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Quote (david @ April 12 2009,12:07) Quote If anyone studies the prophecies in Matthew 24 – Mark 13 –
Luke 21 they will see that the Christ never foretold, in
that sign any religious organization that had his Father's
favor and blessing; to the contrary all that he foretold for
that time period was the prevalence of false prophets with
no mention of any true organization that was appointed to
represent him.It's true that those scriptures do mention false prophets. But notice something else that is mentioned:
Matt. 24:14; 28:19,20: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”
“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them . . . teaching them.”For all nations to be given the opportunity to hear that good news, the preaching must be carried out in an orderly way,with suitable oversight. How would this be accomplished without organization? When Jesus trained his early disciples for this work, He did not simply tell each one to go wherever he desired and to share his faith in whatever way he chose. He trained them, gave them instructions and sent them out in an organized manner. See Luke 8:1; 9:1-6; 10:1-16.
So there may not be “any mention of a true organization that was appointed to represent him” but clearly, based on Matthew 24:14, there would have to be. The only alternative, is to believe that this global preaching work is being delivered by individuals who all have conflicting beliefs, attitudes, standards of conduct. They don't agree. Hence, they can not all be correct.
1 Cor. 14:33, 40: “God is a God, not of disorder, but of peace. . . . Let all things take place decently and by arrangement.”
The apostle Paul is here discussing orderly procedure at congregation meetings. Applying this inspired counsel requires respect for organization.
If the God of the Bible is not a god of disorder, then he is one of order, and would have this worldwide preaching work carried out in an orderly way.Also:
Heb. 10:24, 25: “Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near.” (Compare Rom 1:1,2)
To carry out this Scriptural command, there must be Christian meetings that we can attend on a consistent basis. Such an arrangement encourages us to express love toward others, not only concern about self. To where would a person direct interested ones so they could obey this command if there were no organization with regular meetings where they could gather?And again, on the subject of carrying this preaching work (mat 24:14) out in an orderly way:
1 Cor. 1:10: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
I would argue strongly that such unity would never be achieved if the individuals did not meet together, benefit from the same spiritual feeding program, and respect the agency through which such instruction was provided. See also John 17:20, 21.1 Pet. 2:17: “Have love for the whole association of brothers.”
Does that include only those who may meet together for worship in a particular private home? Not at all; it is an international brotherhood, as shown by Galatians 2:8, 9 and 1 Corinthians 16:19.1 Pet. 2:9, 17: “But you are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies’ of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. . . . Have love for the whole association of brothers.”
An association of people whose efforts are directed to accomplish a particular work is an organization.John 10:16: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”
Since Jesus would bring such ones into “one flock,” is it not obvious that they could not be scattered in Christendom’s religions?The truth is:
The earliest Christians did not worship merely as individuals but were organized into congregations and were united under overseers and a central body of elders that looked to Jesus as Head. (Acts 14:21-23; 15:1-31; Eph 1:22; 1 Tim 3:1-13)
Quote Where is Jehovah's Organization to be found now?
Obviously, if they are carrying out the prophecy in Matthew 24:14, then they would be found all over the world, speaking all sorts of languages and have a global worldwide presence. They would be carrying out this same message unitedly as a brotherhood.
But, of course, you don't have to “find” them. If they are carrying out this work (mat 24:14), they will find you.david
Hello David!
Allow me, if you will, to question you! Who was it that “ORGANIZED” the preaching activity in the first Century? Who was it that “TAUGHT AND TRAINED” the Apostles and disciples at that time? Who was it that “SENT THEM OUT” to do that preaching activity? Was it not the Christ himself? Then after his ascension, after he was “GLORIFIED,” who was it that revealed further truths to them by means of “REVELATIONS” from the invisible heavens? Was that not also the Christ as well?You would have everyone believe that some man-made organization is doing all of those things now, but that is impossible; the reason being, no organization on this earth today is in possession of the Holy Spirit, that essential engredient needed to get all of that work done! The only one who could possibly ORGANIZE that work now is the Christ himself, because he is the ONLY ONE in possession of the Holy Spirit; he is the ONLY ONE able to pour it out to get all of that work done! Do you believe that Jesus would pour out the Holy Spirit on the empire of false Religion? If you believe that, you'd best give yourself a serious shake, and come to you senses!
So, you see, you're quite wrong in your reasoning, and I believe that it is time for you to get your eyes wide opened as you read Jehovah's word of truth, so you will gain an accurate understanding of everything written!
Stop trying to give the credit to some earthly organization, that belongs solely to the Christ!
Give the credit for all of it, to the one to whom it is due, the Son of Jehovah God, Jesus Christ! Texas!T8, on your comments:
Quote Exactly the point david. Jesus is the head of the Church. Not the Watchtower, a president, CEO, or pastor.
I agree and never stated otherwise.
Quote See that david? Every denomination is built by man. The earliest group of Christians was not built by man. Well, it was built by Jesus.
Quote Your example of Jesus organising his disciples is correct. But Jesus is not here is he? But T8, I thought you said Jesus is the head of the church? Does not the head lead? “your leader is one, the Christ.”
Quote So we are now are filled and led by the Spirit. And our chief pastor is Christ and he builds his Church and he gave authority to his Church. True, but my point, which Nick always conveintently overlooks was:
Nick, I am simply saying that you are not right about a lot of stuff.
Either that, or T8 is not right about stuff.The above is a fact.
So, putting that fact together with the idea that the Christ is not divided, what can we ascertain?
If Jesus' followers are lead by the spirit, as you say T8, why is it that the spirit tells some of them that Jesus tortures people in hellfire, and to others he says the opposite.
T8, why is it that the spirit says to some: God is a trinity, and to others, he says: God is not a trinity.Clearly, logically, it is not the spirit at work. My point, again, as Jesus said: Every kingdom divided against itself will fall
Is the spirit of God divided, T8? No. But all the individuals of the world who logically and by definition follow themselves are following man….themselves, or woman, as the case may be. Unless you think the spirit is divided.Hi T8, it's me again.
Quote david you could also add your name too if you want to be fair. You are in contradiction to many of us, are you not? And what of your unity with JWs? Is there not unity among Roman Catholics. What about the Nazis, or the socialist movement in Colombia?
Yes, my only arguement T8, is that logically, if the spirit is not divided, and if the spirit is not lying to some Christians, then not all are lead by the spirit.
Yes, I am in contradiction to all of you. True. So, logically, we cannot all be correct. Millions of JW's can be correct. Or T8 and only T8 can be correct. Or Nick and only Nick can be correct. Or Catholics can be correct.
Do you really not see my point?I doubt very much the holy spirit has only told you the truth T8?
I also believe the holy spirit has organized God's worshippers to carry out the preaching work in a united way, so that all are getting the same message….not, You giving one message and Nick telling people God burns people. The Christ is not divided, T8. You know this.
Quote No unity is not proof of anything.
T8, I've had this conversation with you like 5 times. I agree. I agree. What I'm saying is: Dis-unity IS proof of something.
True, unity doesn't neccessarily prove anything. But DIS-UNITY does.
I'm only trying to logically think about how the spirit would tell you one thing and nick something totally different, if it is the same spirit.Quote One of those absolutes is Yeshua is the messiah and I would say that another is that the Body of Christ is the Church. This rules out any denomination of man no matter how big it is.
While I don't use the word “church” and use the biblical word “congregation” NO, how exactly does “the body of Christ is the congregation” (which I agree with) rule out that the body of Christ would be organized?
They were organized in the first century. They had overseers, and gathered together. If you rejected the Christians, (God's people) you were not following God. You were following yourself.Quote Jesus body is not like any other organisation in the world.
Extremely true.Quote The JWs are a kingdom unto themselves. But we should be preaching the Kingdom of God, not campaigning for the JW Kingdom, the Mormon Church and Celestial Kingdom, or the Roman Catholic Church's version of Heaven and Hell.
In preaching the kingdom of God, did the true earliest Christians go to people and say: 'Believe in the kingdom, but don't become a Christian?' The two were synonomys… Synonamous? I hate that word.Quote They will all lead you astray and will take 10 percent of your income in the process, T8, I've actually asked you several times to not slander JW's in this way. We do not tithe. For the 27th time (literally) we do not tithe.
Quote And here in lies one of the saddest facts about all these kingdoms and agendas, that men who need a witness for the Kingdom are given a divided Christianity. This should never be, Yet, this is exactly what Jesus said true Christianity would do and be responsible for:
MATTHEW 10:34-36
“Do not think I came to put peace upon the earth; I came to put, not peace, but a sword. For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a young wife against her mother-in-law. Indeed, a man’s enemies will be persons of his own household.”Quote If we all just listen to scripture, and were filled an led by the Spirit, then none of this would need to be. But it exists because Babylon has made the whole world drunk on her wine. So drunk, that they will defend Babylon even if it means that they will be judged with her. As it turns out T8, one can be the offspring of Babylon and think they are worshipping God correctly and doing so without a church. They can adopt all the practices of babylon and not even know it. (Like Nick with hellfire.)
Quote Do you believe that Jesus would pour out the Holy Spirit on the empire of false Religion? If you believe that, you'd best give yourself a serious shake, and come to you senses! Texas, I've noticed you sometimes create false arguments that I don't believe in order to make me look silly. Nick does this all the time as well.
Quote So, you see, you're quite wrong in your reasoning, I find the words: “So, you see…” quite interesting. It makes it appear as though you actually looked at or discussed my “reasoning.” I have no proof you did, as you forget to mention anything I said.
Quote (david @ April 13 2009,18:25) Quote Oh! But the preaching activity is Organized, as you say, but it is organized by the Christ now invisibly present in Kingdom power. Who could organize it better than he? –texas.
I agree.
Quote As for the baptizing that you mentioned; you forgot to mention it was done by Holy Spirit, not by water! Big difference between the two eh? –texas
I did not actually mention baptism. I merely quoted Matthew 28:19,20 which had “baptism” in it.
Quote Water as done by Christendom's Religions or Holy Spirt as done by the Christ! Which do you prefer? For fun, I googled: “Christendom define.' Here are the definitions it gave:
Quote Definitions of christendom on the Web: * the collective body of Christians throughout the world and history (found predominantly in Europe and the Americas and Australia); “for a thousand …
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn* Christendom usually refers to Christianity as a territorial phenomenon. It can also refer to the part of the world in which Christianity prevails.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christendom* The Christian world
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Christendom* This derogatory term is used to refer to Protestant and Catholic groups, which are thought to have been established in the fourth century by the …
www.4truth.net/site/c.hiKXLbPNLrF/b.2950183/k.72A3/Jehovah8217s_Witnesses_Glossary_Words_and_Concepts.htm* The domain of Christ, a social and religious complex with specific boundaries, created by Constantine. …
www.oplnk.net/~ajackson/glossary/gloss_c.htmObviously, I do not consider myself as part of Christendom, or the vast majority of the world alienated from God. I use that word in a derogatory manner, as the definiton explains.
Quote Certainly Jesus is a suitable overseer, is he not? YES, and he, like his father is organized. It was Jesus that said: 'Every kingdom divided against itself will fall.' Well, from what I can tell, every individual on this site is a kingdom unto themself. They all fall under the category of “Christendom” in my opinion, and they all believe differently from each one. You cannot find two people on this site who have the same set of beliefs.
And yet, the ones Jesus is overseeing….they are united in belief, attitude, conduct, and are an international brotherhood, preaching the same kingdom message as Jesus commanded all over the earth, in these last days.Quote And who could do it more orderly than Jesus the Son of Jehovah God? –texas
Agreed.
Even when Jesus was on earth, teaching his disciples how to preach, he did it in an organized manner, sending them out by twos, teaching them what their message would be, etc.
Quote Do you believe that Jesus cannot send out individuals?
Of course he “can.” But I have yet to see two individuals who have gone on THEIR own paths and followed THEIR own beliefs who share these beliefs with one another. If Jesus sent out two individuals, I would have to think they would have the same message, and be teaching the same thing. As Jesus said: “Every kingdom divided against itself….” Yet, you don't have to look any further than this forum, to see that the individuals who are following themselves disagree with the other individuals who are following themselves. If they were following Christ, they would be united in belief and be preaching the same message.Quote Do you believe that he cannot train and teach them now from his heavenly vantage point by means of Holy Spirit?
I do believe this. But I do not see it among the indivduals who are clearly at odds with one another. If what Nick believes is right, then is T8 wrong? If what T8 believes is right, then are you wrong? ETc, etc, etc, etc.Quote You had better read again: John 14:26 and 16:13 1 John 2:27 that should show you that Jesus can get the complete job done very adequately, without the aid of any man on this earth! Right, he could have used rocks if he wanted. ““I tell YOU, If these remained silent, the stones would cry out.” Let's consider those scriptures:
JOHN 14:26
“But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU.”
Is the holy spirit sending different messages to different people? Is he telling some that God is a trinity and other that God isn't? To some that God tortures people, to others that he doesn't? To some that Jesus pre-existed, to others that he didn't? No.
And yet, the holy spirit does carry out what was promised. The question is, with who?JOHN 16:13
“However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming.”
This makes the point even more obvious. The holy spirit would guide Jesus followers in all the truth. So, if one person believes X is true and one person believes X is wrong, do you think the holy spirit guided both to the truth? No, at the very most, one is correct. It's possible both are wrong.Quote I should mention too that those sent out by Jesus will teach correctly, again, without the aid of any man on this earth, and it will be done in an orderly way!
And it is, in hundreds of languages, one united kingdom message is being sent out, in all the earth, to the sanctification of Jehovah's name.Quote Unless, of course, you believe that Jesus isn't capable of maintaining order from his heavenly vantage point!
Obviously he is. But I think perhaps you and I have a different idea of what “order” is. Order is the opposite of confusion and disagreement and strife and conflict and argumentation, etc.Quote As far as those Jesus sends out, finding anyone. I have found you, and many like you on these so-called Christain Boards –texas
This is the problem. Many people say this. But what of the billions of people who don't have computers, much less clean water or food? And even if these billions did have the internet, it seems they would have to search this out.
But Jesus said we should “GO” to them. (mat 28:19,20) The God of justice wants everyone to be given the chance to hear this most wonderful news, not just those with the internet who are already interested in the Bible. AND, He wants them to have the same message, not one message for Fred and another different message for George, and a completely different man made message for Betty.Quote and I believe that I have adequately preached the good news to you. –texas
The good news of the kingdom? (mat 24:14) You have “adequately” preached it to me? Did you even use the word “kingdom”? Have you ever went up to someone on the street who didn't already show an interest in the Bible and preach it to them?Quote Or perhaps you should request of Jehovah for his Holy Spirit so you will be able to understand his written word correctly.
What I do understand and what I know for a fact are these two things:
1. Jehovah is a God of order, and so is his son.
2. And, every individual who preaches individual beliefs disagrees with every other individual teaching his own set of beliefs.Quote Right now, you do a mere cursory reading of scripture and establish your beliefs on mere surface knowledge.
Completely incorrect. Those who know me on this forum and those who know me in real life understand that this is incorrect. It is true of many though. Often those people who FEEL Jesus in their heart and have no real need to study the Bible…. And so, in the end, they are following their own heart and not Gods word.Quote I should also mention that those taught and trained by the Christ now, do not have conflicting beliefs,
So, which one isn't following Christ–T8 (the supermoderator) or Nick (the other moderator)? Or are both not following Christ? You have basically just said that half the people on this forum are not taught or trained by Christ. And yes, that is the appropriate conclusion when we have conflicting beliefs.Quote Each one 'having the same mind and the same line of thought'. {1 Corinthians 1:10}
That's the scripture I usually use to show what true Christians should be and what the individuals who follow their own beliefs are not.Quote As far as having respect for Jehovah's organization, myself and those like me have a great deal of respect for Jehovah's organization, now operational in the invisible heavens! But you totally missed that point didn't you?
No. Jehovah has a spirit organisation in the invisible heavens, but his followers on earth are also organized. They are not killing each other or teaching conflicting doctrines with one another.Quote You didn't even know that, that organization was operational in the invisible heavens at this time, now did you?
I'm thinking you know much much much less about me than you think or give me credit for.Quote How could you, you are a follower of men, not the Christ!
If you are a follower of Christ, and if the Christ is not divided, then how many others are there that believe just as you do?
Perhaps you are new. Just a month ago, someone on here was saying how Nick was his spiritual brother because Nick also believes in Jesus, and then he found out that Nick believed in hellfire. You can't just go around saying everyone who believes in Jesus are united. Almost everyone in the world wars believed in Jesus, and they killed each other. This is not love or unity.
So, perhaps you think that there are many on here and other places that share your beliefs. Of course, there are many who share some of your beliefs. But the more time you spend delving into what the other person actually believes, the more you realize that you are alone in your beliefs….And, if you are the only one who believes, just as you do….you are probably wrong….unless you are special and the only one God granted the truth to.Quote I will close by telling you that whenever I can I follow the direction given at Hebrews 10:24,25. You see, although you are not aware of it as yet, there are many us who gather together when opportunity permits. Enough said!
You assume a lot. I am aware of it. But meeting together does not mean that you agree with those you meet, any more than it means you agree with those on here you meet together with. Over and over I've heard of people who meet together in homes, or people who even go to another church but disagree with this or that, but go anyway just to carry out that command in Hebrews.It is my thought that if someone says X is right and anther says X is wrong, that, logically they cannot both be right.
And also, logically, they probably didn't get their idea from the same source–unless it was a source who wanted to cause confusion.david
This, for example. I responded to everything you said. You didn't respond to anything I said. whenever people avoid questions or actual conversations it makes me wonder what they don't want to discuss and why.david
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