have born again and are striving to obey the commandments that came from God through Jesus Christ, and if when you make a mistake, you are asking for forgiveness, then the blood of our Lord cleanses you from all unrighteousness, and keeps you in the state of holiness.
As Christians we are God's Children. I have already shown you that the scripture to which you keep referring was a mis-translation. There is no such thing as people of the saints. If the Holy Ghost dwells within you then you are a saint, but I guess if you ain't a saint, then you just ain't.
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