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Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 04 2010,01:44) SF,
Satan fell from grace but did not leave heaven. Up until Jesus completed his commission, Satan was allowed to be in Heaven.Satan set a challenge to God, that man could exist without Him. Should God have just thrown Satan down, Satan would have said, 'See , God is afraid. He cannot stand to be challenged. The first and only challenge and He won't even give a chance to work it through, see if i was right, and what if I Am?'
Thus, this wise God allowed Satan to oversee his theory knowing that the end would be the demise of the deceiver, Satan, himself.
But that, being made in the image of Himself, it was completly right that mankind should have the CHOICE and fully participate in the 'experiment'. So God removed His Holy Spirit so man would need to reach for it, if he so desired.
Only when Jesus showed that it was possible for man to reach for God, abide in the Holy Spirit of God and live for God, that it was the only way, then, then, then, Satan was proved utterly wrong and, 'there was no place found for him before the face of God', 'innocence until proof of guilt', of a sorts.
Hi JustAskin,Could you define the “heaven” you speak of?
The reason I ask is because I would assume you would not be speaking of the heaven of God's abode where ONLY the righteous do dwell.
Matthew 6:10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
You couldn't be speaking of the heaven that earth is to become like where there is NO sin or NO war, where no one opposes God because all are united in His Spirit, following His Will, being incapable of sin.
So what “heaven” are you speaking of where this saw-tawn fell?
Luke 20:34 And Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Who is this saw-tawn or adversary you speak of?…surely it could not be one of the above angels that live in heaven with God no longer able to die because they are worthy of eternal life.
Once again I ask, DEFINE this “heaven” you speak of.
Revelation 17:9 Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. 12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”
Revelation 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born……(YLT) 7 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon, and the dragon did war, and his messengers, 8 and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven;
Judges 5:19 Kings came — they fought; Then fought kings of Canaan, In Taanach, by the waters of Megiddo; Gain of money they took not! 20 From the heavens they fought: The stars from their highways fought with Sisera.
There is NO scriptural bases to say that the dragon that fell from heaven was a rebel angel of God being kicked out of heaven.
The symbolism given in the above scriptures are directly shown to relate to HUMAN BEINGS!!
There is NO truth in the doctrine of fallen angels, and to define the “heaven” where war occurred, as being in God's righteous abode, I believe is extremely blasphemous to YHWH.
Quote (Baker @ Oct. 04 2010,00:18) Are you competing with Ed, and terraricca to be # 1? 
Georg
HI Georg,What's this suppose to mean?
Are you now rating us in some way?Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 04 2010,03:33) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 03 2010,12:41) Hi JustAskin, The point I make is: Uzzah's death was probably an accident,
rather than what the scribe of the king recorded! (2Sam.6:7)
This is similar to the story of Job recorded in the book of Job.Jodi asserts that God (according to Jodi) caused Job's affliction.
Ignoring The Bible records that ‘Satan’ is behind Job's affliction!
Both Elihu and YHVH state Job spoke words without knowledge!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
Ed J,1) You are completely ignoring the fact that I believe the scriptures show that the adversary is a Messenger of God.
2) You are ignoring what I am saying and thus are not properly debating with me.
3) I have never denied that the adversary inflicted Job, (A)in fact I have said that the adversary afflicted Job (B)but that he did so through the Holy Spirit.
4) The FIRE that came down was called the FIRE of God from heaven!!
5) If the saw-tawn is a messenger of God like the saw-tawn is in Numbers, (A)then it can be said that the adversary brought the infliction AND God brought the infliction.
6) As I have said before, the saw-tawn brought the affliction (A)but it was done so ultimately by God's Will!!
7) BOTH God and the saw-tawn did so for the SAME PURPOSE, (A)because Job needed instruction and refinement, (B)because Job was living with a hedge around him, and he was extremely ignorant of God.
Hi Jodi,This last Post (of yours) is a little more manageable,
and since you want me to address everything you say, I will.1) Please show (using Scripture) that Satan is (according to Jodi) a Messenger of God?
2) What makes you ‘think’ you get to decide what is “proper”?
3) The adversary is Satan the devil!
A) It seem to me you were contesting this FACT.
B) You are making A PRETTY BIG CLAIM HERE? This claim REQUIRES PROOF; do you have any?
4) Are you saying: the fire that fell from heaven killing Job's
servants and sheep was (according to Jodi) the HolySpirit? (1Thess.5:21)
A) Was the HolySpirit the fire (according to Jodi) that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah as well?5) Please show this claim as well?
A) If a Judge releases a criminal from prison and the criminal kills, was the Judge then the murderer?6) It was a test of “Free Will” to prove Job's integrity to all the watching Angels without God's interference:
that in the face of cruel adversity, Job's “Free Will” would not falter in devotion to (my God) JEHOVAH!
A) You are implying that is was God's desire (according to Jodi) to torture Job?7) So Satan and God (according to Jodi) are now partners?
A) None of the people mentioned in the book of Job were aware of the malevolent evil entity called Satan the devil!
B) Job was ignorant of the FACT that the malevolent evil entity called Satan the devil was the one causing his affliction!Did I debate with you properly in this Post; Jodi?
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Jodi,
If you have anything else you want me to address,
Please keep the points you wish to make to a minimum.
And only ask one question per Post: so I can elaborate without
the Post being so big than no-one will read it; my goal is for others my Posts!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 04 2010,03:14) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 03 2010,04:17) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 02 2010,04:36) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 01 2010,17:42) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 01 2010,17:02) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 01 2010,11:51) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 01 2010,05:13) Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2010,11:43)
3) Job then proceeded to blame God for him being an adversary against himself ? ? ?
Hi Ed J,3.) Job blamed God for his affliction, and rightly so.
Hi Jodi,What were the words that Job spoke without knowledge (mentioned by both
Elihu in 34:35, 35:16 and YHVH in 38:2), if it wasn't for blaming God for his affliction?Job 34:35 Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.
Job 35:16 Therefore doth Job open his mouth in vain; he multiplieth words without knowledge.
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed J,I just want to be clear before I answer your question on what you are saying here.
Are you asserting that Job was accused of speaking without knowledge because he wrongly accused God for his infliction?
Hi Jodi,The question is pretty straight forward…
What were Jobs words without knowledge,
if they were not for blaming God for his affliction?Looking forward to your response!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Good Morning Ed J,Jobs lack of wisdom was in the fact that he questioned God as being a righteous judge.
Job 19:5 If indeed you exalt yourselves against me, And plead my disgrace against me, 6 Know then that God has wronged me, And has surrounded me with His net. 7 “If I cry out concerning wrong, I am not heard. If I cry aloud, there is no justice.
Does God WRONG anyone? Job's thoughts and words were certainly without knowledge, for God IS a RIGHTEOUS judge who would never wrong anyone.
Job 9:21 “I am blameless, yet I do not know myself; I despise my life. 22 It is all one thing; Therefore I say, 'He destroys the blameless and the wicked.' 23 If the scourge slays suddenly, He laughs at the plight of the innocent.
Job 10:4 Do You have eyes of flesh? Or do You see as man sees? 5 Are Your days like the days of a mortal man? Are Your years like the days of a mighty man, 6 That You should seek for my iniquity And search out my sin, 7 Although You know that I am not wicked, And there is no one who can deliver from Your hand?
Job 10:17 You renew Your witnesses against me, And increase Your indignation toward me; Changes and war are ever with me. 18 'Why then have You brought me out of the womb? Oh, that I had perished and no eye had seen me! 19 I would have been as though I had not been. I would have been carried from the womb to the grave. 20 Are not my days few? Cease! Leave me alone, that I may take a little comfort,
Job compares YHVH to man, then accuses Him of destroying the blameless and he even tells God to leave him alone!
Job 32:1 So these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 Then the wrath of Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, was aroused against Job; his wrath was aroused because he justified himself rather than God.
Job 33:6 Truly I am as your spokesman before God; I also have been formed out of clay. 7 Surely no fear of me will terrify you, Nor will my hand be heavy on you. 8 “Surely you have spoken in my hearing, And I have heard the sound of your words, saying, 9 'I am pure, without transgression; I am innocent, and there is no iniquity in me. 10 Yet He finds occasions against me, He counts me as His enemy; 11 He puts my feet in the stocks, He watches all my paths.' 12 “Look, in this you are not righteous. I will answer you, For God is greater than man. 13 Why do you contend with Him?
Job 34:5 “For Job has said, 'I am righteous, But God has taken away my justice; 6 Should I lie concerning my right? My wound is incurable, though I am without transgression.' 7 What man is like Job, Who drinks scorn like water, 8 Who goes in company with the workers of iniquity, And walks with wicked men? 9 For he has said, 'It profits a man nothing That he should delight in God.' 10 “Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding: Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to commit iniquity. 11 For He repays man according to his work, And makes man to find a reward according to his way. 12 Surely God will never do wickedly, Nor will the Almighty pervert justice. 13 Who gave Him charge over the earth? Or who appointed Him over the whole world? 14 If He should set His heart on it, If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath, 15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.
…….. 18 Is it fitting to say to a king, 'You are worthless,' And to nobles, 'You are wicked'? 19 Yet He is not partial to princes, Nor does He regard the rich more than the poor; For they are all the work of His hands.
1 Samuel 2:7 The Lord makes poor and makes rich; He brings low and lifts up.
YHVH brought Job down making him poor and diseased.
There is never a question about Job accusing the wrong person for his infliction. The scriptures discuss that Job was wrong for considering that God had NO RIGHT to do what he did, that God was WRONG, that God was being a wicked judge against him.
20 In a moment they die, in the mid
dle of the night; The people are shaken and pass away; The mighty are taken away without a hand. 21 “For His eyes are on the ways of man, And He sees all his steps. 22 There is no darkness nor shadow of death Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves. 23 For He need not further consider a man, That he should go before God in judgment. 24 He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry, And sets others in their place. 25 Therefore he knows their works; He overthrows them in the night, And they are crushed. 26 He strikes them as wicked men In the open sight of others, 27 Because they turned back from Him, And would not consider any of His ways, 28 So that they caused the cry of the poor to come to Him; For He hears the cry of the afflicted. 29 When He gives quietness, who then can make trouble? And when He hides His face, who then can see Him, Whether it is against a nation or a man alone?– 30 That the hypocrite should not reign, Lest the people be ensnared. 31 “For has anyone said to God, ' I have borne chastening; I will offend no more; 32 Teach me what I do not see; If I have done iniquity, I will do no more'? 33 Should He repay it according to your terms, Just because you disavow it? You must choose, and not I; Therefore speak what you know. 34 “Men of understanding say to me, Wise men who listen to me: 35 'Job speaks without knowledge, His words are without wisdom.' 36 Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost, Because his answers are like those of wicked men! 37 For he adds rebellion to his sin; He claps his hands among us, And multiplies his words against God.”Job 42:11 Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him. Each one gave him a piece of silver and each a ring of gold.
The adversity that Job faced we are told directly came from YHVH. Scripture is clear that there is NO ONE else like Him. YHVH ALONE brings cursing, calamity and darkness through supernatural means. God warns man that to denote these POWERS to another is to create a FALSE gOD.
Job is shown clearly to be without knowledge because he questions God's judgment and righteousness, believing that he is not deserving of God's inflictions of which He performed through His Faithful Messenger.
Ed J,Why are you ignoring this post and my previous posts?
Your inability to properly debate is wearing on my patience.
Elihu says that Job was without knowledge and his thoughts were wicked. He mentions nothing about it being because Job blamed the wrong person for his infliction (If this is a wrong statement then BACK IT UP WITH scripture). What Elihu tells us is that Job is wicked for accusing God of not being a righteous judge (once again if this is a wrong assessment of the scriptures prove it with scripture.)
Job 42:11 Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him. Each one gave him a piece of silver and each a ring of gold.
Ed J, explain how this does not attribute Jobs suffering as coming from God?
Part of the adversity Job received was being made poor. We are told that –
1 Samuel 2:2 “No one is holy like the Lord, For there is none besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God. 3 “Talk no more so very proudly; Let no arrogance come from your mouth, For the Lord is the God of knowledge; And by Him actions are weighed. 4 “The bows of the mighty men are broken, And those who stumbled are girded with strength. 5 Those who were full have hired themselves out for bread, And the hungry have ceased to hunger. Even the barren has borne seven, And she who has many children has become feeble. 6 “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. 7 The Lord makes poor and makes rich; He brings low and lifts up.
We are told that God afflicted Job, Job was made poor in his suffering, we are told that there is no other like God, He makes the poor and the rich. But you want to blame his suffering as coming from another Power?
Job 1:13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house; 14 and a messenger came to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 when the Sabeans raided them and took them away–indeed they have killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” 16 While he was still speaking, another also came and said,“The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” 17 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “The Chaldeans formed three bands, raided the camels and took them away, yes, and killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” 18 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, 19 and suddenly a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people, and they are dead; and I alone have escaped to tell you!
Was it NOT the fire of God? Why did you ignore the points that I made that I am now having to repeat?
2 Kings 1:10 So Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, “If I am a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men.” And fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.
Ed J, you don’t find it strange that the adversity placed on Job, we see in other scriptures is the SAME adversity God brought onto others?
You want to tell us that even though scripture says that God brought the adversity it was actually not Him? You want to tell us how it is that scripture says God ALONE brings cursing, calamity and darkness through supernatural means, but it was not God that brought such upon Job?
Ed J,Why are you not answering my questions and why do you continue to directly ignore scriptures and the points I made with them?
Let me draw a point out a little further and let's see if you will actually answer it!!
11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord. 13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house; 14 and a messenger came to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 when the Sabeans raided them and took them away–indeed they have killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” 16 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; and I alone have escaped to tell you!”
Job 42:11 Then all his brothers, all his siste
rs, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him. Each one gave him a piece of silver and each a ring of gold.The adversary ASKS God to stretch out HIS hand, and then God gives him DIRECTIONS and PERMISSION to inflict Job and the adversary DELIVERS God's INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY. One thing we see being delivered by the adversary is the FIRE OF GOD.
Ed J, you said, “You apparently are not denying that Job blamed God for his affliction. The Scripture documents that Satan causes the affliction on Job, YHVH allowing Satan to do so, to prove Job's loyalty to YHVH…”
Why would I deny something that scripture states repeatedly. Job BLAMES God all through out the book, and NEVER once is Job corrected and told that someone else brought the infliction.
You keep missing the fact that the scriptures say that God brought the adversity, so that would make the adversary a Messenger of God, which is what I have been saying all along.
Ed J,
Scripture shows clearly that MEN feared God's messengers. I gave you scripture of David fearing the angel with the sword.
Ed J, WHY is the FIRST use of saw-tawn in the bible given to a faithful angel of God? ….BECAUSE THE PEOPLE SAW AND CALLED God's FAITHFUL MESSENGERS ADVERSARIES or rather SATAN.
Job lost his loyalty, he even asked God to leave him alone, so your story of God ALLOWING to prove loyalty is nothing but proof to me that you are more about following Christian TRADITION then actual scripture. The adversary was RIGHT about Job. Job's love and respect for God did not stand after his body was inflicted. Job accused God of being full of injustice. God knew Jobs heart all along, this is why God followed the adversaries motivation to inflict Job.
The adversary
Who PRESENCE himself before the LORD,
Speaks truth about the heart of a man,
Follows Gods orders
With an end result of a man standing in REPENTANCE with a deeper understanding of God,
Does NOT portray a jealous malevolent creature who is against God and man for malevolent reasons.
Hi Jodi,What's BLACK and WHITE and RED all over ?
Long Posts (like you and WJ do) do NOT prove anything,
most people will not even bother to read such a long Post!If you want me to address your points, then keep them
to a minimum and only ask one question per Post; OK?Otherwise I will only select out of it what I wish to address,
and that is what (I believe) you're calling not properly debating.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Baker @ Oct. 03 2010,18:18) Are you competing with Ed, and terraricca to be # 1? Georg
Is this Sarcasm im sensing or Pride?
Pick oneI have no desire to be number 1, but to be last and a servant.
look you either have something to say or you dont?
so which is it? you have something to state over what i posted or not?
Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 04 2010,10:42) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 04 2010,03:33) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 03 2010,12:41) Hi JustAskin, The point I make is: Uzzah's death was probably an accident,
rather than what the scribe of the king recorded! (2Sam.6:7)
This is similar to the story of Job recorded in the book of Job.Jodi asserts that God (according to Jodi) caused Job's affliction.
Ignoring The Bible records that ‘Satan’ is behind Job's affliction!
Both Elihu and YHVH state Job spoke words without knowledge!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
Ed J,1) You are completely ignoring the fact that I believe the scriptures show that the adversary is a Messenger of God.
2) You are ignoring what I am saying and thus are not properly debating with me.
3) I have never denied that the adversary inflicted Job, (A)in fact I have said that the adversary afflicted Job (B)but that he did so through the Holy Spirit.
4) The FIRE that came down was called the FIRE of God from heaven!!
5) If the saw-tawn is a messenger of God like the saw-tawn is in Numbers, (A)then it can be said that the adversary brought the infliction AND God brought the infliction.
6) As I have said before, the saw-tawn brought the affliction (A)but it was done so ultimately by God's Will!!
7) BOTH God and the saw-tawn did so for the SAME PURPOSE, (A)because Job needed instruction and refinement, (B)because Job was living with a hedge around him, and he was extremely ignorant of God.
Hi Jodi,This last Post (of yours) is a little more manageable,
and since you want me to address everything you say, I will.1) Please show (using Scripture) that Satan is (according to Jodi) a Messenger of God?
2) What makes you ‘think’ you get to decide what is “proper”?
3) The adversary is Satan the devil!
A) It seem to me you were contesting this FACT.
B) You are making A PRETTY BIG CLAIM HERE? This claim REQUIRES PROOF; do you have any?
4) Are you saying: the fire that fell from heaven killing Job's
servants and sheep was (according to Jodi) the HolySpirit? (1Thess.5:21)
A) Was the HolySpirit the fire (according to Jodi) that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah as well?5) Please show this claim as well?
A) If a Judge releases a criminal from prison and the criminal kills, was the Judge then the murderer?6) It was a test of “Free Will” to prove Job's integrity to all the watching Angels without God's interference:
that in the face of cruel adversity, Job's “Free Will” would not falter in devotion to (my God) JEHOVAH!
A) You are implying that is was God's desire (according to Jodi) to torture Job?7) So Satan and God (according to Jodi) are now partners?
A) None of the people mentioned in the book of Job were aware of the malevolent evil entity called Satan the devil!
B) Job was ignorant of the FACT that the malevolent evil entity called Satan the devil was the one causing his affliction!Did I debate with you properly in this Post; Jodi?
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
The adversary in the book of Job is a messenger of God, of course not all SATANS are messengers of God some are shown in scripture to be men against other men and men against God. We have David's enemies of war, and we have Peter as examples.And we also have in the book of Numbers an example of a faithful messenger of God being called a SAW-TAWN.
Ed J,
You see this is what is really annoying to me, I have given many scriptural examples as to why I believe the saw-tawn in the book of Job is a messenger of God.
You just ignore them, you don't address those scriptures or what I have said about them directly, and until you do we need not continue this conversation.
The fact that you find any of my posts unmanageable really gives me the impression that debating with you is truly a waist of my time.
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 04 2010,15:48) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 04 2010,10:42) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 04 2010,03:33)
Ed J,1) You are completely ignoring the fact that I believe the scriptures show that the adversary is a Messenger of God.
Hi Jodi,1) Please show (using Scripture) that Satan is (according to Jodi) a Messenger of God?
The adversary in the book of Job is a messenger of God, of course not all SATANS are messengers of God some are shown in scripture to be men against other men and men against God.
Hi Jodi,Back peddling now; huh?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Oct. 04 2010,10:49) Hi Jodi, If you have anything else you want me to address,
Please keep the points you wish to make to a minimum.
And only ask one question per Post: so I can elaborate without
the Post being so big than no-one will read it; my goal is for others my Posts!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
This is funny,How am I suppose to keep my posts short so you can respond short, when you ask me many questions in one post? Silly Nilly
If you want to keep things short and simple then maybe you should start by asking me one question at a time!
Here is one question for you,
Do you define the Hebrew word X!t (saw-tawn) in ALL cases of the bible to represent every time the same exact individual?
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 04 2010,15:48) The adversary in the book of Job is a messenger of God
Hi Jodi,You have yet to prove this assertion!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 04 2010,15:48) And we also have in the book of Numbers an example of a faithful messenger of God being called a SAW-TAWN.
Hi Jodi,Please do show us all!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 04 2010,15:48) Ed J, 1) You see this is what is really annoying to me, I have given many scriptural examples as to why I believe the saw-tawn in the book of Job is a messenger of God.
2) You just ignore them, (A)you don't address those scriptures or (B)what I have said about them directly, (C)and until you do we need not continue this conversation.
3) The fact that you find any of my posts unmanageable really gives me the impression that debating with you is truly a waist of my time.
Hi Jodi,1) They must of got lost in the mix, please ONLY re-Post the specific verse to which you refer;
all the surrounding verses (you usually Post along with them) I can look up if I want to.2) No, I ignore your opinions.
A) You Post unrelated Scriptures
B) Opinionated (off topic) statements I ignore.
C) So you concede defeat! I knew your opinions COULD NOT STAND UP TO SCRUTINY!3) How about I post a 20 Page document, and ask you to address every point!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 04 2010,16:27) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 04 2010,10:49) Hi Jodi, If you have anything else you want me to address,
Please keep the points you wish to make to a minimum.
And only ask one question per Post: so I can elaborate without
the Post being so big than no-one will read it; my goal is for others my Posts!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
This is funny,How am I suppose to keep my posts short so you can respond short, when you ask me many questions in one post? Silly Nilly
If you want to keep things short and simple then maybe you should start by asking me one question at a time!
Here is one question for you,
Do you define the Hebrew word X!t (saw-tawn) in ALL cases of the bible to represent every time the same exact individual?
Hi Jodi,I ask you to keep the length of your Post
down for both your sake and that of the reader.
For your sake so that I will respond to your every point you wish to make.
For the readers sake so that they will actually read your Post; is that not important to you?In some cases God will reference an individual who is being controlled by Satan.
The king of Babylon in Isaiah 14 is one such case.
The king of Tyrus in Ezekiel 28 is another such case.
In both cases God is really pointing to the malevolent
evil entity called Satan the Devil who's name is Lucifer!Jesus pointed to Peter being influenced by this malevolent evil entity called Satan the Devil as well. (Mark 8:33)
In other cases there is not a person associated with the malevolent evil entity called Satan the Devil.
Paul didn't turn Hymenaeus and Alexander over to any person!
And in Rev.12:9 God says that Satan has deceived the whole world.
Continue to ask questions, that's how you learn. (Matt.7:6 / 2Tm.2:13)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Oct. 04 2010,16:28) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 04 2010,15:48) Ed J, 1) You see this is what is really annoying to me, I have given many scriptural examples as to why I believe the saw-tawn in the book of Job is a messenger of God.
2) You just ignore them, (A)you don't address those scriptures or (B)what I have said about them directly, (C)and until you do we need not continue this conversation.
3) The fact that you find any of my posts unmanageable really gives me the impression that debating with you is truly a waist of my time.
Hi Jodi,1) They must of got lost in the mix, please ONLY re-Post the specific verse to which you refer;
all the surrounding verses (you usually Post along with them) I can look up if I want to.2) No, I ignore your opinions.
A) You Post unrelated Scriptures
B) Opinionated (off topic) statements I ignore.
C) So you concede defeat! I knew your opinions COULD NOT STAND UP TO SCRUTINY!3) How about I post a 20 Page document, and ask you to address every point!
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
If I post an unrelated scripture Ed J, then GIVE it and say WHY you find it unrelated.Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 04 2010,16:53) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 04 2010,16:27) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 04 2010,10:49) Hi Jodi, If you have anything else you want me to address,
Please keep the points you wish to make to a minimum.
And only ask one question per Post: so I can elaborate without
the Post being so big than no-one will read it; my goal is for others my Posts!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
This is funny,How am I suppose to keep my posts short so you can respond short, when you ask me many questions in one post? Silly Nilly
If you want to keep things short and simple then maybe you should start by asking me one question at a time!
Here is one question for you,
Do you define the Hebrew word X!t (saw-tawn) in ALL cases of the bible to represent every time the same exact individual?
Hi Jodi,I ask you to keep the length of your Post
down for both your sake and that of the reader.
For your sake so that I will respond to your every point you wish to make.
For the readers sake so that they will actually read your Post; is that not important to you?In some cases God will reference an individual who is being controlled by Satan.
The king of Babylon in Isaiah 14 is one such case.
The king of Tyrus in Ezekiel 28 is another such case.
In both cases God is really pointing to the malevolent
evil entity called Satan the Devil who's name is Lucifer!Jesus pointed to Peter being influenced by this malevolent evil entity called Satan the Devil as well. (Mark 8:33)
In other cases there is not a person associated with the malevolent evil entity called Satan the Devil.
Paul didn't turn Hymenaeus and Alexander over to any person!
And in Rev.12:9 God says that Satan has deceived the whole world.
Continue to ask questions, that's how you learn. (Matt.7:6 / 2Tm.2:13)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J,What you are saying is PURE doctrine NOT scripture BECAUSE not only can you not find the Hebrew word X!T(saw-tawn) in Ezekiel 28 or Isaiah 14, you also cannot find the word devil or slanderer.
So TRY again!! Your OPINION that Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are not only speaking to MEN, as we are TOLD DIRECTLY, but also are speaking of another person, is PURELY your addition, and thus does not equate biblical truth!
You said, “In some cases God will reference an individual who is being controlled by Satan.
The king of Babylon in Isaiah 14 is one such case.
The king of Tyrus in Ezekiel 28 is another such case.
In both cases God is really pointing to the malevolent
evil entity called Satan the Devil who's name is Lucifer!“The idea that God will reference an individual who is being controlled by Satan is once again not biblical truth but your OPINION.
WOW this is really bad IMO Ed J, your attempt to prove your case. Not only do the words Satan not appear in those scriptures but then you turn and say that the men in those scriptures are being said to be controlled by Satan in those scriptures?
Can you PROVE this in those passages? Where does it say in Isaiah and Ezekiel that the Kings are being controlled by Satan?
In just what way were they being controlled by Satan anyway could you please explain?
Jodi Lee,
There are Seven Heavens.Do you read in Scriptures and see it is often in plural, 'Heavens'.
It is good that you ask. The 'Heavens' are dimensions. The higher the Heaven the more in God's direct presence one gets.
Satan was in the immediate presence of God up until he was dismissed to occupy the lowest dimension, the abode of the physical, the earth, to which he is 'the ruler' in a limited way that God allows (e.g. He cannot destroy tne Earth nor the life of Mankind but he has power and authority to mislead mankind).
Look around in earthly society. When a great leader, a dignatry, one with high power and authority, is accused of a crime, or accuses another of a great crime, are they removed from their post?
Really, are they. No…
Jodi Lee, why is that do you think that is the case. When you answer that question then that will also answer the question you are really asking me also.Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 05 2010,03:32) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 04 2010,16:53) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 04 2010,16:27) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 04 2010,10:49) Hi Jodi, If you have anything else you want me to address,
Please keep the points you wish to make to a minimum.
And only ask one question per Post: so I can elaborate without
the Post being so big than no-one will read it; my goal is for others my Posts!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
This is funny,How am I suppose to keep my posts short so you can respond short, when you ask me many questions in one post? Silly Nilly
If you want to keep things short and simple then maybe you should start by asking me one question at a time!
Here is one question for you,
Do you define the Hebrew word X!t (saw-tawn) in ALL cases of the bible to represent every time the same exact individual?
Hi Jodi,I ask you to keep the length of your Post
down for both your sake and that of the reader.
For your sake so that I will respond to your every point you wish to make.
For the readers sake so that they will actually read your Post; is that not important to you?In some cases God will reference an individual who is being controlled by Satan.
The king of Babylon in Isaiah 14 is one such case.
The king of Tyrus in Ezekiel 28 is another such case.
In both cases God is really pointing to the malevolent
evil entity called Satan the Devil who's name is Lucifer!Jesus pointed to Peter being influenced by this malevolent evil entity called Satan the Devil as well. (Mark 8:33)
In other cases there is not a person associated with the malevolent evil entity called Satan the Devil.
Paul didn't turn Hymenaeus and Alexander over to any person!
And in Rev.12:9 God says that Satan has deceived the whole world.
Continue to ask questions, that's how you learn. (Matt.7:6 / 2Tm.2:13)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J,What you are saying is PURE doctrine NOT scripture BECAUSE not only can you not find the Hebrew word X!T(saw-tawn) in Ezekiel 28 or Isaiah 14, you also cannot find the word devil or slanderer.
So TRY again!! Your OPINION that Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are not only speaking to MEN, as we are TOLD DIRECTLY, but also are speaking of another person, is PURELY your addition, and thus does not equate biblical truth!
You said, “In some cases God will reference an individual who is being controlled by Satan.
The king of Babylon in Isaiah 14 is one such case.
The king of Tyrus in Ezekiel 28 is another such case.
In both cases God is really pointing to the malevolent
evil entity called Satan the Devil who's name is Lucifer!“The idea that God will reference an individual who is being controlled by Satan is once again not biblical truth but your OPINION.
WOW this is really bad IMO Ed J, your attempt to prove your case. Not only do the words Satan not appear in those scriptures but then you turn and say that the men in those scriptures are being said to be controlled by Satan in those scriptures?
Can you PROVE this in those passages? Where does it say in Isaiah and Ezekiel that the Kings are being controlled by Satan?
In just what way were they being controlled by Satan anyway could you please explain?
Ed J,The definition of Lucifer is morning star, also known as the planet Venus, also considered a false god or goddess by the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks and Romans.
By what reasoning to you make it into a proper name and attach it to the Hebrew word for adversary X!t (saw-tawn)? Do you believe John Milton to be a prophet or something?
In Isaiah 14 the King is being called the morning star.
4 that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say, “How the oppressor has ceased, And how fury has ceased ! 5 “The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, The scepter of rulers 6 Which used to strike the peoples in fury with unceasing strokes, Which subdued the nations in anger with unrestrained persecution. 7 “The whole earth is at rest and is quiet ; They break forth into shouts of joy. 8 “Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, 'Since you were laid low, no tree cutter comes up against us.' 9 “Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come ; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth ; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones. 10 “They will all respond and say to you, 'Even you have been made weak as we, You have become like us. 11 'Your pomp and the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol ; Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you And worms are your covering.' 12 “How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn ! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations ! 13 “But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven ; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 14 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds ; I will make myself like the Most High.' 15 “Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit. 16 “Those who see you will gaze at you, They will ponder over you, saying, 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,
A MAN was being called the MORNING STAR, and A MAN was
being said to have fallen from heaven.If you continue to assert that the bible teaches that there is a fallen angel with the name Lucifer, I don't think I will be able to debate with you anymore, such would be a serious waist of my time. I can understand why church goers who don't study the bible for themselves believe in such lies, but you? Ridiculous!!
Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 05 2010,03:47) Jodi Lee,
There are Seven Heavens.Do you read in Scriptures and see it is often in plural, 'Heavens'.
It is good that you ask. The 'Heavens' are dimensions. The higher the Heaven the more in God's direct presence one gets.
Satan was in the immediate presence of God up until he was dismissed to occupy the lowest dimension, the abode of the physical, the earth, to which he is 'the ruler' in a limited way that God allows (e.g. He cannot destroy tne Earth nor the life of Mankind but he has power and authority to mislead mankind).
Look around in earthly society. When a great leader, a dignatry, one with high power and authority, is accused of a crime, or accuses another of a great crime, are they removed from their post?
Really, are they. No…
Jodi Lee, why is that do you think that is the case. When you answer that question then that will also answer the question you are really asking me also.
JustAskin,Thanks for responding!
I cannot take your word for it, I need scriptures please.
Where are these seven heavens and where is it discussed that the higher you get the closer you are to God?
Where does it discuss a X!t (saw-tawn) being dismissed to occupy the lowest dimension?
Can you explain more about this saw-tawn having power and authority to mislead mankind, give some examples of what exactly he does?
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 05 2010,05:42) Ed J, Do you believe John Milton to be a prophet or something?
Hi Jodi,Who is John Milton, the character in the movie: the Devils advocate?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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