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George,
(I wrote out a script but it got lost in posting so here it is in short)Lucifer is not Satan's name. It is the name we 'give' to him because we have none else. Jesus is also 'Morning Star', should we also call him 'Lucifer'.
Lucifer is an ancient name meaning what you say. It is the name given to the planet Venus by the Romans due to it's brilliance in the early morning, the dawn. All this has been written and commented on in this forum…and no doubt ignored so another can 'discover' it again.Venus was the most beautiful planet in the solar system (Lucifer) but then was 'stripped' by the proximity to the Sun (the face of God), now the Earth (Jesus) is the most beautiful planet.
“For He taketh away the first in order to establish the second”
'Lucifer', and i will use that name as it is now in common usage but all the time in the knowledge of it's origins and meaning, was indeed, in the garden, on earth. He is a Cherub who stands in the presence of God, as was 'he who is Jesus', and also Michael and Gabriel. Does Revelation not say there are four?
Maybe these are the 'Princes', the Principle Sons of God, who Sang a song together when mankind, the creatures and the Earth were creation and fashioned together. And the other angels who shouted with joy…
Lucifer was the 'covering Cherub'. What was it that he 'covered', the throne of God, the 'skin of the earth', what?
Whatever, it was he was clearly a powerful, if not the most powerful angel before he sinned, or…perhaps this is, and i think so, why he sinned…because he said to himself, 'why should one as glorious and powerful as i not be glorified along with the designer (LU/Kathi, this is also for you). He walked on the earth, in the garden, because, in those times angels walked freely in the physical realm, but then, following the immergence of the Nephilim, sons of the wicked angels who foresook their place and made flesh bodies and put their own spirit into them and bred with human woman, they are now banned from such activity.George, what on earth are you going on about, where on earth, do you get this idea that Lucifer destroyed the earth, made it desolate? No such thing, either in Scriptures, nor Geology, nor any sense.
Science clearly shows how the Earth was formed, this does not disagree with Scriptures, but you go over the top into a noneExistent realm.
Best stick to reality, eh?ja,
thats what i been saying who said the earth was destroyed?
its false
thx sry I would say more but im at workQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 03 2010,12:58) ja,
thats what i been saying who said the earth was destroyed?
its false
thx sry I would say more but im at work
SFyes agreed .there is nothing wrong with the planet only with the tenants.
the bible does not say the earth will be destroyed this is religion fanatics.
Pierre
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 02 2010,04:36) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 03 2010,04:17)
The adversity that Job faced we are told directly came from YHVH. Scripture is clear that there is NO ONE else like Him. YHVH ALONE brings cursing, calamity and darkness through supernatural means. God warns man that to denote these POWERS to another is to create a FALSE gOD.
if this is a wrong assessment of the scriptures prove it with scripture.
Hi Jodi,If what you say is a right assessment of the scriptures prove it with scripture.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 03 2010,04:17) Ed J, Elihu says that Job was without knowledge and his thoughts were wicked. He mentions nothing about it being because Job blamed the wrong person for his infliction (If this is a wrong statement then BACK IT UP WITH scripture). What Elihu tells us is that Job is wicked for accusing God of not being a righteous judge (once again if this is a wrong assessment of the scriptures prove it with scripture.)
Hi Jodi,Quote Why are you ignoring this post and my previous posts?
I have not been ignoring your Posts.Quote Your inability to properly debate is wearing on my patience.
HA Ha ha, ha ha ha ha. Perhaps you need more patience?You apparently are not denying that Job blamed God for his affliction.
The Scripture documents that Satan causes the affliction on Job,
YHVH allowing Satan to do so, to prove Job's loyalty to YHVH…YHVH said: Behold, all that he(Job) hath is in thy(Satan's) power;
only upon himself put not forth thine hand. (Job 1:12)Satan goes about afflicting Job
Satan causes all but one of Job's servants to be slain by the Sabeans. (Job 1:12)
Satan causes fire to fall from heaven burning up Job's sheep and all but one Job's shepherds. (Job 1:16)
Satan causes the Chaldeans to steal Job's camels,
and slay all but one of Job's servants attending the Camels. (Job 1:17)Satan causes a great wind from the wilderness to smote the four corners of Job's house,
killing all Job's children, one young man escaping to tell Job of this calamity. (Job 1:19)Are you going to continue to assert that YHVH did this affliction to Job,
when it is pretty clear from Scripture that neither Job nor his three friends or
Elihu either (for that matter) knew about the evil entity called the Devil and Satan?Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Ps.45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 02 2010,04:36)
The adversity that Job faced we are told directly came from YHVH.
Hi Jodi,It is not Good for you and others to stay in ignorance!
What you say (about Job) can be compared to what happened
to Uzzah when he put forth his hand to steady the Ark of the Covenant.2Sam:6:6: And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah
put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it.2Sam:6:7: And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah;
and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.2Sam:6:8: And David was displeased, because the LORD had made a breach upon Uzzah:
and he called the name of the place Perez-uzzah(break of strength) to this day.The scribe of the King records this event.
The scribe of the king is not as reliable a witness as a Prophet is!
Because a Prophet gets there information directly from YHVH, the kings scribe does NOT!Nicole Tesla surmised that the Ark could
in fact carry the effects of a “Giant Capacitor”.
This would explain YHVH's instructions to the careful
handling of the Ark of the Covenant by the Levitical Priesthood…Exodus 25:14 And thou shalt put the staves into the rings by the sides of the ark,
that the ark may be borne (carried safely) with them.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgSo Edj,
You stepping into my territory of Electronics now concerning the 'Capacitor'.
Of course, a Capacitor is an Electric Energy storage device. One which, if large enough, can give off a very nasty, deadly electric shock when 'grounded' by say, a human body… But check this, have I not said that God is pure energy?
Then, if God is pure energy and also 'in the ark' then anyone of impure 'hands' handling the ark directy, touching it, will 'ground' it and be electricuted.
So, the staves are used, as they do not conduct electricity.Note this, also, pure water does not conduct electricity… A person with a 'pure sinless (in the eyes of God, by the grace of God) spirit' could handle the Ark and not die.
Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 03 2010,10:53) So Edj,
You stepping into my territory of Electronics now concerning the 'Capacitor'.
Of course, a Capacitor is an Electric Energy storage device. One which, if large enough, can give off a very nasty, deadly electric shock when 'grounded' by say, a human body… But check this, have I not said that God is pure energy?
Then, if God is pure energy and also 'in the ark' then anyone of impure 'hands' handling the ark directy, touching it, will 'ground' it and be electricuted.
So, the staves are used, as they do not conduct electricity.Note this, also, pure water does not conduct electricity… A person with a 'pure sinless (in the eyes of God, by the grace of God) spirit' could handle the Ark and not die.
Hi JustAskin,I didn't know you had a background in electronics. Thanks for your
knowledgeable input; Stuart has brought up Uzzah many times!God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi JustAskin,
The point I make is: Uzzah's death was probably an accident,
rather than what the scribe of the king recorded! (2Sam.6:7)
This is similar to the story of Job recorded in the book of Job.Jodi asserts that God (according to Jodi) caused Job's affliction.
Ignoring The Bible records that ‘Satan’ is behind Job's affliction!
Both Elihu and YHVH state Job spoke words without knowledge!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)Edj,
I have answered Stu on the Uzzah account.The people were instructed not to touch the Ark. They were to use the staves when carrying or loading/unloading it. The Ark was not to be stained by being touched with sinful hands.
The people loaded the Ark insecurely and it subsequently fell.
Uzzah, believing himself to be righteous in 'saving' the Ark, grabbed it…does God need saving, or worse, man to save him??? That would have been a 'pagan moment'.Imagine a raw energy source being transported. The director says ,'no one is to touch this with wet hands'. But it is raining heavily and everyone is wet through. Suddenly, the load shifts and one reaches out to steady it…kazzammm, zzzzitzz….!!! And he is no more…
Did the director cause his death?
Why did that one reach out to catch it when all were instructed not to touch it, besides, he was given staydry gloves which he wasn't wearing. Who was at fault?Stu just wanted to be silly. He just wanted to make a stu-point, which is always earthbound, not spiritual.
For a skeptic, he sures knows a lot, in fact, i would go as far as to say that he Wants To Believe but needs some one to convince him, else why is he here in this forum?Hey Saul, sorry, i meant Stuart, you are already blinded …you need to pray to 'the unknown God' now and then the scales will fall from your eyes.
Quote (Baker @ Oct. 02 2010,17:17) Quote (JustAskin @ June 01 2010,02:26) Arnold, “Why do you not understand my mode of speech!” -Is there anyone who understands me yet?
I do NOT believe in any way shape or form that the world was created in 7 (rotations of the earth on it's axis) days … Goodness Gracious George … I was just going along with SF's timeline…
In any case, your questions are valueless: You start out when it is formless – and then jump straight to (proposed) Man existing on it, missing out all the creation 'days'. The questions are INCONGRUOUS.
But just to answer you – No, he would not!
BTW, the post is about When did Satan Fall.
This is to no one in particular and to everyone:
Please – Can the Person who initiates a Post, please try to control what is Posted in it.
If you ask another poster to refrain from posting non-post discussion and they do not refrain then please contact a Moderator.
It is easy enough to start a thread (Thanks t8) for any topic you wish to discuss – even one that is already in full flow.
hopefully this will keep each post more direct – sharper – to the point, as it where —>
If you noticed, my response was to “SimplyForgiven”
I am glad to see you don't believe in the 7 days creation.
Yes, the question is; when did Satan fall?
Satan was what he became when he rebelled against God; his name was Lucifer.Isa 14:12 ¶ How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
This shows that heaven and earth had already been created.
Verse 13 says, he will ascend into heaven; that shows he was on earth.
We know that a third of the angels followed him in his rebellion, Rev. 12:4; that shows the angels were here with him; the question is, for what reason, or purpose?
Lucifer means, light bringer, bright morning star.
Jesus said, he is the light of the world; light is a term used for truth.
Just as we have to learn the truth about God's law and commandments, so did the angels. Lucifer was put in charge to administer those laws to the angels.
That is when he was overcome with pride, thinking, he should be worshiped. He was able to convince a third of the angels to rebel with him.
Jesus said, “I beheld Satan as lightening fall from heaven”, Luke 10:18, in other words, his rebellion failed.
The fact that we know the earth is billions of years old, should tell us, all this happened billions of years ago.
God then withdrew his Holy Spirit which upholds all things, and the earth became void, and empty.
I hope that will help you with, when did Satan fall?Georg
Most of that was Conjecture.You took out the scripture that said he was in “Eden”
so therefore he was still perfect until Eden was created, when was Eden created?
God said EVERYTHING WAS GOOD,
That make no sense to beleive that this happen billions of years ago.The Terms Void, Dark, only describe the lack of something does not describe that the earth was destroyed
“
????WHEN DID THIS ALL HAPPEN?????
In other words when did the Devil fall, when did he sin, and disobeyed God? When did he start his evil schemeing.My Positionp:
The devil must have fell after the Seventh Day.
Why? (reasons with scripture)1. Ezekial 28:13 “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;”
First note that i did cut scripture, the rest of it is above, dont worry, but notice the collen thats there, which shows that this is a seperate point. First the Devil was IN EDEN. How is this possible if he already fell? He was still perfect according to verse 15 until one day inquity was found.
When was this day? after adam or before?
2. Genesis 1:
Second, Genesis 1:2 states that God created the light and it was Good. than he divided the darkness. This is day one!!! IT was Good. Than by day 6, everything that was created it mentions 7 times that it was Good. This is Gods testimony here.
:31 “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
Note: VERY GOOD.
3. God rested on the seventh day. think abuot that? let it settle into your mind.
4. Job 38:
4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
(In other words, ALL THE Bene elohim shotued for joy when God was working on the foundations of the earth. All of them. including lucifer.) This happen in Day 3.To conclude, from this we can understand that he fell after the seventh day. He must have fell before cain and abel died, (who we dont know when they were born) Seth was born apx. 130 years later, by than men have already fell. By Facts alone, we know that the devil had to have fell between day 8 and 130years. By context we know that God set enmity (Jesus) to the Devil becaues he tempted Adam and Eve. He did something evil. so therefore he was manifesting a seperate will, a fallen will, against God. An enemy. Therefore its safe to conclude that any time after eve was created and before eve was tempted, the event of the Devils falling from grace, becoming evil, happened any time between that.
Obeservations that one must consider according to Scripture as they respond:
>Satan was in Eden, as a Perfect Being.
>Satan had joy when the foundations of the earth were made in day 3.
>He was a Cherubuim
>God said EVERYTHING WAS GOOD.
>God cannot lie
>God wouldnt have rested if Evil was present
>The earth was not destroyed before the first day
>Darkness related to void meant emptyness, incomplete.
This is my position,
By request i can go further,
why am i posting this up??,
to show you something,
I dont know when the Devil fell, i really dont,
i can get close to it, becaues the bible only eludes to it.
Im posting this so that we may all examine ourselves by simple looking at scripture,A) if you say its a fact that the Devil as fallen before 7th day than its a belief not a fact.
b) if you say after and say by day 8 he must of fell, this is also a belief not a fact.
Im am stating that he fell after, but i dont give a exact date, or a aboslute date of his fallen event. all i know is that he fell sometime after adam was created.
All you know, is that he fell period.
Nothing more or less.do you see what i was trying to do or not?
because the post isnt really about the DevilIts about you,
The real question is,
When did you fall into your own beliefs, or what somone has taught you, Examine yourself,
Let God be God, and he will tell you.
Is what you believe truth, or maybe somewhat your wrong, in the end God has all truth. He is real, if he is Real than he should be real in our lives, than if he is real in our lives than we can get close to him and ask him, God is it me, or is it you.
Deny your self my beloved brothers,”The Last two post are just copied nd paste from the 4th page of this thread
Revelation says we are still in the first earth. Just because the scripture says dark doesnt mean evil, evil is a result of choice. Earth was made for us, not the devil. The devil hates us. not bc we replaced him, because we are SONS OF GOD
Do you even know what the word darkness means.
Did you know the meaning of cold is that there is not heat.
Cold does not exist, it means that there is a lack of heat.
you dont measure cold, you measure the amount of heat.
can you measure darkness no, darkness is a term to describe there is a lack of light. you can measure light and its different colors but darkness cannot be measured.evil is the absence of God. IF SATAN IS EVIL THAN GOD IS NOT AROUND.
look at the terms, Form less means without form, empty(void) means not full, incomplete, darkness means? lack of light,guess what God does next after seeing there is a lack of light. HE MAKES LIGHT!!! lol
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Oct. 03 2010,20:43) “ ????WHEN DID THIS ALL HAPPEN?????
In other words when did the Devil fall, when did he sin, and disobeyed God? When did he start his evil schemeing.My Positionp:
The devil must have fell after the Seventh Day.
Why? (reasons with scripture)1. Ezekial 28:13 “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;”
First note that i did cut scripture, the rest of it is above, dont worry, but notice the collen thats there, which shows that this is a seperate point. First the Devil was IN EDEN. How is this possible if he already fell? He was still perfect according to verse 15 until one day inquity was found.
When was this day? after adam or before?
2. Genesis 1:
Second, Genesis 1:2 states that God created the light and it was Good. than he divided the darkness. This is day one!!! IT was Good. Than by day 6, everything that was created it mentions 7 times that it was Good. This is Gods testimony here.
:31 “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
Note: VERY GOOD.
3. God rested on the seventh day. think abuot that? let it settle into your mind.
4. Job 38:
4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
(In other words, ALL THE Bene elohim shotued for joy when God was working on the foundations of the earth. All of them. including lucifer.) This happen in Day 3.To conclude, from this we can understand that he fell after the seventh day. He must have fell before cain and abel died, (who we dont know when they were born) Seth was born apx. 130 years later, by than men have already fell. By Facts alone, we know that the devil had to have fell between day 8 and 130years. By context we know that God set enmity (Jesus) to the Devil becaues he tempted Adam and Eve. He did something evil. so therefore he was manifesting a seperate will, a fallen will, against God. An enemy. Therefore its safe to conclude that any time after eve was created and before eve was tempted, the event of the Devils falling from grace, becoming evil, happened any time between that.
Obeservations that one must consider according to Scripture as they respond:
>Satan was in Eden, as a Perfect Being.
>Satan had joy when the foundations of the earth were made in day 3.
>He was a Cherubuim
>God said EVERYTHING WAS GOOD.
>God cannot lie
>God wouldnt have rested if Evil was present
>The earth was not destroyed before the first day
>Darkness related to void meant emptyness, incomplete.
This is my position,
By request i can go further,
why am i posting this up??,
to show you something,
I dont know when the Devil fell, i really dont,
i can get close to it, becaues the bible only eludes to it.
Im posting this so that we may all examine ourselves by simple looking at scripture,A) if you say its a fact that the Devil as fallen before 7th day than its a belief not a fact.
b) if you say after and say by day 8 he must of fell, this is also a belief not a fact.
Im am stating that he fell after, but i dont give a exact date, or a aboslute date of his fallen event. all i know is that he fell sometime after adam was created.
All you know, is that he fell period.
Nothing more or less.do you see what i was trying to do or not?
because the post isnt really about the DevilIts about you,
The real question is,
When did you fall into your own beliefs, or what somone has taught you, Examine yourself,
Let God be God, and he will tell you.
Is what you believe truth, or maybe somewhat your wrong, in the end God has all truth. He is real, if he is Real than he should be real in our lives, than if he is real in our lives than we can get close to him and ask him, God is it me, or is it you.
Deny your self my beloved brothers,”
Are you competing with Ed, and terraricca to be # 1?
Georg
Georg
it seems to me you are now to old to answer or to correct things ,so your abilities are only in calling names and trow useless slogans.
Pierre
SF
“
?WHEN DID THIS ALL HAPPEN??
In other words when did the Devil fall, when did he sin, and disobeyed God? When did he start his evil scheming.—————————————————————
wen did Satan became Satan ,??it was before the Garden of Eden,in is hearth ,but wen man was created he now have a audience,and he used it well ,but this is only wen he fall out of God grace or truth so to speak,
there for a while he was the accuser of the righteous ones,but as per Gen;3-15, in time things would change because God had put forth a plan to restore all things in heaven and on earth,
so wen did he fall from or out of heaven ,? this happen wen Christ died ,Jesus was the offspring talked about in gen;3-15 ,and wen ascent to heaven he clean up the heaven by trowing Satan and company out of heaven,
but not destroyed yet he (Satan)will stick around the earth to fight the righteous of the kingdom of God.until the end.
Pierre
SF,
Satan fell from grace but did not leave heaven. Up until Jesus completed his commission, Satan was allowed to be in Heaven.Satan set a challenge to God, that man could exist without Him. Should God have just thrown Satan down, Satan would have said, 'See , God is afraid. He cannot stand to be challenged. The first and only challenge and He won't even give a chance to work it through, see if i was right, and what if I Am?'
Thus, this wise God allowed Satan to oversee his theory knowing that the end would be the demise of the deceiver, Satan, himself.
But that, being made in the image of Himself, it was completly right that mankind should have the CHOICE and fully participate in the 'experiment'. So God removed His Holy Spirit so man would need to reach for it, if he so desired.
Only when Jesus showed that it was possible for man to reach for God, abide in the Holy Spirit of God and live for God, that it was the only way, then, then, then, Satan was proved utterly wrong and, 'there was no place found for him before the face of God', 'innocence until proof of guilt', of a sorts.Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 03 2010,04:17) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 02 2010,04:36) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 01 2010,17:42) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 01 2010,17:02) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 01 2010,11:51) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Oct. 01 2010,05:13) Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2010,11:43)
3) Job then proceeded to blame God for him being an adversary against himself ? ? ?
Hi Ed J,3.) Job blamed God for his affliction, and rightly so.
Hi Jodi,What were the words that Job spoke without knowledge (mentioned by both
Elihu in 34:35, 35:16 and YHVH in 38:2), if it wasn't for blaming God for his affliction?Job 34:35 Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.
Job 35:16 Therefore doth Job open his mouth in vain; he multiplieth words without knowledge.
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed J,I just want to be clear before I answer your question on what you are saying here.
Are you asserting that Job was accused of speaking without knowledge because he wrongly accused God for his infliction?
Hi Jodi,The question is pretty straight forward…
What were Jobs words without knowledge,
if they were not for blaming God for his affliction?Looking forward to your response!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Good Morning Ed J,Jobs lack of wisdom was in the fact that he questioned God as being a righteous judge.
Job 19:5 If indeed you exalt yourselves against me, And plead my disgrace against me, 6 Know then that God has wronged me, And has surrounded me with His net. 7 “If I cry out concerning wrong, I am not heard. If I cry aloud, there is no justice.
Does God WRONG anyone? Job's thoughts and words were certainly without knowledge, for God IS a RIGHTEOUS judge who would never wrong anyone.
Job 9:21 “I am blameless, yet I do not know myself; I despise my life. 22 It is all one thing; Therefore I say, 'He destroys the blameless and the wicked.' 23 If the scourge slays suddenly, He laughs at the plight of the innocent.
Job 10:4 Do You have eyes of flesh? Or do You see as man sees? 5 Are Your days like the days of a mortal man? Are Your years like the days of a mighty man, 6 That You should seek for my iniquity And search out my sin, 7 Although You know that I am not wicked, And there is no one who can deliver from Your hand?
Job 10:17 You renew Your witnesses against me, And increase Your indignation toward me; Changes and war are ever with me. 18 'Why then have You brought me out of the womb? Oh, that I had perished and no eye had seen me! 19 I would have been as though I had not been. I would have been carried from the womb to the grave. 20 Are not my days few? Cease! Leave me alone, that I may take a little comfort,
Job compares YHVH to man, then accuses Him of destroying the blameless and he even tells God to leave him alone!
Job 32:1 So these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 Then the wrath of Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, was aroused against Job; his wrath was aroused because he justified himself rather than God.
Job 33:6 Truly I am as your spokesman before God; I also have been formed out of clay. 7 Surely no fear of me will terrify you, Nor will my hand be heavy on you. 8 “Surely you have spoken in my hearing, And I have heard the sound of your words, saying, 9 'I am pure, without transgression; I am innocent, and there is no iniquity in me. 10 Yet He finds occasions against me, He counts me as His enemy; 11 He puts my feet in the stocks, He watches all my paths.' 12 “Look, in this you are not righteous. I will answer you, For God is greater than man. 13 Why do you contend with Him?
Job 34:5 “For Job has said, 'I am righteous, But God has taken away my justice; 6 Should I lie concerning my right? My wound is incurable, though I am without transgression.' 7 What man is like Job, Who drinks scorn like water, 8 Who goes in company with the workers of iniquity, And walks with wicked men? 9 For he has said, 'It profits a man nothing That he should delight in God.' 10 “Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding: Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to commit iniquity. 11 For He repays man according to his work, And makes man to find a reward according to his way. 12 Surely God will never do wickedly, Nor will the Almighty pervert justice. 13 Who gave Him charge over the earth? Or who appointed Him over the whole world? 14 If He should set His heart on it, If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath, 15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.
…….. 18 Is it fitting to say to a king, 'You are worthless,' And to nobles, 'You are wicked'? 19 Yet He is not partial to princes, Nor does He regard the rich more than the poor; For they are all the work of His hands.
1 Samuel 2:7 The Lord makes poor and makes rich; He brings low and lifts up.
YHVH brought Job down making him poor and diseased.
There is never a question about Job accusing the wrong person for his infliction. The scriptures discuss that Job was wrong for considering that God had NO RIGHT to do what he did, that God was WRONG, that God was being a wicked judge against him.
20 In a moment they die, in the middle of the night; The people are shaken and pass away; The mighty are taken away without a hand. 21 “For His eyes are on the ways of man, And He sees all his steps. 22 There is no dar
kness nor shadow of death Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves. 23 For He need not further consider a man, That he should go before God in judgment. 24 He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry, And sets others in their place. 25 Therefore he knows their works; He overthrows them in the night, And they are crushed. 26 He strikes them as wicked men In the open sight of others, 27 Because they turned back from Him, And would not consider any of His ways, 28 So that they caused the cry of the poor to come to Him; For He hears the cry of the afflicted. 29 When He gives quietness, who then can make trouble? And when He hides His face, who then can see Him, Whether it is against a nation or a man alone?– 30 That the hypocrite should not reign, Lest the people be ensnared. 31 “For has anyone said to God, ' I have borne chastening; I will offend no more; 32 Teach me what I do not see; If I have done iniquity, I will do no more'? 33 Should He repay it according to your terms, Just because you disavow it? You must choose, and not I; Therefore speak what you know. 34 “Men of understanding say to me, Wise men who listen to me: 35 'Job speaks without knowledge, His words are without wisdom.' 36 Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost, Because his answers are like those of wicked men! 37 For he adds rebellion to his sin; He claps his hands among us, And multiplies his words against God.”Job 42:11 Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him. Each one gave him a piece of silver and each a ring of gold.
The adversity that Job faced we are told directly came from YHVH. Scripture is clear that there is NO ONE else like Him. YHVH ALONE brings cursing, calamity and darkness through supernatural means. God warns man that to denote these POWERS to another is to create a FALSE gOD.
Job is shown clearly to be without knowledge because he questions God's judgment and righteousness, believing that he is not deserving of God's inflictions of which He performed through His Faithful Messenger.
Ed J,Why are you ignoring this post and my previous posts?
Your inability to properly debate is wearing on my patience.
Elihu says that Job was without knowledge and his thoughts were wicked. He mentions nothing about it being because Job blamed the wrong person for his infliction (If this is a wrong statement then BACK IT UP WITH scripture). What Elihu tells us is that Job is wicked for accusing God of not being a righteous judge (once again if this is a wrong assessment of the scriptures prove it with scripture.)
Job 42:11 Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him. Each one gave him a piece of silver and each a ring of gold.
Ed J, explain how this does not attribute Jobs suffering as coming from God?
Part of the adversity Job received was being made poor. We are told that –
1 Samuel 2:2 “No one is holy like the Lord, For there is none besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God. 3 “Talk no more so very proudly; Let no arrogance come from your mouth, For the Lord is the God of knowledge; And by Him actions are weighed. 4 “The bows of the mighty men are broken, And those who stumbled are girded with strength. 5 Those who were full have hired themselves out for bread, And the hungry have ceased to hunger. Even the barren has borne seven, And she who has many children has become feeble. 6 “The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. 7 The Lord makes poor and makes rich; He brings low and lifts up.
We are told that God afflicted Job, Job was made poor in his suffering, we are told that there is no other like God, He makes the poor and the rich. But you want to blame his suffering as coming from another Power?
Job 1:13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house; 14 and a messenger came to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 when the Sabeans raided them and took them away–indeed they have killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” 16 While he was still speaking, another also came and said,“The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” 17 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “The Chaldeans formed three bands, raided the camels and took them away, yes, and killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” 18 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, 19 and suddenly a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people, and they are dead; and I alone have escaped to tell you!
Was it NOT the fire of God? Why did you ignore the points that I made that I am now having to repeat?
2 Kings 1:10 So Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, “If I am a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men.” And fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.
Ed J, you don’t find it strange that the adversity placed on Job, we see in other scriptures is the SAME adversity God brought onto others?
You want to tell us that even though scripture says that God brought the adversity it was actually not Him? You want to tell us how it is that scripture says God ALONE brings cursing, calamity and darkness through supernatural means, but it was not God that brought such upon Job?
Ed J,Why are you not answering my questions and why do you continue to directly ignore scriptures and the points I made with them?
Let me draw a point out a little further and let's see if you will actually answer it!!
11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord. 13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house; 14 and a messenger came to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 when the Sabeans raided them and took them away–indeed they have killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” 16 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; and I alone have escaped to tell you!”
Job 42:11 Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the Lord had brought up
on him. Each one gave him a piece of silver and each a ring of gold.The adversary ASKS God to stretch out HIS hand, and then God gives him DIRECTIONS and PERMISSION to inflict Job and the adversary DELIVERS God's INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY. One thing we see being delivered by the adversary is the FIRE OF GOD.
Ed J, you said, “You apparently are not denying that Job blamed God for his affliction. The Scripture documents that Satan causes the affliction on Job, YHVH allowing Satan to do so, to prove Job's loyalty to YHVH…”
Why would I deny something that scripture states repeatedly. Job BLAMES God all through out the book, and NEVER once is Job corrected and told that someone else brought the infliction.
You keep missing the fact that the scriptures say that God brought the adversity, so that would make the adversary a Messenger of God, which is what I have been saying all along.
Ed J,
Scripture shows clearly that MEN feared God's messengers. I gave you scripture of David fearing the angel with the sword.
Ed J, WHY is the FIRST use of saw-tawn in the bible given to a faithful angel of God? ….BECAUSE THE PEOPLE SAW AND CALLED God's FAITHFUL MESSENGERS ADVERSARIES or rather SATAN.
Job lost his loyalty, he even asked God to leave him alone, so your story of God ALLOWING to prove loyalty is nothing but proof to me that you are more about following Christian TRADITION then actual scripture. The adversary was RIGHT about Job. Job's love and respect for God did not stand after his body was inflicted. Job accused God of being full of injustice. God knew Jobs heart all along, this is why God followed the adversaries motivation to inflict Job.
The adversary
Who PRESENCE himself before the LORD,
Speaks truth about the heart of a man,
Follows Gods orders
With an end result of a man standing in REPENTANCE with a deeper understanding of God,
Does NOT portray a jealous malevolent creature who is against God and man for malevolent reasons.
Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 03 2010,12:41) Hi JustAskin, The point I make is: Uzzah's death was probably an accident,
rather than what the scribe of the king recorded! (2Sam.6:7)
This is similar to the story of Job recorded in the book of Job.Jodi asserts that God (according to Jodi) caused Job's affliction.
Ignoring The Bible records that ‘Satan’ is behind Job's affliction!
Both Elihu and YHVH state Job spoke words without knowledge!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
Ed J,You are completely ignoring the fact that I believe the scriptures show that the adversary is a Messenger of God.
You are ignoring what I am saying and thus are not properly debating with me.
I have never denied that the adversary inflicted Job, in fact I have said that the adversary afflicted Job but that he did so through the Holy Spirit.
The FIRE that came down was called the FIRE of God from heaven!!
If the saw-tawn is a messenger of God like the saw-tawn is in Numbers, then it can be said that the adversary brought the infliction AND God brought the infliction.
As I have said before, the saw-tawn brought the affliction but it was done so ultimately by God's Will!!
BOTH God and the saw-tawn did so for the SAME PURPOSE, because Job needed instruction and refinement, because Job was living with a hedge around him, and he was extremely ignorant of God.
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