who are the people

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Oct. 23 2006,02:11)

Quote Dan 7:27  And the kingdom and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the  “people of the saints”    of the Most High: his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Daniel 7:27 (New International Version) “Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'” Quote I would think that their are certain ones called to have rank just as their are Archangels and angels.  It seems that the statement “people of the saints” would indicate two class of people those called “the saints” and those who are the “people of the saints”. My Bible translates it as the NIV does above.  There is no in “people of the holy ones (saints.)” DANIEL 7:27 (NWT) ““‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them.’” So I think I was confused by your question. Quote Their whole life not just on the web or every sunday but every minute they eat, drink, and LIVE Jesus.  Perhaps that's why we don't see the dead being raised and the “greater works” Jesus said we would do. While Jesus was on earth, he primarily spoke to others about God's kingdom.  Since he fortold a great preaching work or our time and commanded his disciples to do so (mat 24:14; mat 28:19,20) perhaps he meant that a similar preaching work would be accomplished on a much greater scale and time.

David,

So which translation do we decide to accept? The 144K are chosen saints which will (if not now) have rank. So aren't they the saints and we the people of those saints?

Rev 14:3 and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no lie: they are without blemish.

Surely not every Christian fits the above description.

[david]

Quote

So which translation do we decide to accept? The 144K are chosen saints which will (if not now) have rank. So aren't they the saints and we the people of those saints?

Not disagreeing with this at all.

Quote

Surely not every Christian fits the above description.

Again, I agree.

I just didn't look closely at what you were asking.

As you say, not every Christian fits that description. It's not I, but people like Nick who would disagree with what you are saying.
You'll notice the first post I gave after yours agreed with you.

david

[david]

Notice, Kenrch, this is what I said to Nick:

Quote

“So this somehow says only some are holy ones? Thus these verses apply only to those holy ones and are no interest to those who miss out!”–Nick. So, I take it you have “no interest” in the scriptures that speaks of the 144,000? No interest? Yet, “all scripture is inspired of God and beneficial.” (2 tim 3:16) I've never made it seem as though some are missing out Nick. You have made it seem that way. –Is it not God's right to allow some to have a special role? –Are you missing our or is it unfair that you weren't born an angel, or perhaps you wish you were Christ? How unfair that you are so limited. Is that how you feel? –Doesn't God have the right to let some have rulership (for our benefit i might add) while others are ONLY granted EVERLASTING LIFE IN PARADISE AMONG FELLOW WORSHIPPERS OF GOD IN PEACE. How unfair of God? You try to make it seem that way. You are wrong. It is because of His “UNDESERVED kindness” that you should be given anything at all. We are nothing Nick. You do well to remember that. Anything God gives us, isn't deserved. It is by His mercy and love. God owes you nothing.

And this:

Quote

Quote DANIEL 7:18 “But the holy ones of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will take possession of the kingdom for time indefinite, even for time indefinite upon times indefinite.’” (HOLY ONES RECEIVE THE KINGDOM) DANIEL 7:21-22 ““I kept on beholding when that very horn made war upon the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.” (HOLY ONES RECEIVE THE KINGDOM) DANIEL 7:25 “And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time.” DANIEL 7:27 ““‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom, and all the rulerships will serve and obey even them.’” (HOLY ONES ARE GIVEN THE KINGDOM AND RULERSHIP) 1 CORINTHIANS 6:1-2 “Does anyone of YOU that has a case against the other dare to go to court before unrighteous men, and not before the holy ones? Or do YOU not know that the holy ones will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by YOU, are YOU unfit to try very trivial matters?” (HOLY ONES WILL BE JUDGES, IN THE KINGDOM) Then this:

Quote

Nick does not know that the “holy ones” will judge the world, apparently. They are given a special privilege, one that God reserves for them. God is not holding anything back from us. He has promised the best things imaginable for us–perfect health, perfect bodies, endless life in paradise among fellow worshippers of Jehovah God. Yet, God reserves the right and has the right, does he not to select a little flock to have a certain special responsibility. One of those responsibilities involves judging. We will be judged by our peers, people who experienced the same hardships we did on earth. Hence, no one can say they were judged unfairly. They were judged by people who faced every conceivable trial, just like them.

And then this:

Quote

ROMANS 1:7 “to all those who are in Rome as God’s beloved ones, called to be holy ones: May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ.” (SOME ARE CALLED TO BE HOLY ONES) 1 CORINTHIANS 1:2 “to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to YOU who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all who everywhere are calling upon the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:” (BEING A CHRISTIAN DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN YOU ARE A HOLY ONE.) EPHESIANS 1:1 “Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, to the holy ones who are [in Eph′e·sus] and faithful ones in union with Christ Jesus:” (BEING A FAITHFUL ONE DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN YOU ARE ONE OF THE HOLY ONES WHO RECEIVES THE KINGDOM. AFTER ALL, THE HOLY ONES ARE RULERS IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD. THEY NEED SOMEONE TO RULE AND JUDGE OVER. RIGHT?) EPHESIANS 1:18 “the eyes of YOUR heart having been enlightened, that YOU may know what is the hope to which he called YOU, what the glorious riches are which he holds as an inheritance for the holy ones,” (THE HOLY ONES RECIEVE AN INHERITANCE, THE KINGDOM, WITH CHRIST) PHILIPPIANS 1:1 “Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus, to all the holy ones in union with Christ Jesus who are in Phi·lip′pi, along with overseers and ministerial servants:” (JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE AN OVERSEER OR ELDER OR DEACON DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE ONE OF THE HOLY ONES WHO RECEIVE THE KINGDOM) COLOSSIANS 1:1-2 “Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, and Timothy [our] brother to the holy ones and faithful brothers in union with Christ at Co·los′sae: May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father.” (AGAIN, JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE A FAITHFUL BROTHER DOESN'T AUTOMATICALLY MAKE YOU A HOLY ONE OR SAINT. THE HOLY ONES HAVE A SPECIAL PRIVILEGE OF RULING IN GOD'S KINGDOM OVER MANKIND) HEBREWS 13:24 “Give my greetings to all those who are taking the lead among YOU and to all the holy ones. Those in Italy send YOU their greetings.” (ANOTHER DISTINCITION)

ANd then I ask Nick this question which he will not answer for whatever reason:
If these holy ones receive the kingdom, and you're one of these holy ones and everyone who is a Christian or true Christian is a holy one….whom do they rule over?
Please answer that question. I'm truly curious.

[Is 1:18]

Hi Ken, hope life is treating you well

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 23 2006,01:54)

I have never considered myself a saint.  A saint in my humble opinion lives their lives for Jesus. Their whole life not just on the web or every sunday but every minute they eat, drink, and LIVE Jesus.

If this is the standard for 'saintship' then no one qualifies, it's not possible to meet this standard. I think a saint is simply a saved person. NT writers used the term in reference to the followers of Jesus:

Acts 9:13
But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem;

Acts 9:32
Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda.

Acts 9:41
And he gave her his hand and raised her up; and calling the saints and widows, he presented her alive.

Acts 26:10
“And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons, having received authority from the chief priests, but also when they were being put to death I cast my vote against them.

Romans 1:7
to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:27
and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Romans 12:13
contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality.

Romans 15:25
but now, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints.

Romans 15:26
For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.

Romans 15:31
that I may be rescued from those who are disobedient in Judea, and that my service for Jerusalem may prove acceptable to the saints;

Romans 16:2
that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.

Romans 16:15
Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them.

1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

1 Corinthians 6:1
Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?

1 Corinthians 6:2
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?

1 Corinthians 14:33
for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

1 Corinthians 16:1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also.

1 Corinthians 16:15
Now I urge you, brethren (you know the household of Stephanas, that they were the first fruits of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves for ministry to the saints),

2 Corinthians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:

2 Corinthians 8:4
begging us with much urging for the favor of participation in the support of the saints,

2 Corinthians 9:1
For it is superfluous for me to write to you about this ministry to the saints;

2 Corinthians 9:12
For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God.

2 Corinthians 13:13
All the saints greet you.

Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 1:15
For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints,

I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 2:19
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,

Ephesians 3:8
To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,

Ephesians 3:18
may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,

Ephesians 4:12
for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

Ephesians 5:3
But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;

Ephesians 6:18
With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,

Philippians 1:1
Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:

Philippians 4:21
Greet every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren who are with me greet you.

Philippians 4:22
All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar's household.

Colossians 1:2
To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

Colossians 1:4
since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints;

Colossians 1:12
giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

Colossians 1:26
that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,

1 Thessalonians 3:13
so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

2 Thessalonians 1:10
when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed–for our testimony to you was believed.

1 Timothy 5:10
having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work.

Philemon 1:5
because I hear of your love and of the faith which you have toward the Lord Jesus and toward all the saints;

Philemon 1:7
For I have come to have much joy and comfort in your love, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed through you, brother.

Hebrews 6:10
For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.

Hebrews 13:24
Greet all of your leaders and all the saints. Those from Italy greet you.

Jude 1:3
Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.

Revelation 5:8
When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Revelation 8:3
Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.

If you are in Christ Jesus, an adopted son of God, a fellow heir with Christ – you are a saint….

Quote

Perhaps that's why we don't see the dead being raised and the “greater works” Jesus said we would do.

Interestingly these signs and wonders are commonplace in many non-western churches to this day, they appear to correlate with authentic christianity – go figure…

There is a book called “The heavenly man” about the underground church in China, it details the incredible power of God manifested in newly created churches under emense persecution. I recommend it to you.

Quote

A true saint would have the Holy Spirit LIVING within them all the time and not the occasional vist of the Holy Spirit such as I get.

Ken, I don't believe the Holy Spirit occasionally inhabits you, but rather inhabits you permanently and manifests Himself occasionally. Here is my reasoning:

We are told that the Spirit is given to us as a pledge, a seal:

2 Corinthians 1:22
who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Seal
G4972
σφραγίζω
sphragizō

From G4973; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication to keep secret, to attest: – (set a, set to) seal up, stop.

I think the word seal strongly implies permanence, not a temporal status….

In fact if we don't have the Holy Spirit, we are not saved, its cut and dry:

Romans 8:9
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Romans 8:14
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Romans 8:16-17
16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

So the indwelling of the Spirit of God is your guarantee of salvation. How would this work if He visited every now and again?

We are also told that the Holy Spirit, who abides in us:

Helps us with our weakness, and intercedes for us (I take this to mean perpetually, not occasionally):

Romans 8:26
26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;

and will be with us forever:

John 14:16-17
16″I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

Just my thoughts…

Blessings

[NickHassan]

amen Is 1.18.
Good post.

[david]

REVELATION 20:4,6
“And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and POWER OF JUDGING WAS GIVEN THEM. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and RULED AS KINGDS IWTH THE CHRIST FOR THE THOUSAND YEARS. . . .Happy and HOLY is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be PRIESTS OF GOD and of the Christ, and WILL RULE AS KINGS WITH HIM for the thousand years.”

[Is 1:18]

Of course, if it's true that the Holy Spirit is given to us a pledge of our salvation as He seals us in Christ Jesus, and will indwell us forever, then I can't see how its possible to lose our salvation….

As another aside, if we could lose our salvation we would also be confronted with the paradox of gaining eternal life temporarily…

Perhaps a topic for another thread…

[david]

It should be mentioned that those “sealed in Christ” are said to number 144,000.

REVELATION 7:4
“And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:”

Then there's these:

2 CORINTHIANS 1:22
“He has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts.”

EPHESIANS 4:30
“Also, do not be grieving God’s holy spirit, with which YOU have been sealed for a day of releasing by ransom.”

[NickHassan]

Quote (david @ Oct. 23 2006,03:50)

It should be mentioned that those “sealed in Christ” are said to number 144,000. REVELATION 7:4 “And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:” Then there's these: 2 CORINTHIANS 1:22 “He has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts.” EPHESIANS 4:30 “Also, do not be grieving God’s holy spirit, with which YOU have been sealed for a day of releasing by ransom.”

Hi david,
Those in Rev 7 and 14 are the remnant of the jewish people. We are not in the twelve tribes
but gentiles.

[NickHassan]

Hi david
“If these holy ones receive the kingdom, and you're one of these holy ones and everyone who is a Christian or true Christian is a holy one….whom do they rule over?
Please answer that question. I'm truly curious.”
It is only the armies who surround Jerusalem that are destroyed at the return of Jesus so the survivors of the battered earth will still be there to serve the new King of Kings and his rulers.

[david]

Nick, did you never read in the scriptures 'The stone that the builders REJECTED is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. Have you never read, 'The kingdom of God will be taken from them and given to a nation producing it's fruits?' (Mat 21:42,43)

Anyway,

REVELATION 5:9,10:
“You [Jesus Christ] were slaughtered and with your blood YOU BOUGHT PERSONS FOR GOD OUT OF EVERY TRIBE AND TONGUE AND PEOPLE AND NATION, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God…”

At Revelation 14:1-3 those on heavenly Mount Zion who number 144,000 are also said to be “bought from the earth.”

[david]

Quote

It is only the armies who surround Jerusalem that are destroyed at the return of Jesus so the survivors of the battered earth will still be there to serve the new King of Kings and his rulers.

Just Jerusalem? So just jerusalem is destroyed? I always have looked at this next scripture as “crushing” and 'putting an end' to all other human governments:

DANIEL 2:44
““And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;”

ANd this scripture, I've always looked at it as bringing to nothing all governments:

1 CORINTHIANS 15:24
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.”

1 CORINTHIANS 2:6
“Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing.”

PSALMS 2:8, 9:
“Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your own possession. You will break them with an iron scepter, as though a potter’s vessel you will dash them to pieces.”

[seekingtruth]

Scripture is not real clear but it does seem to lean slightly towards there being a “class” of people referred to as saints. I wonder if it may refer to those who are servants in the ministry; elders, bishops, etc. but the problem with that is Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
It seems that prophets are of a different group then saints.

As far as I've found there are only two people named specifically in scripture to be saints, Aaron and Paul.

Psalm 106:16
They envied Moses also in the camp, and Aaron the saint of the LORD.

It seems funny that it talks of Moses and Aaron in the same sentence but uses the singlular saint, seeming to imply that Moses was not one? Also I would read this as almost saying that Aaron was the original saint.

Ephesians 3:8
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints,

Actually this is a comparison to saints not a statement of his inclusion (although I believe he was).

I guess in the long run I've brought more questions to the table then answers, this is really the first time I have even thought about it, but it won't be the last as I will be praying about it, good question Ken, thanks.

[NickHassan]

Hi david
You said
“REVELATION 5:9,10:
“You [Jesus Christ] were slaughtered and with your blood YOU BOUGHT PERSONS FOR GOD OUT OF EVERY TRIBE AND TONGUE AND PEOPLE AND NATION, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God…”
Yes . These are not the 144,000 who are the remnant bondservants who serve God in His temple[rev22.3]

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
They will be defeated but still exist with milloins of natural subjects, and they will rebel at the end of the 1000 years when Satan is freed and again allowed influence over them.
Ps 2
” 1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

[kenrch]

Thanks to everyone who replied. It is much appreciated!

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High; and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall be set, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and the dominion, and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High: his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The time is in the end Dan 7:25 seems to me to describe the antichrist. Dan. 7:26 the antichrist and his government are destroyed. So Verse 27 is the New Kingdom “the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven” “the earth, shall be given to the people”. Jesus said the meek or humble will inherit the earth:

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

G4239
πραΰ́ς
praus
prah-ooce'
Apparently a primary word; mild, that is, (by implication) humble: – meek. See also G4235.

So the people of the saints are humble not proud or puffed up, not envious those who are satisfied with who they are and what God has given them. It is the MEEK who are the people of the saints. So who are the saints? The saints are the holy ones of God. Who is Holy but God? I believe the saints are those who have the Holy Spirit without measure such as the Apostles.

Is 1:18 said:
If this is the standard for 'saintship' then no one qualifies, ” it's not possible to meet this standard”. I think a saint is simply a saved person. NT writers used the term in reference to the followers of Jesus:
I would think that all things are possible with God it's just a matter of submission.

Saint:
G40
ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): – (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

When Paul speaks to the saints at Corinth or anyplace is he speaking to the whole congression or to the spiritual leaders of that congression? Are all the congression “holy”?

Then we have the description of a certain number of “saints”.
Rev 14:1 And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and the voice which I heard was as the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.

“These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth”. I know that I don't follow the lamb that is to do and say everything He wants me too. Simply put I am too fleshly though I may try, my flesh always gets in the way it is the flesh that we war with constantly.
So from what I see there are those who have been specially chosen who's flesh is “completely defeated” a small flock only 144,ooo who will be over the “meek” of the earth.

Just what scripture seems to say to me. All comments or ideas or anything at all are welcome.

Thanks to all!
Kenrch

[david]

Quote

So from what I see there are those who have been specially chosen who's flesh is “completely defeated” a small flock only 144,ooo who will be over the “meek” of the earth. Just what scripture seems to say to me. All comments or ideas or anything at all are welcome.

I agree.

[NickHassan]

Hi kenrch,
God sees none as better than any other in the kingdom of Christ.
He showed us in Matt 20
“Matthew 20
1For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

2And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

3And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

4And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

5Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

6And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

7They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

8So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

9And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

10But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen”

The ones who get in at the last minute are equal in God's eyes to those who have served long and well. Salvation is salvation.

However those who produce a greater return on the investment of the Spirit given to us do reap advantage in the millenial kingdom being given greater responsibility. Those who produce nothing lose everything they thought they had.

Lk 19
” 12He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

13And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

14But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

15And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

16Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

17And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

18And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.

19And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

20And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

21For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.

22And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

23Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?

24And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.

25(And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)

26For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

27But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. “

[david]

Quote

God sees none as better than any other in the kingdom of Christ.

–Nick

Quote

However those who produce a greater return on the investment of the Spirit given to us do reap advantage in the millenial kingdom being given greater responsibility.

–Nick

God sees none as better. Some are given greater responsibility. Could that greater responsibility be what Kenrch meant when he said:

“those who have been specially chosen . . .a small flock only 144,ooo who will be over the “meek” of the earth.
Being a ruler is certainly “greater responsibility.”

Nick, you quote:

MATTHEW 20:1-16
““For the kingdom of the heavens is like a man, a householder, who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. When he had agreed with the workers for a de·nar′i·us a day, he sent them forth into his vineyard. Going out also about the third hour, he saw others standing unemployed in the marketplace; and to those he said, ‘YOU also, go into the vineyard, and whatever is just I will give YOU.’ So off they went. Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour and did likewise. Finally, about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing, and he said to them, ‘Why have YOU been standing here all day unemployed?’ They said to him, ‘Because nobody has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘YOU too go into the vineyard.’ “When it became evening, the master of the vineyard said to his man in charge, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, proceeding from the last to the first.’ When the eleventh-hour men came, they each received a de·nar′i·us. So, when the first came, they concluded they would receive more; but they also received pay at the rate of a de·nar′i·us. On receiving it they began to murmur against the householder and said, ‘These last put in one hour’s work; still you made them equal to us who bore the burden of the day and the burning heat!’ But in reply to one of them he said, ‘Fellow, I do you no wrong. You agreed with me for a de·nar′i·us, did you not? Take what is yours and go. I want to give to this last one the same as to you. Is it not lawful for me to do what I want with my own things? Or is your eye wicked because I am good?’ In this way the last ones will be first, and the first ones last.””

LUKE 8:10
“He said: “To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of God, but for the rest it is in illustrations, in order that, though looking, they may look in vain and, though hearing, they may not get the meaning.”

The householder, or owner of the vineyard, is Jehovah God.

The vineyard is the nation of Israel.

The workers in the vineyard are persons brought into the Law covenant; they are specifically those Jews living in the days of the apostles.

It is only with the full-day workers that a wage agreement is made. The wage is a denarius for the day’s work. Since “the third hour” is 9:00 a.m., those called at the 3rd, 6th, 9th, and 11th hours work, respectively, only 9, 6, 3, and 1 hours.

The 12-hour, or full-day, workers represent the Jewish leaders who have been occupied continually in religious service.

They are unlike Jesus’ disciples, who have, for most of their lives, been employed in fishing or other secular occupations.

Not until the fall of 29 C.E. did the “householder” send Jesus Christ to gather these to be his disciples. They thus became “the last,” or the 11th-hour vineyard workers.

Finally, the symbolic workday ends with the death of Jesus, and the time comes to pay the workers. The unusual rule of paying the last first is followed, as is explained:
In conclusion Jesus repeated a point made earlier, saying: “In this way the last ones will be first, and the first ones last.”

The receiving of the denarius occurred, not at Jesus’ death, but at Pentecost 33 C.E., when Christ, the “man in charge,” poured out holy spirit on his disciples.

These disciples of Jesus were like “the last,” or the 11th-hour, workers.

The denarius did not represent the gift of the holy spirit itself. The denarius was something for the disciples to use here on earth. It was something that meant their livelihood, their everlasting life. It was the privilege of being a spiritual Israelite, anointed to preach about God’s Kingdom.

Soon those hired first observed that Jesus’ disciples had been paid, and they saw them using the symbolic denarius. But they wanted more than the holy spirit and its associated Kingdom privileges.

Their murmuring and objections took the form of persecuting Christ’s disciples, “the last” workers in the vineyard.

Quote

6So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen”

MATTHEW 22:14
““For there are many invited, but few chosen.””

Yes, there were many invited from the nation of Israel to become members of Christ’s bride, (mat 22:14) but only a few natural Israelites were chosen. Most of the 144,000 guests who receive the heavenly reward prove to be non-Israelites.

[NickHassan]

Hi David,
“MATTHEW 22:14
““For there are many invited, but few chosen.””

Yes, there were many invited from the nation of Israel to become members of Christ’s bride, (mat 22:14) but only a few natural Israelites were chosen. Most of the 144,000 guests who receive the heavenly reward prove to be non-Israelites”

Are not all invited?
Does not God want all to be saved?

[Author]

Posts