When did satan fall from heaven?

Participant

hi kerwin

Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Jn 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Jn 3:20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Jn 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
Jn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
Jn 1:6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John.
Jn 1:7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe.
Jn 1:8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
Jn 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
Jn 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
Jn 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Jn 16:5 “Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’
Jn 16:6 Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief.
Jn 16:7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
Jn 16:8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
Jn 16:9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
Jn 16:10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
Jn 16:11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
Jn 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
Jn 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
Jn 16:14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.
Jn 16:15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
Jn 16:16 “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”

those will answer your question i hope.

January 1, 2010 at 1:23 am#167594

Participant

hi kerwin

look John 16;11 this is satan.

January 1, 2010 at 2:57 am#167602

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2010,10:45)

Can anyone aid me in solving this mystery?

kerwin

You're assuming right. Satan's fall occurred long, and I mean long before the creation you read about in Gen. 1.
It seems the first verse is misunderstood by all; think about it; would the angels have shouted for joy (Job 38:7) had the earth looked like that as in v. 2?
Gen. 1:1 is stating a fact, not describing the creation itself.
What you read in v. 2, is also explained in

Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

The creation you read about in Gen. 1 is a renewing of the earth, not the actual creation.
Have you noticed that when God created vegetation, fish, birds,and all kinds of beasts; they were all created “after their kind”. When you create something after something, this something must have existed at one time before.
Ever wonder where all the skeletons of dinosaurs, etc. come from? they were God's first creation, why were these animals so big? because there were no humans on the earth yet, notice, they were not created “after” their kind, their kind had not existed before.
It was when Lucifer rebelled, all became chaotic, and God allowed the earth to shape itself into what he wanted for us, and then recreated all, and created man.

You mustn't think that God would allow Satan in his presence; to approach the throne of grace we have to go to the high priest Jesus Christ first. Jesus was the word, the spokesman for God, if any one it was he that spoke to Satan.

Georg

January 1, 2010 at 5:00 am#167610

Participant

hi kerwin

look at this.

Eze 28:12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
“ ‘You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
Eze 28:14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
Eze 28:15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
Eze 28:16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
Eze 28:17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
Eze 28:18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
Eze 28:19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’ ”

January 1, 2010 at 7:32 am#167625

kerwin

Participant

George,

That is an interesting theory though I am not sure how one can test it.

January 1, 2010 at 7:41 am#167626

kerwin

Participant

Terraricca,

I am confused about when you believe scripture speaks of Satan’s fall since it appears at one time that you are stating he fell when Jesus was crucified and another that he fell before that.

I have heard that Ezekiel 28 is actually symbolic and directed at the king of Tyre and so not speaking of Satan. The Obstacle is not mentioned by the name “Satan” in the passage so how would you know if it is or is not him even if it were speaking of a fallen angel.

I believe that God is prone to use double entendre which can be tricky and so it is defiantly plausible that that passage is both about the fall of Satan and about the king of Tyre.

January 1, 2010 at 8:36 am#167628

Participant

There are several Scriptures that talks about Satan.
Luke 10:18 …I saw Satan fall like lightening from Heaven.
Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer Son of the morning How you have been cut down to the ground; You who weakened the nations.
verse 13 For you have said in your heart ” I will ascent into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation, on the farthest side of the north;
verse 14 I will ascent above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'
There are other Scriptures about Satan if you look into your Concordance you will find them there.
Satan is a being and not just in someones mind like some will think.
Peace and Love Irene

January 1, 2010 at 2:59 pm#167637

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2010,10:45)

Can anyone aid me in solving this mystery?

What Mystery Satan did fall from heaven like lightening. Don't you believe what Scripture says about that in Luke?
My previews post shows you.
Irene

January 1, 2010 at 6:32 pm#167669

kerwin

Participant

Quote (banana @ Jan. 01 2010,20:59)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2010,10:45)

Can anyone aid me in solving this mystery?

What Mystery Satan did fall from heaven like lightening. Don't you believe what Scripture says about that in Luke?
My previews post shows you.
Irene

I am looking to find the time line of when he fell from heaven not if he fell from heaven.

January 1, 2010 at 6:51 pm#167671

Participant

hi kerwin

first question;what is thr reason that Christ came to us ?because of man first sin right.
who was the instigator of that first sin? Satan right.

so when Jesus came to save us and open the door to be saved ,from that time on Satan time was up.and lost his bid.that s wen he came down, there now as no more room for him in the heaven because God as judge him so he was cast down to the earth and he is not happy about it,this is sinse Christ dead and resurection,this is also the beginning of the judgement what John talk about in

Jn 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him

Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.”
Jn 12:29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.
Jn 12:30 Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine.
Jn 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
Jn 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”

Jn 12:44 Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.
Jn 12:45 When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me.

Jn 12:49 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
Jn 12:50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

Jn 16:8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
Jn 16:9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;

January 2, 2010 at 10:28 pm#168254

Participant

Luke 10:10 But whatever city you enter, and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say, 11 'The very dust of your city which clings to us we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near you.' 12 But I say to you that it will be more tolerable in that Day for Sodom than for that city. 13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades. 16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” 17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” 18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

The city Capernaum was exalted to heaven, however because of it’s sinful ways and lack of repentance it would be brought low. The seventy were full of joy as they were given power to heal people from demons/evil spirits. The Greek word translated above as demons, is daimonion, which to the Greeks it represented spiritual creatures they referred to as gods or demigods, of which were believed could possess people and inflict them with diseases. YHVH makes it clear that such demons do not exist, they cannot walk or talk, cause harm or any good, for He is the ONLY Spirit that can bring darkness, calamity and cursing. Deuteronomy 28 tells us that YHVH would inflict people and their descendants with all sorts of diseases including diseases of the mind that cause people to act crazy. If a person was sick or mad they were suffering from an evil spirit created by YHVH. The idea of demons being fallen angels is clearly an idea stolen from the widespread and very popular beliefs of the demons the pagans believed in.

We see that “to fall” in scripture represents the loss of power. If something or someone falls like lightening that would of course then represent a rather quick loss of power. Jesus gave the seventy authority to trample serpents and scorpions. The bible shows that such are referred to as being MEN, not fallen angels.

Ezekiel 2:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day. 4 For they are impudent children and stiffhearted . I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD. 5 And they, whether they will hear , or whether they will forbear , (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them. 6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.

Luke 20:31 Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

The enemies Jesus calls serpents, vipers and scorpions are MEN. Scripture shows that it is MAN that is said to fall from heaven, or rather his High Position.

YHVH exalts individuals, whole groups of people, and their cities. As He exalts them He also when they grow in pride and sin He casts them down.

Isaiah 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. 12 For the day of the Lord of hosts Shall come upon everything proud and lofty, Upon everything lifted up– And it shall be brought low— 13 Upon all the cedars of Lebanon that are high and lifted up, And upon all the oaks of Bashan; 14 Upon all the high mountains, And upon all the hills that are lifted up; 15 Upon every high tower, And upon every fortified wall; 16 Upon all the ships of Tarshish, And upon all the beautiful sloops. 17 The loftiness of man shall be bowed down, And the haughtiness of men shall be brought low; The Lord alone will be exalted in that day, 18 But the idols He shall utterly abolish.

Psalm 75:6 For exaltation comes neither from the east Nor from the west nor from the south. 7 But God is the Judge: He puts down one, And exalts another.

Ps 5:10 Pronounce them guilty, O God! Let them fall by their own counsels; Cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions, For they have rebelled against You.

Isaiah 10”33 Behold, the Lord, The Lord of hosts, Will lop off the bough with terror; Those of high stature will be hewn down, And the haughty will be humbled. 34 He will cut down the thickets of the forest with iron, And Lebanon will fall by the Mighty One.

Jer 6:15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? No! They were not at all ashamed; Nor did they know how to blush. Therefore they shall fall among those who fall; At the time I punish them, They shall be cast down,” says the Lord.

Jer 50:32 The most proud shall stumble and fall, And no one will raise him up; I will kindle a fire in his cities, And it will devour all around him.”

Ps 36:12 there the workers of iniquity have fallen; They have been cast down and are not able to rise.

Psalms 89:44 You have made his glory cease, And cast his throne down to the ground.

La 2:1 How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion With a cloud in His anger! He cast down from heaven to the earth The beauty of Israel, And did not remember His footstool In the day of His anger.

Eze 31:16 I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth.

Eze 32:18 “Son of man, wail over the multitude of Egypt, And cast them down to the depths of the earth, Her and the daughters of the famous nations, With those who go down to the Pit:

Men and their armies and governments are shown clearly to be considered as in heaven and we are told that they can be cast down from that high position.

One man who deceives is rightfully likened to being a serpent, and as well, many deceitful men together with their governments and armies are rightfully likened to being a beast or dragon.

The city of Capernaum was said to be exalted to heaven, the ‘heaven’ represents a High Position, it does not represent God’s heavenly abode where ONLY the righteous do dwell. Earth is to be as it IS in heaven, with no more sin and with no more war. Angels do not sin in God’s heavenly abode and neither do they make war. The Dragon, of which represents kings and their kingdoms from Revelation is like Capernaum a city that falls from it’s High positio
n of power and authority.

Revelation 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The great dragon is of the same mind as the serpent of old, which is the mind of man that follows after his own desires instead of the Holy Spirit. The dragon and the beast are a force of men that all follow the will of man, and not the will of YHVH.

Revelation 20:2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

What is bound for a thousand years? ……Mens ways are bound, men can no longer follow after their own heart and desires, only those who follow Christ and the will of YHVH will exist. But when the thousand years are over and the second resurrection comes, the adversary will be loosened again because those of the second resurrection have yet to know the way of YHVH they are not raised immortal but in their previous state, having confidence in their flesh.

Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors–not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

The adversary will be released, meaning men will be allowed for a time to live according to their flesh.

There WAS NO FALL from God’s righteous abode by angels.

Luke 20: 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

When earth is made as it is in heaven, will we be able to SIN and create war? NO of course not. Sin does not dwell in God’s presence. Our Heavenly Father will come down Himself and dwell with us after He receives the kingdom from His Son, after the last enemy is destroyed which is death. The destruction of death means sinful nature has come to an end and YHVH is ALL IN ALL! Angels exist IN heaven with YHVH in His presence because they have been purified from having sinful nature. Creatures do not fall from that nature, they have been perfected and are no longer able to die anymore.

FUTILE is the belief that angels who are no longer able to die anymore can not only sin, but they can do so in YHVH’s righteous abode. Creatures who are able to sin, DO NOT dwell in the presence of YHVH.

January 2, 2010 at 10:59 pm#168262

Participant

YHVH appointed angels to be His eyes and ears on earth. These messengers roamed to and fro watching over Israel, and when they sinned they were punished. Israel called these angels their adversaries, which in their native tongue is pronounced saw-tawn.

Any angel that brought cursing was known as a saw-tawn. The saw-tawn in the Book of Job was a messenger of YHVH. We see clearly that the messenger fully follows the commands of YHVH. We see that the messenger was in fact RIGHT in his accusations against Job, for by the end of the book Job in fact REPENTS.

The adversary in the book of Job is NOT in anyway shown to be a fallen angel or an angel that is going against the Will of YHVH.

From my careful study of the bible, there exist NO scripture that relates an adversary (saw-tawn) to being an angel that was kicked out of YHVH's righteous abode.

January 2, 2010 at 11:14 pm#168269

Participant

IF Ezekiel 28 has dual representation, and is therefore not ONLY speaking about the King of Tyre, but also someone else, then I believe that other person could be best identified as Adam.

Eze 28:13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. 8 The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. 9 And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. 10 Now a river went out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it parted and became four riverheads. 11 The name of the first is Pishon; it is the one which skirts the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 And the gold of that land is good. Bdellium and the onyx stone are there. 13 The name of the second river is Gihon; it is the one which goes around the whole land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is Hiddekel; it is the one which goes toward the east of Assyria. The fourth river is the Euphrates. 15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.

The day that angels were created we know not of, but certainly it would not be the time of which the gold on earth was prepared!

On the day Adam was created scripture speaks about there being gold and other precious stones. As King of Tyre was a guardian, so too was Adam given the position to rule and look after creation.

Eze 28:15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
Eze 28:16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
Eze 28:17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned–

It was Adam that SINNED and was kicked out of the Garden.

Men are likened to serpents, their minds from their own imaginations are like a forked tongue creating deceit.

Men are clearly shown to FALL from heaven, or high position.

There exists NO fall by angels from YHVH's righteous abode.

January 2, 2010 at 11:56 pm#168280

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 02 2010,05:32)

Quote (banana @ Jan. 01 2010,20:59)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2010,10:45)

Can anyone aid me in solving this mystery?

What Mystery Satan did fall from heaven like lightening. Don't you believe what Scripture says about that in Luke?
My previews post shows you.
Irene

I am looking to find the time line of when he fell from heaven not if he fell from heaven.

It had to be before God created man, because He was already in Paradise to deceive Eve. I don't think that the exact date is known. For Jodi! To say that Satan is only in mans mind is not correct. And as far as other Angels are concerned they did leave their first estate and are in darkness.(chained)
Jude 1:6
And the Angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own habitation, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgement of the great day.
Irene

January 3, 2010 at 12:27 am#168288

Participant

Quote (banana @ Jan. 03 2010,10:56)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 02 2010,05:32)

Quote (banana @ Jan. 01 2010,20:59)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2010,10:45)

Can anyone aid me in solving this mystery?

What Mystery Satan did fall from heaven like lightening. Don't you believe what Scripture says about that in Luke?
My previews post shows you.
Irene

I am looking to find the time line of when he fell from heaven not if he fell from heaven.

The messengers that left their first estate, were the prophets in the OT who LEFT YHVH and followed after their OWN prophecies. These false messengers wait for the judgment.

January 3, 2010 at 1:04 am#168291

peace2all

Participant

Quote (banana @ Jan. 03 2010,10:56)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 02 2010,05:32)

Quote (banana @ Jan. 01 2010,20:59)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2010,10:45)

Can anyone aid me in solving this mystery?

What Mystery Satan did fall from heaven like lightening. Don't you believe what Scripture says about that in Luke?
My previews post shows you.
Irene

I am looking to find the time line of when he fell from heaven not if he fell from heaven.

irene,

god created everything and said it was very good.

very good to god is way more than just good.

lucifer didn't help the sin law to be chargable until adam&eve were on earth.

so it would have to have been after not before. he is the original serpent which is reference in genesis.

January 3, 2010 at 2:47 am#168299

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2010,18:32)

George,

That is an interesting theory though I am not sure how one can test it.

kerwin

Why does the Bible say, we walk by faith?
There are many things we don't find the answers to, but when you “search” the scriptures, you can get a pretty good idea of things.
How are mountain ranges formed?
How long does it take for them to form?
How did oil get into the ground?
How long does it take for oil to form?
The Hawaiian islands were formed by volcanic eruptions;
How long did it take for them to form?
Shall I go on?

Georg

January 3, 2010 at 3:06 am#168302