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I believe now that the Christ did not come into kingdom power in the year 1914 as they claim that he did, but, that, that event is still yet future. I believe that because, of what the Apostle John stated at Revelation 12:7-10 John stated in that passage of scripture, this: “And War broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled, but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: NOW have come to pass the salvation and the power and THE KINGDOM OF OUR GOD and the AUTHORITY of his Christ, because the accuser of our Brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!”
Now, we know that it was Michael who was exercizing that authority,by throwing Satan and his demon angels out of the heavens, so, doesn`t that tell us that Michael WAS Christ Jesus, since it was the Christ who was in possession of that Authority?
Notice now the mental condition that Satan is in when he is thrown down to the earth. Look at Revelation 12:12 this is the scripture that made me come to the conclusion that I have, for it tells us, this: “On this account be glad you heavens and you who reside in them. “WOE FOR THE EARTH AND FOR THE SEA , because the Devil has come down to you, HAVING GREAT ANGER, knowing he HAS A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.“ Now, what is Satan determined to do now, knowing his time is short? What would be on his mind? Wouldn't he know, knowing that his time is short, that it is almost time for him to be abyssed by the Christ, and be imprisoned for that thousand year period. {Revelation 20:1-3}
Would not that knowledge bring him into, almost a state of rage? Remember what John foretold in the Revelation account about Satan's anger, and what that anger caused him to do? Remember this statement? “Now when the dragon saw that it was hurled down to the earth, it PERSECUTED THE WOMAN who had gave birth to the male child.” {Revelation 20:1-3} Then verse 17 “And the dragon grew wrathful at the Woman, and went off to wage War with REMAING ONES of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.”
Would that not be the time period that the foretold persecution of the anointed class would begin? Did not the Christ foretell this persecution of his anointed Brothers? Notice Matthew 24:9: “Then people will deliver you up to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be objects of hatred by ALL THE NATIONS on account of my name.” So, have we seen since the year 1914 this scripture fulfilled? Are there a body of Christians on this earth, that have been killed World-Wide, actually hated and persecuted on a World-Wide scale since that year? I know of none! Does anyone else?
Now, focus your attention back to the statement made by the Apostle John, where he said: WOE FOR THE EARTH AND FOR FOR THE SEA, BECAUSE THE DEVIL HAS COME DOWN TO YOU HAVING GREAT ANGER, KNOWING HE HAS A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME!” Would not that statement mark the outbreak of the great tribulation on this earth? Personally, I believe that it would, and didn't Jesus say, “that unless those day were cut short, no flesh would be saved, but ON ACCOUNT OF THE CHOSEN ONES THOSE DAYS WILL BE CUT SHORT.” Why on account of the chosen ones? Wasn't it because Jesus knew that the devil, having such great anger, and declaring war on the seed of the woman, would have every last one of them put to death if there was time to do that? That is the reason those days will be cut short, to save the lives of the remaining anointed class! I now believe that to be exactly the case! {Matthew 24:21,22}
Now, since the great tribulation has not broken out as yet, and neither has the persecution of the anointed remnant begun, I believe that Satan has not as yet been thrown! That of necessity means that the Christ has not as yet taken up Kingly Power, so the Watchtower Society is wrong again in one of their teachings, are they not?
Now, ask yourself, at what period of time does the harvest of all of the anointed class, and the gathering and separating work of the sheeplike ones begin? Does the Bible give us any hint as to when that work of gathering would begin? I believe, that it most certainly does!
A reading of Matthew 24:29-31 will answer this question for us, as to the gathering of the anointed class, for there it states the following: “Immediately AFTER the TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven, and then ALL THE TRIBES OF THE Earth will beat themelve in lamentation, and THEY WILL SEE the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they WILL GATHER {the Harvest begins} his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.” Now, since we are not yet even in the great tribulation as yet, this means that this gathering work has not begun as yet, neither is the separating work between the sheep and the goats taken place because that gathering work does not begin until the great tribulation has run its full course, according to the Bible! That work was to be done by the angels that were sent out by the Christ!{Matthew 25:31-46}
Remember, it said, AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS, would the harvest season begin!
Now keep in mind that the great tribulation has not, as yet, broken out on this earth, that is something that cannot be argued! So, as yet we are not in the time of the harvest! That is because the great tribulation has not begun as yet! Only AFTER it has run its full course will that separating work begin. So, once again the Watchtower Society has jumped the gun in doing the gathering of individuals, that, they will claim, will survive the great tribulation and Armageddon. Neither of those gatherings have even begun as yet! As I said, will not begin until After the great tribulation has run its full course! That is what the Bible tells us, and who would wish to argue with the writers of the Bible? That would be tantamount to arguing with Jehovah himself, since he inspired the writers of the Bible; and just whom would wish an argument with him?
In conclusion then; if Satan has not been thrown down to this earth as yet, and since his presence would mark the outbreak of the great tribulation, and that too, has not begun, that of necessity means that the Christ has not taken kingly power since the year 1914. As yet he still hasn't taken kingly power, but when he does, and then throws Satan from the invisible heavens, the great tribulation will then begin; the persecution of the anointed class will begin. After that tribulation the harvest season will be upon us. First the anointed remnant will be gathered, after that the separating work between the sheep and the goats will begin. That will be the time period that the Christ comes into kingdom power! Not 1914 at all!
Maybe the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society feels that they are doing the Christ a favor by saving him the bother of sending out those angels to gather the anointed class and the sheeplike ones, by doing that work for him!
This ends my discussion on the presence of Christ in Kingly Power!
Hi teaxas,
You say
“Now, we know that it was Michael who was exercizing that authority,by throwing Satan and his demon angels out of the heavens, so, doesn`t that tell us that Michael WAS Christ Jesus, since it was the Christ who was in possession of that Authority?”No.
Jesus has been given all authority on heaven and earth.[mt28]
It would be a illogical blunder to think mighty princely angels are not under that authority too.Rev19
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS
Heb1
13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Hi Texas,
The separation of the sheep and goats is at the end of the millenial time when God rescues as many as He can according to their works towards the brothers of Jesus and the shameless residue of humanity is cast into the fire.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2009,07:46) Hi Texas,
The separation of the sheep and goats is at the end of the millenial time when God rescues as many as He can according to their works towards the brothers of Jesus and the shameless residue of humanity is cast into the fire.
Hello Nick!
No! The separating work is done when the Christ first comes into kingdom power, during the time of the harvest, which comes at the conclusion of our own system of things! Have you never read Matthew 25:31-46? Verse 31 tells you that, “When the son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him,then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the Nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left” … Now,this separating work, done by the angels under the direction of the Christ is done during the harvest season, and the harvest season comes at the conclusion of our own system of things. Matthew 13:30 is proof of that, for it says there: “Let both grow together until the harvest and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.” Now Matthew 13:39 will show you exactly who those reapers are, for it says there, in part: …”The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the REAPERS ARE ANGELS. {Matthew 13:24-30–36-43}Matthew 13:49,50 is scriptural proof of that, for it says there: “That is how it will be in the conclusion of the system of things; the angels will go out and separate the wicked from among the righteous and will cast them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.”
So, you see, the separating work that you say comes at the millenial time, is not the separating work that was to be done during the time of the harvest. Those are two separate accounts and you are talking about something that is done at the END OF THE THOUSAND YEAR REIGN OF CHRIST. That reasoning is, of course, scripture twisting, and you seem to do quite well at that! Was I to be you, I would stop doing that twisting, because at some point in time it will cost you your life! Texas!
Quote (Texas @ April 23 2009,05:26) I believe now that the Christ did not come into kingdom power in the year 1914 as they claim that he did, but, that, that event is still yet future. I believe that because, of what the Apostle John stated at Revelation 12:7-10 John stated in that passage of scripture, this: “And War broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled, but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: NOW have come to pass the salvation and the power and THE KINGDOM OF OUR GOD and the AUTHORITY of his Christ, because the accuser of our Brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!”
TexasDo you know when this event took place?
It's in the bible.Georg
Quote (Cindy @ April 23 2009,11:25) Quote (Texas @ April 23 2009,05:26) I believe now that the Christ did not come into kingdom power in the year 1914 as they claim that he did, but, that, that event is still yet future. I believe that because, of what the Apostle John stated at Revelation 12:7-10 John stated in that passage of scripture, this: “And War broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled, but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: NOW have come to pass the salvation and the power and THE KINGDOM OF OUR GOD and the AUTHORITY of his Christ, because the accuser of our Brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!”
TexasDo you know when this event took place?
It's in the bible.Georg
Cindy!No! No one knows the exact day or hour that, that event will take place! we only have an approximation of when that will be! But you forgot to quote the rest of that scripture that shows us all, approximately when that Kingdom will come into being! The rest of that scripture, says, “Woe for the earth and for the sea {of people} because the Devil has come down to you, having GREAT ANGER. knowing he has a short period of time. This WOE FOR THE EARTH is what will mark the outbreak of the great tribulation, which is the time period that would have to be cut short for the sake of the chosen ones. Satan, in the state of rage he is in would slaughter all of the remaining ones of the seed of the Woman if he had the time to do it. Jesus foretold that in Matthew 24:9;21,22!
No! I could not tell you exactly the precise moment that event will occur, because as I said, no one knows the day or hour for that event to occur. We do know though that the great tribulation has not as yet broken out on this earth. That should tell us that satan has not as yet been thrown down to this earth, and that of necessity means that the Christ is not in kingdom power as yet, to do that throwing down. No! the Christ is not yet in Kingsdom power, but when he does finally arrive, get ready to duck, because all particular hell will break out on this earth when he does finally arrive! Texas!
Texas
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
What sanctuary?
When Daniel heard this it made him sick, because he thought it meant, their captivity was extended another six and a half years.
Twelve years later, and less then three years to go on their 70 year captivity, he has not forgotten the 2300 days, he ask God for forgiveness and mercy, Dan. 9.
So the angel comes to give him the meaning of that vision.Dan 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
But the angel never mentions the 2300 days again, instead gives him another prophecy, the 70 weeks. In this prophecy he is told that the counting for the 70 weeks begins with the command to rebuild the city and her walls; this is also the clue when to start counting the 2300 days/years, 457 BC, add 2300 years you come to 1843.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
God's sanctuary was cleansed.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Who is the woman that brought forth the man child?
Woman is symbolic for church, Israel was the church in the wilderness, she brought forth the man child, Jesus.Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep (have) the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The remnant of her, Israels, seed, were all the Jews scattered all over the world.
Satan can't harm any one himself, read Job, but he can influence people to do his dirty work.
By 1933 Satan had found his man, Adolph Hitler, his hatred toward the Jews was the tribulation prophesied by Jeremiah 30:7, Daniel 12:1, and Jesus Mat. 24:21.
If the days had not been shortened, Mat. 24:22, Germany lost the war, no flesh, Jew, would be alive today.If you want to have any success in making people believe what you say, this is how you should do it, and even that is no guarantee, not on this side.
Georg
Quote (Texas @ April 23 2009,09:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2009,07:46) Hi Texas,
The separation of the sheep and goats is at the end of the millenial time when God rescues as many as He can according to their works towards the brothers of Jesus and the shameless residue of humanity is cast into the fire.
Hello Nick!
No! The separating work is done when the Christ first comes into kingdom power, during the time of the harvest, which comes at the conclusion of our own system of things! Have you never read Matthew 25:31-46? Verse 31 tells you that, “When the son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him,then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the Nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left” … Now,this separating work, done by the angels under the direction of the Christ is done during the harvest season, and the harvest season comes at the conclusion of our own system of things. Matthew 13:30 is proof of that, for it says there: “Let both grow together until the harvest and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.” Now Matthew 13:39 will show you exactly who those reapers are, for it says there, in part: …”The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the REAPERS ARE ANGELS. {Matthew 13:24-30–36-43}Matthew 13:49,50 is scriptural proof of that, for it says there: “That is how it will be in the conclusion of the system of things; the angels will go out and separate the wicked from among the righteous and will cast them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.”
So, you see, the separating work that you say comes at the millenial time, is not the separating work that was to be done during the time of the harvest. Those are two separate accounts and you are talking about something that is done at the END OF THE THOUSAND YEAR REIGN OF CHRIST. That reasoning is, of course, scripture twisting, and you seem to do quite well at that! Was I to be you, I would stop doing that twisting, because at some point in time it will cost you your life! Texas!
Hi texas,
This event of course is the Judgement and it is described also in Rev 20 occurring after all have been raised and the sea has given up it's dead.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2009,07:46) Hi Texas,
The separation of the sheep and goats is at the end of the millenial time when God rescues as many as He can according to their works towards the brothers of Jesus and the shameless residue of humanity is cast into the fire.
NickMat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Which nations make up the sheep, and which nations make up the goats?
Georg
Hi Georg,
You misunderstand again.
All the nations are gathered before him with no natural man who has ever lived excepted.[The sons of God have passed to life and are spiritual men]
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2009,21:36) Hi Georg,
You misunderstand again.
All the nations are gathered before him with no natural man who has ever lived excepted.[The sons of God have passed to life and are spiritual men]
You did not answer my question.Georg
Quote No.
Jesus has been given all authority on heaven and earth.[mt28]
It would be a illogical blunder to think mighty princely angels are not under that authority too.Nick, you have used this flawed logic many many times on myself.
You believe that since we are told Jesus has all authority and Jesus is ruler over the angels, that he cannot be himself an angel.
Well Obama is ruler over Americans. And yes, he can be and is an american.
So, no one here is suggesting that the mighty angels you speak of are not under Jesus' authority.
The question you have to ask is:
“Why do I think that it is impossible for Jesus to have authority over the angels and still be an angel?”Setting scriptures aside, Nick, you seem to think that the above idea is logically impossible. Well it is not.
You take the word “angel” to be a word that defines the nature of that being. Well, we know that this is not true. That is just a descriptive word, used of men and spirits.
The word “president” for instance does not set aside that being (man) as a different being. The president is ruler over all men in that country, but the president himself is also a man.
“angel” is a fairly generic word that just means “messenger.”
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