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Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ June 28 2006,18:30) Yet, if you have the wrong map, you will never find the right destination.
Interpetation: If you do not have the KJV, we cannot be on the right path.heiscomingintheclouds, you might as well realise that we are not swayed by your doctrine regarding the KJV.
You need more than passion to prove that what you say is truth. You need to back it up in scripture and of course the Spirit will bear witness of the truth too.
Question: Where in the KJV does it say that the KJV is the only vaild translation?
Answer: It doesn't.Therefore you are claiming special revelation. Can you blame us for being not only sceptical but for rightly challenging you on this issue.
Do not all cults and even some denominations claim special revelation. Are we to believe them all? Should we believe any of them? Why should I believe you and not them? If I believe you, then should I not believe them also?
Quote Nick, the further you get away from Pittsburgh, the harder it is to see the cities lights. Eventually you won't see the lights at all. The same is with God's words. H, the King James is 1600 years from the original Greek. So according to what you say, the KJ must have some definite problems. It's clear that the apostasy began shortly after Jesus and the apostles left the scene. With this, came those who wanted to twist the scriptures to justify their views.
The thing about your illustration about pittsburgh, is that if you went far enough, you would eventually come back to it.
In the darkened world run by “the church” who could possibly disagree or fight against mistranslation without being burned at the stake? Yet, we have passed those days and are coming back to the lights of pitsburgh.David, you are are JW, correct? So anything you say has no credibility. For the JW religion is a false religion. If you are not JW, please state so. I notices in an earlier post that some referred to you that you are.
If you do not use the KJ, it does not mean a man can not be saved or will lose one's salvation. God forbid. What it means is the battle against the enemy is that much harder. For the enemy seeks to decieve, and destroy all this is of God. He hates all that belongs to God. The further a man gets away from the truth, the more he will believe in the lie.
Hi h,
Is there no danger in relying only on what is written to the exclusion of seeking the indwelling of the true writer?Hi H,
JW doctrine is nonsense but David is a highly valued member of this forum and his scriptural knowledge has helped us all.Quote David, you are are JW, correct? So anything you say has no credibility. For the JW religion is a false religion. If you are not JW, please state so. I notices in an earlier post that some referred to you that you are. Are you for real,
Heiscoming?I have asked you about 15 times to provide any evidence at all that the KJV is infallible as you say. You have yet to provide a single shred of any proof of anything.
And the argument you use to me is that the KJV is infallible because I'm a Jehovah's Witness? Is that you're answer? You are committing what is known as the genetic fallacy. It’s false reasoning. Please see the “Five common fallacies” thread in the General Questions section.Heiscoming,
You seem to commit fallacy #1 a lot as well. You’re logic is unsound and your arguments baseless. Please see that thread to understand the falseness of your reasoning skills.
You refuse to answer questions or alligations or facts that disagree with what you believe. It's laughable. You believe so strongly, yet have no reason for your belief, Biblical or otherwise.Heiscoming,
You're refusal to answer my questions or your dismissing them because of who I am or am not is clear proof that you don't have any backing for what you say. If you had any, you would have said it. You have nothing.
So now I, am going to make the same error in reasoning you are. I'm going to choose to believe that everything about you is wrong. Clearly, your belief that the KJV is infallible is wrong. That is beyond dispute. So, I'm going to falsely reason that every word from your mouth is wrong. Is that ok?
This is what you are doing. So, I'll do the same.
Heiscoming, I won't attempt to ask you for proof anymore. It's futile. Go on believing what you believe with no reason. If you like, don't ask questions. Don't attempt to answer them. Keep believing what you believe. That seems to be working for you, or so you think.
david
Quote Hi H,
JW doctrine is nonsense but David is a highly valued member of this forum and his scriptural knowledge has helped us all.Then, Nick, by your own mouth, a lot of Nick Hassen doctrine is “nonsense,” as well. I mean, it would have to be, wouldn't it? The God is not a trinity doctrine for example. That's a big one. Say you don't believe in the trinity, and you will be labelled a JW. And this is what I said to H. Saying that something someone believes is wrong (such as not believing in the trinity) because of who they are is ludacris. I guess God is a trinity because JW's believe he's not. Ya, that makes sense. Or does it make “nonsense”?
But, I'll attempt to take what you said as a compliment. Thankyou.
David,
I have friends I work with that are JW. I don't mean to make you angry.
I thought the JW liked the KJ anyway. If they don't, that is just one more thing I have against the religion. Dave, I am not your enemy. I just want you to read my posts with an open heart. Try to make sense of them. You will see that there is truth there. Don't argue over translation, discuss dogma. You won't be disappointed. Let God work his perfect work. I have read things you have posted and I can see that not all things you post are of the JW dogma. We must all stand alone before God. Do not be influenced by the religions of men. Let the Holy Spirit lead you into the truth of God's word.The JW do not believe that the soul continues after death, yet the soul of Samuel appeared to Saul. It was not resurrected, for the resurrection will come with the joining of the soul and the spirit. Anyway, think about it. I know you are searching. Do you really believe that the JW religion is where God wants you to be?
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ June 30 2006,19:20) Do not be influenced by the religions
Like the religion that says the KJV is the perfect translation despite the inclusion of 1 John 5:7.Luke 6:42
How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.heiscomingintheclouds can I suggest that instead of being the bearer of special revelation, that you convince us of what you say. To convince is to provide some proof or show from scripture that what you say is indeed so. Otherwise we could all waste our lives listening to the ramblings of those with special revelations. The world is full of such people and that is why there are so many religions and ways.
It is written that we should always have an answer for what we believe and that we should convince men. But it is easy for people to say “I am the messiah” or “you must read this particular text”. But you need substance in order to convince people to that which you teach and preach. So far the substance points to you being wrong. I speak of 1 John 5:7 for now.
Sorry t eight, but the verse should be in the bible. And I have been called a hypocrite before. It matters little to me what others call me. I just bless them as it says to do according to God's word.
I am a man just like you. I am a sinner just like you. The only good in me is my allowing the Lord to work through me by being submissive to his will and suppressive to my self will. Oh how evil this flesh is. It is always warring against our spirit, trying to impose it's will of carnage which can bring death to the soul. Yet, he who is in us is greater then he who is in the world. It is our faith in Jesus that helps us overcome the carnal mind.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Quote I thought the JW liked the KJ anyway. If they don't, that is just one more thing I have against the religion. H, we used to use it excluvily I believe. Then, we started using many Bibles. Most JW's own a KJV.
What I am saying is that you very very strongly assert that the KJV is infallible and the only infallible Bible. You make this claim, over and over. Yet, you are unable to defend the holes that are being poked in your claim. This of course bothers people.Quote The JW do not believe that the soul continues after death, yet the soul of Samuel appeared to Saul. H, we devoted a few pages to this topic of Samuel's supposed appearance to Saul in I believe the hades/hell thread. I will try to find it for you.
H, I believe that the soul that is sinning, it itself will die. I believe a soul can be destroyed. I believe the Bible uses the words “dead soul.” And I believe my belief is backed by countless scriptures. If your understanding of that account doesn't match up with what the scriptures say as a whole, then what does that say about your understanding?
— How does the teaching that the soul is a separate part fit in with
the fact that animals are souls? (Ge 1:20,21,24; 2:19; 9:10,12,15; Le 11:10,46; 24:18; Nu 31:28; Job 41:21; Eze 47:9)
–How does the teaching that the soul is separate part of the person fit in with the many clear scriptures that completely disagree with this, and say that a living person IS a soul? (Ge 2:7; 12:15; 14:21; 36:6; 46:15,18,22,25,26,27; Ex 1:5; 12:4,16; 16:16; Le 2:1; 4:2,27; 5:1,2,4,15,17; 6:2; 7:18,20,21,25,27; 17:10,12,1518:29; 20:6; 22:6,11; 23:29,30; 27:2; Nu 5:6; 15:27,28,30; 19:18,22; 31:35,40,46; 35:30; De10:22; 24:6,7; 1Sa 22:22; 2Sa 14:14; 2Ki 12:4; 1Ch 5:21; Ps 19:7; Pr 11:25,30; 16:24; 19:2,15; 25:25; 27:7,9; Jer 43:6; 52:29; La 3:25; Eze 27:13; Ac 2:41,43; 7:14; 27:37; Ro 13:1; 1Co 15:45; 1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:14)
–How does the teaching that the soul somehow is separate and survives the death of the body fit in with the scriptures that say soul is mortal, destructible? (Ge 12:13; 17:14; 19:19,20; 37:21; Ex 12:15,19; 31:14; Le 7:20,21,27; 19:8; 22:3; 23:30; 24:17; Nu 9:13; 15:30,31; 19:13,20; 23:10; 31:19; 35:11,15,30; De 19:6,11; 22:26; 27:25; Jos 2:13,14; 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; 11:11; 20:3,9; Jg 5:18; 16:16,30; 1Ki 19:4; 20:31; Job 7:15; 11:20; 18:4; 33:22; 36:14; Ps 7:2; 22:29; 66:9; 69:1; 78:50; 94:17; 106:15; 124:4; Pr 28:17; Isa 55:3; Jer 2:34; 4:10; 18:20; 38:17; 40:14; Eze 13:19; 17:17; 18:4; 22:25,27; 33:6; Mt 2:20; 10:28; 26:38; Mr 3:4; 14:34; Lu 6:9; 17:33; Joh 12:25; Ac 3:23: Ro 11:3; Heb 10:39; Jas 5:20; Re 8:9; 12:11; 16:3)
–How does the belief that the soul survives the death of the body fit in with these scriptures that speak of a dead soul or corpse? (Le 19:28; 21:1,11; 22:4; Nu 5:2; 6:6,11; 9:6,7,10; 19:11,13; Hag 4:12)I have yet to find the words “immortal soul” in the KJV, or any other. Instead, I find “dead soul.” In the genesis account, we are told that Adam “became” a soul. He was not given a soul. So, when Adam died, Adam the soul died. The idea that the soul is a separate part of humans is borrowed from paganism, just as the trinity was. It is a lie. It began with Satan's words to Eve: “You positively will not die.” Eve did die. So did Adam. Adam, the soul, died.
Anyway, this topic has it's own thread. I'll search the hades/hell thread for Samuel/Saul.david
David,
The soul, when not being born again goes to hell. Prior to Jesus, those who died and had lived a rightious life went to the place referred to by Jesus as the bosom of Abraham. When Jesus died, he went to this place where all the rightious souls were being held captive, and set them free.
That is why when the bible says he tasted death for all, he did. It is not talking about physical death, for we all taste that death, it was talking about the death of the soul. All who are born again, though they are dead, yet will they live.
David,
With all due respect I've seen what JW's really use and read as far as Biblical texts as I have attended
their meetings, conventions and even studied with them. We were told to use their anonymously edited New World Translation and the Watchtower magazine and nothing else. I have NEVER seen or heard them recommend any other Bible or study aids other than their own nor have I seen any other Bible other than theirs at their meetings and I've been to them all.As someone said, the problem with that is when someone claims special revelation, also known as “pontification”, and gathers people based on that, you have the start of a cult. The only thing I would recommend is reading the early inane ramblings of their founder, Charles Taze Russel whom no JW wants to talk about today. Not to mention his standing on a bridge with his followers in the 1800's waiting for Christ to return based on his special revelation. When Christ did not show up as per his prediction he simply said the Lord had returned “invisibly” which is totally against what the Bible says Christ's second coming will be. Not to mention his mystic ties as a Free Mason. Not to mention that he is buried under a huge pyramid headstone in PA. Not to mention all the other times he and other JW leaders falsely predicted Christ's return, then denied they said it. Not to mention that lying is acceptable under the banner of “theocratic warfare”.
So please. Anyone can clearly look up your religion's history on the internet and that is why there were so many conventions telling you to stay off of it. People are afraid to leave because if they do they will be disfellowshipped and their family and friends still belonging to the JW's are told to have nothing to do with them. There is NOTHING in the Bible that says you can not go and fellowship with another group of Bible believers but they add to the scriptures and say otherwise. Why don't we talk about all those poor souls who were shunned and went on to commit suicide? That and mental disorders rank high among JW's and Mormons.
Recently the news has uncovered pedophiles in your group which your leaders were protecting by telling the victims NOT to contact the authorities. When families did call the police, your group disfellowshipped THEM and kept the pedophiles int the church. Even today, known pedophiles in your church go door to door witnessing. Jesus said “You will know them by their fruits.” False prophecy, legalistic works-based salvation and no real love for people are what I've experienced first hand. I'm truly sorry if I have hurt your feelings and if you feel you are serving Yahweh, (Jehovah is NOT God's name as there is no “J” sound in Hebrew), by staying in this religion, I still ask that He bless and keep you. However, DO NOT try to gloss over anything about JW's because I WILL call you on it.
May our Heavenly Father, Yah, bless everyone here in the name of His Son, Yahshua.
Semmy
Yes T8,
Someone did, didn't they? It pained me to write all of that
because even though I don't know David, I care about his
feelings and destiny as someone seeking to serve God and Christ.HOWEVER, if someone had told me HALF of the history
of JW's, I would have NEVER wasted my time. See,
they are forbidden to read any books, articles or
materials which are critical of JW's or their teachings.How are you then to see if you are “truly in the faith” as
Paul says? Oh yeah, that's right. Who cares what Paul
has to say, (Jesus either). You'd better listen to those
ten guys in Brooklyn aka “the faithful and discreet slave”.Uh huh. Sure.
Shalom,
S:D
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