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KJ,
Mosses is a Hebrew.
The first case I know of when an angel is called Yahweh Elohim is Genesis 3:8-9.
Genesis 3:8-9
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. 9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
The angels is also called “the voice of YHWH elohim”.
Sorry, here is a version that does not use a euphemism to mean Jehovah.
Genesis 3:8-9
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)8 And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden.
9 And Jehovah God calleth unto the man, and saith to him, `Where [art] thou?'
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 15 2013,22:11) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2013,17:37) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 14 2013,08:57) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 14 2013,20:17) My question will they not answer:
And that was:Who created the A GOD?
Who is supposedly to be the Word?
Without the Word was not *ANYTHING MADE* that was made.wakeup.
It literally says “Without Him (the Word) not one thing came into being that has come into being.”If the Word came into being from non-being, then it cannot be true that “not one thing” came into being without Him.
Logic 101
Acts 4:24
When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.Hmmmm……….. Isn't Jehovah one of the “everything in heaven”? Did He make Himself then?
Or does Logic 101 dictate that Jehovah Himself is EXCLUDED from the “everything in heaven” that Jehovah MADE?
Mike
Exactly the point. Just as Jehovah is excluded from the everything, so was Jesus!
The proof of it is the statement “without him (Jesus) was not anything made that was made!”
Which is a more clarifying statement than your verse for it doesn't say…
Acts 4:24
When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them (and without him was not anything made that was made).Does it?
WJ
WJ,You are not being clear as Mike is claiming Jesus is an exception to the words “everything that was made” Your words come out as sounding the same as his words though you mean them different.
I believe Jesus like all else was created by God's word just as we are told in Genesis 1-2 and elsewhere. The word was uttered by God. Jesus after all had beginnings while God does not.
God has no beginnings because he is not one of the created.
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 15 2013,17:46) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 15 2013,17:29) Wakeup, The word is Ra` and like many words it has many meanings. I can certainly see the Hebrews taking the name of a foreign god and using it to have a number of negative meanings. Ra comes from Ra`a`which has similar meanings.
Note: .biblestudytools.com is my source.
Thank you Kerwin.
Not too important to me.wakeup.
Wakeup,It helps to get a idea of how the writers of Scripture think and the many ways a single word can be used to mean different things. That may confuse you as some like their choices simplified.
Wakeup and Mike,
Isaiah 54:16-17
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire,
and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work;
and I have created the waster to destroy.
17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper;
and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn.
This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord,
and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.That would be the soldiers that lay to waste the countryside as the move over it.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 16 2013,03:36) KJ, Mosses is a Hebrew.
The first case I know of when an angel is called Yahweh Elohim is Genesis 3:8-9.
Genesis 3:8-9
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. 9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
The angels is also called “the voice of YHWH elohim”.
Sorry, here is a version that does not use a euphemism to mean Jehovah.
Genesis 3:8-9
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)8 And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden.
9 And Jehovah God calleth unto the man, and saith to him, `Where [art] thou?'
Kerwin,Moses was an Egyptian. Even so, Mike said that the Hebrews called angels (plural) by YHWH's name. This is false. Only ONE Angel (messenger) was explicitly called “YHWH,” and “the God of thy fathers.”
How can an Angel call Himself “the God of thy fathers” if He is not God? Come on!!
P.S. to Kerwin,
My point is that only ONE Angel is called “YHWH,” and, “the God of thy fathers,” and it is NOT the Hebrews who called Him that. It was Moses (an Egyptian) who called Him “YHWH,” and the Angel Himself called Himself “the God of thy fathers.”
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 16 2013,02:38) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 16 2013,03:36) KJ, Mosses is a Hebrew.
The first case I know of when an angel is called Yahweh Elohim is Genesis 3:8-9.
Genesis 3:8-9
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. 9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
The angels is also called “the voice of YHWH elohim”.
Sorry, here is a version that does not use a euphemism to mean Jehovah.
Genesis 3:8-9
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)8 And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden.
9 And Jehovah God calleth unto the man, and saith to him, `Where [art] thou?'
Kerwin,Moses was an Egyptian. Even so, Mike said that the Hebrews called angels (plural) by YHWH's name. This is false. Only ONE Angel (messenger) was explicitly called “YHWH,” and “the God of thy fathers.”
How can an Angel call Himself “the God of thy fathers” if He is not God? Come on!!
KJ.It depends on how Mike was speaking. In the literal sense I know of only one angel at a time that is called Jehovah but I do not know whether or not it was the same angel every time. I think the traditional opinion is that it is.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 16 2013,10:44) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 16 2013,02:38) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 16 2013,03:36) KJ, Mosses is a Hebrew.
The first case I know of when an angel is called Yahweh Elohim is Genesis 3:8-9.
Genesis 3:8-9
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. 9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
The angels is also called “the voice of YHWH elohim”.
Sorry, here is a version that does not use a euphemism to mean Jehovah.
Genesis 3:8-9
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)8 And they hear the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day, and the man and his wife hide themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the midst of the trees of the garden.
9 And Jehovah God calleth unto the man, and saith to him, `Where [art] thou?'
Kerwin,Moses was an Egyptian. Even so, Mike said that the Hebrews called angels (plural) by YHWH's name. This is false. Only ONE Angel (messenger) was explicitly called “YHWH,” and “the God of thy fathers.”
How can an Angel call Himself “the God of thy fathers” if He is not God? Come on!!
KJ.It depends on how Mike was speaking. In the literal sense I know of only one angel at a time that is called Jehovah but I do not know whether or not it was the same angel every time. I think the traditional opinion is that it is.
Ooh my, where is this thread all leading too?
Angels being called Jehovah now?
You guys are so messed up, and it's getting worse every day.Quote Ooh my, where is this thread all leading too?
Angels being called Jehovah now?
You guys are so messed up, and it's getting worse every day.“The Angel of the LORD…. Traditional Christian interpretation has held that this ‘angel’ was a preincarnate manifestation of Christ as God’s Messenger-Servant. It may be, however, that, as the Lord’s personal messenger who represented him and bore his credentials, the angel could speak on behalf of (and so be identified with) the One [Jehovah] who sent him” – footnote for Gen. 16:7 in the trinitarian The NIV Study Bible by Zondervan Publishing, 1985.
It is not uncommon for a trusted servant to actually represent his master in dealings with others. “What a servant says or does is [sometimes] ascribed to the master” – Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, “Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation,” Eerdmans Publishing, 1978 printing.
[Even the person speaking to Moses from the burning bush was an angel! Even though he spoke Jehovah's words and seemed to be Jehovah, we know that it was an angel speaking and acting for Jehovah: Acts 7:30.]
Therefore, seeing the form of one of God's perfect representatives was spoken of as seeing God. (E.g. Manoa knew he had spoken with an angel of Jehovah and yet said: “we shall surely die because we have seen God.” – Judges 13:21, 22 ASV.)
Please compare the following scriptures: Gen. 16:10, 11 and 13; Gen. 31:11 and Gen. 31:13; Gen. 32:24-30 and Hosea 12:4; Judges 6:16 and 6:20-23.
Which bible should you believe, KJV, or newer bibles.
The word “believe,” I think it should be expanded upon.
Are we saying which bible do you “agree with, the most,” or are we asking: which bible is the most accurate?
People can believe both the KJV, and other versions, knowing there neither are perfect. Is the question, which has the least flaws?
Quote (tigger2 @ Nov. 16 2013,14:28) Quote Ooh my, where is this thread all leading too?
Angels being called Jehovah now?
You guys are so messed up, and it's getting worse every day.“The Angel of the LORD…. Traditional Christian interpretation has held that this ‘angel’ was a preincarnate manifestation of Christ as God’s Messenger-Servant. It may be, however, that, as the Lord’s personal messenger who represented him and bore his credentials, the angel could speak on behalf of (and so be identified with) the One [Jehovah] who sent him” – footnote for Gen. 16:7 in the trinitarian The NIV Study Bible by Zondervan Publishing, 1985.
It is not uncommon for a trusted servant to actually represent his master in dealings with others. “What a servant says or does is [sometimes] ascribed to the master” – Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, “Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation,” Eerdmans Publishing, 1978 printing.
[Even the person speaking to Moses from the burning bush was an angel! Even though he spoke Jehovah's words and seemed to be Jehovah, we know that it was an angel speaking and acting for Jehovah: Acts 7:30.]
Therefore, seeing the form of one of God's perfect representatives was spoken of as seeing God. (E.g. Manoa knew he had spoken with an angel of Jehovah and yet said: “we shall surely die because we have seen God.” – Judges 13:21, 22 ASV.)
Please compare the following scriptures: Gen. 16:10, 11 and 13; Gen. 31:11 and Gen. 31:13; Gen. 32:24-30 and Hosea 12:4; Judges 6:16 and 6:20-23.
Yes, or there is that scripture that says David built the temple.David was the one who was in charge of having it done. David of course did not build the temple.
So if the workers or representative(s) of David do something, we can also say david did that thing.
So why not when gods angel does something?
journey42 ,
What do you mean when you say angels are called by the name of Jehovah? There is at least one angel that is called Jehovah Elohim since according to Paul's word as translated by the ASKV translators the Law was ordained by angels.
Galatians 3:19
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Yet we are also told Moses spoke face to face with Jehovah.
Exodus 33:11
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)11 And Jehovah hath spoken unto Moses face unto face, as a man speaketh unto his friend; and he hath turned back unto the camp, and his minister Joshua, son of Nun, a youth, departeth not out of the tent.
Exodus 33:11
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 16 2013,16:32) journey42 , What do you mean when you say angels are called by the name of Jehovah? There is at least one angel that is called Jehovah Elohim since according to Paul's word as translated by the ASKV translators the Law was ordained by angels.
Galatians 3:19
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Yet we are also told Moses spoke face to face with Jehovah.
Exodus 33:11
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)11 And Jehovah hath spoken unto Moses face unto face, as a man speaketh unto his friend; and he hath turned back unto the camp, and his minister Joshua, son of Nun, a youth, departeth not out of the tent.
Exodus 33:11
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
KerwinYour scripture from the AKJV DID NOT PROVE that an angel was called Jehovah Elohim.
Quote (tigger2 @ Nov. 16 2013,14:28) Quote Ooh my, where is this thread all leading too?
Angels being called Jehovah now?
You guys are so messed up, and it's getting worse every day.“The Angel of the LORD…. Traditional Christian interpretation has held that this ‘angel’ was a preincarnate manifestation of Christ as God’s Messenger-Servant. It may be, however, that, as the Lord’s personal messenger who represented him and bore his credentials, the angel could speak on behalf of (and so be identified with) the One [Jehovah] who sent him” – footnote for Gen. 16:7 in the trinitarian The NIV Study Bible by Zondervan Publishing, 1985.
It is not uncommon for a trusted servant to actually represent his master in dealings with others. “What a servant says or does is [sometimes] ascribed to the master” – Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, “Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation,” Eerdmans Publishing, 1978 printing.
[Even the person speaking to Moses from the burning bush was an angel! Even though he spoke Jehovah's words and seemed to be Jehovah, we know that it was an angel speaking and acting for Jehovah: Acts 7:30.]
Therefore, seeing the form of one of God's perfect representatives was spoken of as seeing God. (E.g. Manoa knew he had spoken with an angel of Jehovah and yet said: “we shall surely die because we have seen God.” – Judges 13:21, 22 ASV.)
Please compare the following scriptures: Gen. 16:10, 11 and 13; Gen. 31:11 and Gen. 31:13; Gen. 32:24-30 and Hosea 12:4; Judges 6:16 and 6:20-23.
Tigger2.You need to clarify this question first:
Why is it that the jw's always ignore this question?1.Who created the angels?
2.Are angels ceatures,or beings?wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 16 2013,22:19) Quote (tigger2 @ Nov. 16 2013,14:28) Quote Ooh my, where is this thread all leading too?
Angels being called Jehovah now?
You guys are so messed up, and it's getting worse every day.“The Angel of the LORD…. Traditional Christian interpretation has held that this ‘angel’ was a preincarnate manifestation of Christ as God’s Messenger-Servant. It may be, however, that, as the Lord’s personal messenger who represented him and bore his credentials, the angel could speak on behalf of (and so be identified with) the One [Jehovah] who sent him” – footnote for Gen. 16:7 in the trinitarian The NIV Study Bible by Zondervan Publishing, 1985.
It is not uncommon for a trusted servant to actually represent his master in dealings with others. “What a servant says or does is [sometimes] ascribed to the master” – Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, “Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation,” Eerdmans Publishing, 1978 printing.
[Even the person speaking to Moses from the burning bush was an angel! Even though he spoke Jehovah's words and seemed to be Jehovah, we know that it was an angel speaking and acting for Jehovah: Acts 7:30.]
Therefore, seeing the form of one of God's perfect representatives was spoken of as seeing God. (E.g. Manoa knew he had spoken with an angel of Jehovah and yet said: “we shall surely die because we have seen God.” – Judges 13:21, 22 ASV.)
Please compare the following scriptures: Gen. 16:10, 11 and 13; Gen. 31:11 and Gen. 31:13; Gen. 32:24-30 and Hosea 12:4; Judges 6:16 and 6:20-23.
Tigger2.You need to clarify this question first:
Why is it that the jw's always ignore this question?1.Who created the angels?
2.Are angels ceatures,or beings?wakeup.
Creature:
n.
1. Something created.
2.
a. A living BEING, especially an animal: land creatures; microscopic creatures in a drop of water.
b. A human.
c. An imaginary or fantastical being: mythological creatures; a creature from outer space.
3. One dependent on or subservient to another.I don't understand why you want to create the false dichotomy or whatever of angels being either beings or creatures.
Why can't angels be both beings and be created?
Quote (david @ Nov. 15 2013,22:32) Yes, or there is that scripture that says David built the temple. David was the one who was in charge of having it done. David of course did not build the temple. David
So why don't you carry your logic through? If David built the temple “by or through” representatives yet he himself did not build it, then why do you say Jesus was not the builder of the creation since by and through him all things were made at the Fathers command.
And if Jesus did not build or create all things (According to John 1:3, Col 1:16,17 and Heb 1:10) at the Fathers command then what part did he have in the creation of all things since the scriptures say all things were created “By him and for him”?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 16 2013,21:54) Quote (david @ Nov. 15 2013,22:32) Yes, or there is that scripture that says David built the temple. David was the one who was in charge of having it done. David of course did not build the temple. David
So why don't you carry your logic through? If David built the temple “by or through” representatives yet he himself did not build it, then why do you say Jesus was not the builder of the creation since by and through him all things were made at the Fathers command.
And if Jesus did not build or create all things (According to John 1:3, Col 1:16,17 and Heb 1:10) at the Fathers command then what part did he have in the creation of all things since the scriptures say all things were created “By him and for him”?
WJ
WJ,If you use the word “by” as if he is the one that created all things then it not does work according to Trinitarian Christology. Trinitarians believe that the Father created and he created all things through the Son. So to fit your chosen Christology the word “by” has to mean “through” in John 1:3. That is the same way Mike uses it but he claims the Son is an exception. I take “the word” to mean the utterance of God and John 1:3 to testify of the fact that God said “Let there be ..” and there was.
Quote (david @ Nov. 17 2013,00:54) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 16 2013,22:19) Quote (tigger2 @ Nov. 16 2013,14:28) Quote Ooh my, where is this thread all leading too?
Angels being called Jehovah now?
You guys are so messed up, and it's getting worse every day.“The Angel of the LORD…. Traditional Christian interpretation has held that this ‘angel’ was a preincarnate manifestation of Christ as God’s Messenger-Servant. It may be, however, that, as the Lord’s personal messenger who represented him and bore his credentials, the angel could speak on behalf of (and so be identified with) the One [Jehovah] who sent him” – footnote for Gen. 16:7 in the trinitarian The NIV Study Bible by Zondervan Publishing, 1985.
It is not uncommon for a trusted servant to actually represent his master in dealings with others. “What a servant says or does is [sometimes] ascribed to the master” – Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, “Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation,” Eerdmans Publishing, 1978 printing.
[Even the person speaking to Moses from the burning bush was an angel! Even though he spoke Jehovah's words and seemed to be Jehovah, we know that it was an angel speaking and acting for Jehovah: Acts 7:30.]
Therefore, seeing the form of one of God's perfect representatives was spoken of as seeing God. (E.g. Manoa knew he had spoken with an angel of Jehovah and yet said: “we shall surely die because we have seen God.” – Judges 13:21, 22 ASV.)
Please compare the following scriptures: Gen. 16:10, 11 and 13; Gen. 31:11 and Gen. 31:13; Gen. 32:24-30 and Hosea 12:4; Judges 6:16 and 6:20-23.
Tigger2.You need to clarify this question first:
Why is it that the jw's always ignore this question?1.Who created the angels?
2.Are angels ceatures,or beings?wakeup.
Creature:
n.
1. Something created.
2.
a. A living BEING, especially an animal: land creatures; microscopic creatures in a drop of water.
b. A human.
c. An imaginary or fantastical being: mythological creatures; a creature from outer space.
3. One dependent on or subservient to another.I don't understand why you want to create the false dichotomy or whatever of angels being either beings or creatures.
Why can't angels be both beings and be created?
David.All living, created by the Word are creatures.
God and his Word are not creatures.
They are beings from everlasting who ctreated
all things.My question was:
How can Micha'el: a ctreature, be the one that created
all things,for he also was created,by the Word.**Without Him/Word, was nothing made that was made**.
The creator is not created;therefore not a cteature,but the creators of all living creatures.WHO CREATED: THE *A GOD* IN JOHN 1.?
**We never believe angels are called Jehovah**.
So get that one straight.wakeup.
?
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