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Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,02:19) Further more: God incubating Jesus would make him the MOTHER – not the FATHER of the Son!
Hi JAI can't say that I disagree with you here. Not only that but if Jesus had a beginning as the “begotten son” implying that Jesus was litterally born from the Father then when was he concieved?
So to be true to the analogy…
If Jesus was always in the Father (like a child is in the mother) and his beginning was when he “became” or was born as the “begotten son” then when was he concieved?
Sorry but all of this sounds like Greek Mythology to me!
WJ
Kathi,
(Aside from my error in the poll -) can you see that there is 100% agreement to your poll question…
Seeing that everyone agrees – what is the point of the thread?
Please may I suggest that it may be better to ask the REAL question that you really meant to ask?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 23 2011,02:41) Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,02:19) Further more: God incubating Jesus would make him the MOTHER – not the FATHER of the Son!
Hi JAI can't say that I disagree with you here. Not only that but if Jesus had a beginning as the “begotten son” implying that Jesus was litterally born from the Father then when was he concieved?
So to be true to the analogy…
If Jesus was always in the Father (like a child is in the mother) and his beginning was when he “became” or was born as the “begotten son” then when was he concieved?
Sorry but all of this sounds like Greek Mythology to me!
WJ
Keith! If you believe Jesus was not the firstborn of all creation, what are you going to do with Col.1:15 and Rev.3:14…..
God can do anything. If He can make Humans out of the dust of the earth, i am certain He can create Jesus…..
If you have to ask how Jesus was conceived, you are limiting God.
Eye hath not seen, and ear hath not heard the things prepared for them that Love God……
Peace and love IreneIrene,
I don't believe this was the point Keith was making.
We are discussing the thread topic that Kathi set.
Kathi is asking if when does a biological father become a biological father – and we agree that it is at conception.
We are waiting to see what kathi has to say about her thread topic.
Ok…seems like there is some anticipation here on the purpose of this poll.
Well, I designed this poll mostly for Istari and my benefit because I was trying to communicate something to him that seemed obvious to me but he couldn't seem to see it. So, I think I have accomplished that somewhat anyway.
The fact that I am leading to is that a man or woman that conceive a baby is a father or mother from the moment of conception, as least from the biological point of view. I realize that we use the term 'mother to be' or 'father to be' and as an unexpected benefit of this poll to me, I think those terms should not be used because that could lead into the reasoning of pro-abortion. So, that was just a side thought I had this morning. I think that we really need to see that life begins at conception and claim fatherhood and motherhood from that point. I believe that honors the miracle of life and sends a clearer message to the pro-abortion community.
So, no more 'mother to be' or 'father to be' from me if there has already been a conception.
Now for a greater intent of the poll…
IF…
The Son was indeed born/begotten from the Father before the ages…
could He have been always within the Father before that, waiting to be begotten?
That would mean that He was eternally, in the past, as Son and God was always a Father with a Son.
Also it means that God was self-sufficient to save His creation if the need be and be seen through the Son if the need be.
It would mean that God was always prepared to relate to us and not be distant from us. The Son was always within Him ready to come out relate to us personally.I'm not talking about there having been a conception but more simply of the Son's eternal existence, He always was within the Father…unbegotten till He was begotten before the ages. In that way, the relationship of Father/Son was eternal yet there was a true Father/Son relationship, not two persons where one takes the title 'Father' and the other takes the title 'Son.'
I hope that helps you understand.
KathiKathi,
Thanks for the understanding and the re-direction.
But frankly – No, it does not make any better sense seeing that “Biological Father” is a [human/Fleshly] “Concept”. God would not need to Conceive in the “BODY” but only in Mind and thought (Shhh..Don't let Gene see this idea …)
To soften the blow I think you can make a reasonable claim for Father/Son (excluding Mother) in that God did not create MAN – And – Woman at the beginning but MAN only.
It was only when Adam did not find a companion from among the animals that God took the woman out of the Adam and made TWO persons (who were to rejoin together and become once again ONE FLESH in what we call now “Marriage”)
So how was Adam to procreate if he were by himself – speculate here…!
And if there were ONLY Adam and he procreated offspring there would only be Sons – and no daughters on the earth. So it is fascinating that Scriptures says there will be SONS of God (But Not Daughters – although we are not to read into that too closely given Scriptural language – There is mentions CHILDREN of GOD which does not exclude Women/Females)Opening the question up now that the “Thread Topic is agreed”:
The next question the, Kathi, is IF Jesus is the Son of God – What of the other Angels – are they not Sons of God? And were they not INSIDE GOD, the Father also?
Quote (Lightenup @ April 23 2011,15:01) Ok…seems like there is some anticipation here on the purpose of this poll. Well, I designed this poll mostly for Istari and my benefit because I was trying to communicate something to him that seemed obvious to me but he couldn't seem to see it. So, I think I have accomplished that somewhat anyway.
The fact that I am leading to is that a man or woman that conceive a baby is a father or mother from the moment of conception, as least from the biological point of view. I realize that we use the term 'mother to be' or 'father to be' and as an unexpected benefit of this poll to me, I think those terms should not be used because that could lead into the reasoning of pro-abortion. So, that was just a side thought I had this morning. I think that we really need to see that life begins at conception and claim fatherhood and motherhood from that point. I believe that honors the miracle of life and sends a clearer message to the pro-abortion community.
So, no more 'mother to be' or 'father to be' from me if there has already been a conception.
Now for a greater intent of the poll…
IF…
The Son was indeed born/begotten from the Father before the ages…
could He have been always within the Father before that, waiting to be begotten?
That would mean that He was eternally, in the past, as Son and God was always a Father with a Son.
Also it means that God was self-sufficient to save His creation if the need be and be seen through the Son if the need be.
It would mean that God was always prepared to relate to us and not be distant from us. The Son was always within Him ready to come out relate to us personally.I'm not talking about there having been a conception but more simply of the Son's eternal existence, He always was within the Father…unbegotten till He was begotten before the ages. In that way, the relationship of Father/Son was eternal yet there was a true Father/Son relationship, not two persons where one takes the title 'Father' and the other takes the title 'Son.'
I hope that helps you understand.
Kathi
Kathiyou really like to make or bring down God the creator of the universe to the level of a man .
if you could go and see the universe millions light years away and what you see ?marvel after marvel colorful with variation in all ,
what kind of God could create all off it ?
how big is he ,what is man compered to what as been created ?and now think that the first of God creation is his son ,and remember all the things you have seen is not spirit ,
billions of solar systems like ours ,and they as well are not spirits,
so what is man ?or an angel that is spirit like God .?
Pierre
Kathi,
There seems to be a secondary “Poll” in this thread – and that is “hands up everyone who thinks Kathi should drop her idea of Jesus INSIDE GOD”?
Kathi, you can still hold your idea – just not foist in on us for we cannot hold it as any kind of truth or reality. You thought you had an idea – we all do – but there comes a time when you must see sense and stop – no matter how much you think you are on the brink of a truth – Satan will drive you delinquency with his Carrot on a stick always tantalisingly close to your desire…
Please think very hard on this issue for your own sake – and our love for you as Sister-seeking-after-truth!
Quote (Istari @ April 23 2011,06:47) Irene, I don't believe this was the point Keith was making.
We are discussing the thread topic that Kathi set.
Kathi is asking if when does a biological father become a biological father – and we agree that it is at conception.
We are waiting to see what kathi has to say about her thread topic.
Istari! The reason I said what I did to Keith is, He does not believe Jesus had a beginning. He believes He always existed. And that is why I gave those Scriptures…..
Peace and Love IreneHi Irene,
I understand but if we pursue it then this is how a thread gets quickly off-topic. I know – and knew – exactly what Keith's alto-issue was but I am diverting it back to the topic of the thread.I do understand both sides – can you see that I'm trying to keep the topic “on-topic”…
Its hard to do in a written manner – in real – round a table – there would just be a “shhush – yeah yeah -we know – we know – lets get back to the topic at hand …”
Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,17:01) Kathi, There seems to be a secondary “Poll” in this thread – and that is “hands up everyone who thinks Kathi should drop her idea of Jesus INSIDE GOD”?
Kathi, you can still hold your idea – just not foist in on us for we cannot hold it as any kind of truth or reality. You thought you had an idea – we all do – but there comes a time when you must see sense and stop – no matter how much you think you are on the brink of a truth – Satan will drive you delinquency with his Carrot on a stick always tantalisingly close to your desire…
Please think very hard on this issue for your own sake – and our love for you as Sister-seeking-after-truth!
Istari,
I know you mean well and that post was a very politely put rejection. If I didn't see that most Christians believe that the Son was eternal and begotten before the ages, I would be more inclined to consider what you have said. In other words, you don't speak for the majority of Christians on this.Thanks anyway,
KathiKathi,
Even the Trinitarians (as exampled by WJ and Trinis are by far the largest group of “Eternal Son” believers) do not believe that Jesus was Begotten before time.
Until i heard you saying what you are trying to say hear i'd never (thought provokingly) heard of this idea…
Kathi, unless i have been placing my head in the sand can you tell which Church believes this idea of yours, please?
kathi,
I know people say “Mary gave birth to THE SON OF GOD” – is this a corruption of your idea or is your idea a corruption of their idea?
Sonship in Spiritual terms is nothing to do with PROCREATION – because Spirits do not Procreate.
Spirits CREATE – but do not PROCREATE – so Sonship is not about a personal offspring (a Son) it is about DOING THAT WHICH their Creator DOES – hence why Jesus is BEGOTTEN to [TRUE] SONSHIP at the time when he was raised up – to be EXACTLY like God in Glory and Power – Never Dying – Never Die-able – ETERNAL – THE ETERNAL SON.
Jesus cannot be the ETERNAL SON in your Scenario because he DIED – and went down to Sheol….Eternal Cannot DIE….BUT NOW Jesus is ETERNAL.
Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,16:28) Kathi, Thanks for the understanding and the re-direction.
But frankly – No, it does not make any better sense seeing that “Biological Father” is a [human/Fleshly] “Concept”. God would not need to Conceive in the “BODY” but only in Mind and thought (Shhh..Don't let Gene see this idea …)
To soften the blow I think you can make a reasonable claim for Father/Son (excluding Mother) in that God did not create MAN – And – Woman at the beginning but MAN only.
It was only when Adam did not find a companion from among the animals that God took the woman out of the Adam and made TWO persons (who were to rejoin together and become once again ONE FLESH in what we call now “Marriage”)
So how was Adam to procreate if he were by himself – speculate here…!
And if there were ONLY Adam and he procreated offspring there would only be Sons – and no daughters on the earth. So it is fascinating that Scriptures says there will be SONS of God (But Not Daughters – although we are not to read into that too closely given Scriptural language – There is mentions CHILDREN of GOD which does not exclude Women/Females)Opening the question up now that the “Thread Topic is agreed”:
The next question the, Kathi, is IF Jesus is the Son of God – What of the other Angels – are they not Sons of God? And were they not INSIDE GOD, the Father also?
Istari,you wrote:
Quote But frankly – No, it does not make any better sense seeing that “Biological Father” is a [human/Fleshly] “Concept”. God would not need to Conceive in the “BODY” but only in Mind and thought (Shhh..Don't let Gene see this idea …) So, just so you are understanding me or trying to anyway, I don't see a conception at all but an always existent Son within the Father. I don't believe that God willed a Son into existence with His thoughts. That is how He might have brought the raw materials of the physical realm…He created something new just from His will. As far as His Son, He has the exact nature of His Father and that is eternal nature. The only way He could have the exact nature of the Father is if He were also eternal.
Quote To soften the blow I think you can make a reasonable claim for Father/Son (excluding Mother) in that God did not create MAN – And – Woman at the beginning but MAN only. We all know that God is not limited to create another man/woman by the system of reproduction and I guess you are admitting that by that statement I quoted. Good point!
Quote So how was Adam to procreate if he were by himself – speculate here…! It was never God's intention to leave Adam without a wife. Before He formed Adam, He already created mankind and made them male and female. I think that God was just giving Adam perspective. Bringing Eve along after He gave Adam a chance to be alone, gave Adam a better appreciation for his helper when she came.
Quote The next question the, Kathi, is IF Jesus is the Son of God – What of the other Angels – are they not Sons of God? And were they not INSIDE GOD, the Father also? The angels were not inside God. They were created out of new things otherwise angels would have God nature and would be said to be begotten and not created. God is outside of creation, He did not become creation. Angels are only considered sons because they were created by God, He was their source by His will, not from the eternal substance of God. Only the one who became flesh was begotten as a Son.
Kathi
Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,19:56) Kathi, Even the Trinitarians (as exampled by WJ and Trinis are by far the largest group of “Eternal Son” believers) do not believe that Jesus was Begotten before time.
Until i heard you saying what you are trying to say hear i'd never (thought provokingly) heard of this idea…
Kathi, unless i have been placing my head in the sand can you tell which Church believes this idea of yours, please?
Istari,Quote Kathi, unless i have been placing my head in the sand can you tell which Church believes this idea of yours, please? Churches all over agree with the Nicene Creed, other creeds say that He was begotten before the ages also:
We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;
of the same essence as the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
and was made human.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried.
The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again with glory
to judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will never end.And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life.
He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
He spoke through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.
We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
and to life in the world to come. Amen.Kathi
Kathi,
The Creed is MANMADE… And you know that it has been messed around with over time …
How can they be “Co-Eternal” if one was “BEGOTTEN”.
Kathi, explain to me what “BEGOTTEN” means in this context, to you.
And explain how Jesus is “ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN” (What on earth or in Heaven does that means anyway…!) if he DIED…!!!
Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,20:01) kathi, I know people say “Mary gave birth to THE SON OF GOD” – is this a corruption of your idea or is your idea a corruption of their idea?
Sonship in Spiritual terms is nothing to do with PROCREATION – because Spirits do not Procreate.
Spirits CREATE – but do not PROCREATE – so Sonship is not about a personal offspring (a Son) it is about DOING THAT WHICH their Creator DOES – hence why Jesus is BEGOTTEN to [TRUE] SONSHIP at the time when he was raised up – to be EXACTLY like God in Glory and Power – Never Dying – Never Die-able – ETERNAL – THE ETERNAL SON.
Jesus cannot be the ETERNAL SON in your Scenario because he DIED – and went down to Sheol….Eternal Cannot DIE….BUT NOW Jesus is ETERNAL.
Istari,you said:
Quote I know people say “Mary gave birth to THE SON OF GOD” – is this a corruption of your idea or is your idea a corruption of their idea? I believe they say this with the understanding that the Son of God pre-existed Mary but the child born from Mary was still the Son of God even though He became flesh. She gave birth to Him in order for Him to become flesh…the child born was Emmanuel. She gave birth to the 'God with us'…the true pre-existent Son of God who became flesh.
Quote Sonship in Spiritual terms is nothing to do with PROCREATION – because Spirits do not Procreate. Procreation, in the way I have used it means simply to beget…to bring a child into manifested existence from their hidden existence within their parent, not to conceive necessarily although that is part of the process that leads humans to beget I don't think that conception was involved in begetting the only begotten Son before the ages. I believe He always existed as a person, a son within the Father from eternity and then was begotten…possibly begotten by the Father's word, not necessarily through some labor and delivery process.
Quote Spirits CREATE – but do not PROCREATE – so Sonship is not about a personal offspring (a Son) it is about DOING THAT WHICH their Creator DOES – hence why Jesus is BEGOTTEN to [TRUE] SONSHIP at the time when he was raised up – to be EXACTLY like God in Glory and Power – Never Dying – Never Die-able – ETERNAL – THE ETERNAL SON. Well only God creates purely from His will. Any other spirit creature does not create or procreate. God says that He beget a Son and He is spirit, therefore, God as spirit, does beget as Son.
The Son is begotten in a few different ways at different times:
1. Before the ages as a Son with the same nature as the Father.
2. Born in Mary when He came in the flesh.
3. Begotten from the dead (His flesh died, not the part of Christ that pre-existed the flesh).Quote Jesus cannot be the ETERNAL SON in your Scenario because he DIED – and went down to Sheol….Eternal Cannot DIE….BUT NOW Jesus is ETERNAL. Like I said, only the flesh died, that which pre-existed flesh returned to God and after three days was reunited with the flesh and glorified.
Kathi
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