What&#39;s with my trinitarian brothers?

Participant

TO ALL:

The purpose of this topic is to stimulate my trinitarian brothers here to think more orthodox in their trinitarianism. Trinitarianism has always held to the belief that God is three persons making up one substance. Each person is distinct from the other both in His person and His acts. I had said that the coming of Jehovah in Zechariah 14 was a coming to Israel in Zechariah's own time and that it had nothing to do with the coming of Christ. Below is WJ's reply:

WorshippingJesus said to the thinker:

Quote

You are contradicting yourself! You say Zech 14 is the Father coming but the scripture you quote shows Jesus coming!

Is the Father the “Son of Man”? Hello! You are sounding like anti-trinitarians.

My trinitarian brother is confusing the two persons here. Below is my reply:

Quote

I also said that Zechariah's prophecy referred to Jehovah's coming in Zechariah's own time. Did you catch that I said that Keith? It had nothing to do with Christ's coming in ad70. Zechariah 1:1-3 says that Jehovah would return to Israel. Jehovah came to Israel many times in their old testament history. So the prophecy of Zechariah 14 is pre-messianic. Start listening please!

WJ again confuses the two persons and their acts:

WJ:

Quote

… and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Zech 14:5

My reply:

This happened many times in Israel's old testament history. MOSES SAID THAT JEHOVAH CAME FROM MOUNT SINAI WITH ALL HIS SAINTS (ANGELS), Deuteronomy 33:2-3.

Quote

2 And he said:

“The LORD came from Sinai,
And dawned on them from Seir;
He shone forth from Mount Paran,
And He came with ten thousands of saints;
From His right hand
Came a fiery law for them.

3 Yes, He loves the people;
All His saints are in Your hand;
They sit down at Your feet;
Everyone receives Your words.

Moses said that Jehovah came from Sinai with ten thousands of His saints. Jesus said that “no man has ascended into heaven.” So this must have been angels Keith. It says also that He has “feet” just like in the prophecy of Zechariah 14.

Do you think trinitarians have the license to make every reference to Jehovah about Christ? The coming of Jehovah in Zechariah 14 is no more Messianic then the coming of Jehovah from Mount Sinai with all His saints in Moses' day.

Let the trinitarians here get back to a more orthodox trinitarianism. WJ is accusing me of sounding like the anti-trinitarians when it is him who confuses the two persons in their names and their acts.

thinker

November 14, 2009 at 9:34 pm#156742

Participant

Hi TT,
Do you think orthodoxy according to your unorthodox ideas would help us all?

November 14, 2009 at 9:39 pm#156743

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2009,08:34)

Hi TT,
Do you think orthodoxy according to your unorthodox ideas would help us all?

Yakkety yak

thinker

November 14, 2009 at 10:51 pm#156757

Participant

Hi TT,
You keep opening more threads of your own ideas.
Do you think more people are influenced or turned away?

November 15, 2009 at 12:05 am#156767

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 15 2009,09:51)

Hi TT,
You keep opening more threads of your own ideas.
Do you think more people are influenced or turned away?

Nick,
The subject is multi-faceted and one or two threads will get too cluttered. Preterism is the fastest growing movement in Christendom right now. Futurist Christianity has been telling people that Jesus is coming “soon” for two thousand years. The furturists won't be able to pull the wool over people's eyes for another two thousand years. I am glad to do my piddly little part in the eschatological revolution here.

Yes, we will be here for another two thousand years because God promised Abraham that He would show mercy to his descendants for “thousands of generations.” We are just short of 100 generations from the giving of that promise.

Hmmm….I wonder why the futurists take the thousand years in Revelation literally and not the thousand generations duration of the Abrahamic covenant?

Makes you wonder don't it Nick?

thinker

November 15, 2009 at 12:31 am#156778

Participant

Hi TT,
Patience for a little while and you will not have to make stuff up.
But get rid of that trinity noose around your neck before he comes.

November 15, 2009 at 3:25 am#156825

terraricca

Participant

hi the thinker
if you think on some scriptures in a way to interpret them to you liking, then you have youself setup has your own god,
this way you are in direct opposition to Christ and is Father, our GOD.

I really believe you should rethink your thinking,it is up to you

November 15, 2009 at 11:16 am#156858

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 15 2009,14:25)

I really believe you should rethink your thinking,it is up to you

t,
I have rethought and there is no going back. Hebrews says that He would come in a “very little while” and “will not delay.”

He kept His promise.

thinker

November 15, 2009 at 5:40 pm#156867

Participant

Hi TT,
The bridegroom was delayed and they fell asleep.
Soon he will return.
Seek oil.

November 15, 2009 at 7:59 pm#156920

terraricca

Participant

hi tk
2Pe 2:19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him
2Pe 3:13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief

2Pe 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
2Pe 3:4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning

well wath else can i say?

November 15, 2009 at 8:06 pm#156923

Constitutionalist

Participant

I kinda like his postings, the more he speaks the more his trinitatarian brothers are seeing through his facade!

:cool:

November 16, 2009 at 6:00 pm#157116

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 14 2009,16:32)

TO ALL:

The purpose of this topic is to stimulate my trinitarian brothers here to think more orthodox in their trinitarianism.

Seriously Jack, do you want to go down this road? What makes you think that you are a teacher over your Trinitarian brothers that you even say this? What is the purpose of all these threads Jack? Is it diversion?

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 14 2009,16:32)

Trinitarianism has always held to the belief that God is three persons making up one substance. Each person is distinct from the other both in His person and His acts.

Exactly!

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 14 2009,16:32)

I had said that the coming of Jehovah in Zechariah 14 was a coming to Israel in Zechariah's own time and that it had nothing to do with the coming of Christ.

So because you say it is, that makes it so? Jack how is it that you can pick and choose in OT scripture where the Father or Jesus are spoken of? Your argument is circular because Zech can be interpreted as Jesus because the Father doesn’t have feet does he? God is Spirit right?

So who is it that takes on form as the “image of the invisible God” Jack? Who was it that spoke to Moses in the bush? Who was it that came down to Sodom and Gomorrah? Who was it that claimed to be the “I Am”? Who was “the rock that followed them in the wilderness”?

What are you saying Jack? Are you saying that the Father does anything without Jesus or the Spirit or that Jesus does anything without the Father and the Spirit? They are “One God” remember? Your argument is circular because Zech 14 can be Jesus and in fact the context demands it be.

And it shall be in that day, “that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem“; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zech 14:9

Tell us Jack, according to the above scriptures, did “living waters go” out from Jerusalem in Zechariahs day? Did the Father set up a throne and become King over all the earth? No Jack this is the New Jerusalem where the living waters flow and Jesus is the King!

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 14 2009,16:32)

Below is WJ's reply:

WorshippingJesus said to the thinker:

Quote

You are contradicting yourself! You say Zech 14 is the Father coming but the scripture you quote shows Jesus coming!

Is the Father the “Son of Man”? Hello! You are sounding like anti-trinitarians.

My trinitarian brother is confusing the two persons here. Below is my reply:

Quote

Nice diversion Jack, but that is not what happened at all.

I had said…

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 09 2009,16:15)

And you totally skipped over this…

… and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Zech 14:5

Jack, when did all the saints return with the Father?

Jacks response was…

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 09 2009,17:17)

The “saints” He came with were His holy angels:

“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.” Matt. 16:27

thinker

Then I said…

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 10 2009,02:02)

You are contradicting yourself! You say Zech 14 is the Father coming but the scripture you quote shows Jesus coming!

Is the Father the “Son of Man”? Hello! You are sounding like anti-trinitarians.

So my point to Jack was that the Holy Angels in the scripture that Jack quotes is “Jesus” Angels, and not the Fathers in the verse. So I gave him another scripture as proof…

“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.” Matt. 16:27

And also this…

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “”See, THE LORD IS COMING WITH THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF HIS HOLY ONES (AV saints)” to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” Jude 1:14,15

But Jack just ignores this and goes about to create a diversion by creating another thread to detract from my points!

Read it here…

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 14 2009,16:32)

WJ again confuses the two persons and their acts:

No Jack, it is you that confuses the two for claiming that “Living waters” flowed out of Jerusalem in Zechariah’s day and that the Father returned with the saints and put his feet on Mount Olives!

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 14 2009,16:32)

WJ:

Quote

… and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Zech 14:5

My reply:

This happened many times in Israel's old testament history. MOSES SAID THAT JEHOVAH CAME FROM MOUNT SINAI WITH ALL HIS SAINTS (ANGELS), Deuteronomy 33:2-3.

Quote

2 And he said:

“The LORD came from Sinai,
And dawned on them from Seir;
He shone forth from Mount Paran,
And He came with ten thousands of saints;
From His right hand
Came a fiery law for them.

3 Yes, He loves the people;
All His saints are in Your hand;
They sit down at Your feet;
Everyone receives Your words.

Jacks interpretation of the above is at best ambiguous! Others disagree with him.

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Commentary concerning Deut 33:2 states…

ten thousands of saints–rendered by some, “with the ten thousand of Kadesh,” or perhaps better still, “from Meribah” [EWALD]. Source

The Adam Clarke Commentary s concerning Deut 33:2 states…
The next place is Paran, where the glory of the Lord appeared before all the children of Israel, Numbers 14:10.
“Instead of he came with ten thousand saints, by which our translators have rendered meribeboth kodesh, Dr. Kennicott reads Meribah-Kadesh, the name of a place”: for we find that, towards the end of forty years, the Israelites came to Kadesh, Numbers 20:1, which was also called Meribah, on account of their contentious opposition to the determinations of God in their favour, Numbers 20:13; and there the glory of the Lord again appeared, as we are informed Numbers 20:6. These four places, Sinai, Seir, Paran, and Meribah-Kadesh, mentioned by Moses in the text, are the identical places where God manifested his glory in a fiery appearance, the more illustriously to proclaim his special providence over and care of Israel. Source

But Jack teaches his view as facts! Yet it is ambiguous at best. So let’s look at it closer.

The Hebrew word for “saints” in verse Deut 33:2 is Strong's H6944 – qodesh which is defined as… 1) apartness, holiness, sacredness, separateness a) apartness, sacredness, holiness 1) of God 2) of places 3) of things b) set-apartness, separateness

However we see that Deut 33:3 the Hebrew word for “saints” is not the same word but is “Strong's H6918 – qadowsh which is defined as… 1) sacred, holy, Holy One, saint, set apart

It is found AV — holy 65 times, Holy One 39, saint 12 in the AV and it is never used in referring to “Angels”!

Bingo, there it is.

The saints (qadowsh) that sat at Jehovah’s feet are obviously the children of Israel, men and not Angels. It is the same word in Zech 14:5 … and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints (qadowsh) with thee. Zech 14:5

Yet Jack says the saints in Zech 14:5 are the Fathers Angels!

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 14 2009,16:32)

Do you think trinitarians have the license to make every reference to Jehovah about Christ?

What is this Jack? You now want to pit the “anti-Trinitarians” against me to support your view? This is kind of ridiculous since they do not believe that any of the references to Jehovah is Jesus!

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 14 2009,16:32)

The coming of Jehovah in Zechariah 14 is no more Messianic then the coming of Jehovah from Mount Sinai with all His saints in Moses' day.

So you say, yet you have no proof and refuse to address the facts!

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 14 2009,16:32)

This is circular Jack, simply because if one instance of Jehovah is Jesus then all instances of Jehovah can be Jesus since he is the “image of the invisible God”, then it is more likely that when Jehovah appears to men it is Jesus!

November 16, 2009 at 10:39 pm#157182

Participant

WorshippingJesus said:

Quote

Seriously Jack, do you want to go down this road?

Yeap!

WJ said:

Quote

Jack how is it that you can pick and choose in OT scripture where the Father or Jesus are spoken of?

Keith,
Who is speaking in the statement “Jehovah said to My Lord, sit at My right hand til I make your ememies your footstool.” Is it Jehovah the Father or Jehovah Christ doing the speaking?

WJ:

Quote

Your argument is circular because Zech can be interpreted as Jesus because the Father doesn’t have feet does he? God is Spirit right?

Keith,
Yes God is spirit. Yet Christ is at Jehovah God's right hand right? If the Father may be spoken of as having a right hand then He may be spoken of as having feet.

WJ:

Quote

Who was it that spoke to Moses in the bush? Who was it that came down to Sodom and Gomorrah? Who was it that claimed to be the “I Am”? Who was “the rock that followed them in the wilderness”?

Christ of course. But Christ is standing next to Jehovah in the context of Zechariah. Chapter 13:7 says,

Quote

The Shepherd Struck
“Awake, O sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who stands next to me,”

declares the LORD of hosts.

Who is the man standing next to Jehovah? It is Christ. Right? Therefore, it is Jehovah the Father doing the speaking. So much for your claim that I “pick and choose.” Now tell me where in the text you find that the Person of Jehovah after that suddenly becomes Christ. If you can't show such a statement then the “LORD” who comes in chapter 14 is still the same person as in 13:7. Therefore, the “feet” reference is merely an anthropomorphism for a coming of Jehovah in Zechariah's day. It is NOT a Messianic prophecy.

WJ:

Quote

Are you saying that the Father does anything without Jesus or the Spirit or that Jesus does anything without the Father and the Spirit?

The three Persons do not act independently of each other. But they do have their distinct roles in the plan of redemption. Are you saying that every reference to Jehovah and His acts is necessarily a reference to the whole trinity? Did the Father or the Spirit become incarnate?

WJ:

Quote

And it shall be in that day, “that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem”; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zech 14:9
Tell us Jack, according to the above scriptures, did “living waters go” out from Jerusalem in Zechariahs day? Did the Father set up a throne and become King over all the earth? No Jack this is the New Jerusalem where the living waters flow and Jesus is the King!

The New Jerusalem is in the new earth Keith. So you are really saying that Zechariah was prophesying Christ's “postmillennial” coming.

It's not the New Jerusalem Keith. The same prophecy was given in Ezekiel 47-48. We know that this was fulfilled in Ezekiel's own time because God told Ezekiel to tell the people that the fulfillmment of EVERY vision would be in “YOUR days” (12:21-28). Are you saying that God did not give them waters of salvation in old covenant times?

WJ:

Quote

So my point to Jack was that the Holy Angels in the scripture that Jack quotes is “Jesus” Angels are not the Fathers in the verse.

What of it? What is this supposed to prove? I don't get it.

WJ:

Quote

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “”See, THE LORD IS COMING WITH THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF HIS HOLY ONES (AV saints)” to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” Jude 1:14,15

It is found AV — holy 65 times, Holy One 39, saint 12 in the AV and it is never used in referring to “Angels”!
The saints (qadowsh) that sat at Jehovah’s feet are obviously the children of Israel, men and not Angels.

To All,
What Keith says above about the saints not being angels in Deuteronomy 33 is a prime example of how heavily he relies on sources and not enough on scripture. I can throw a lot od eminent commenators around too. Keith is not allowing the new testament to be the interpreter like he says you anti-trinitarians should do. The coming of Jehovah from Mount Sinai with tens thousands of His saints was in reference to the giving of the law. According to Acts 7:53 this occurred by the direction of angels:

“who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it”. It was indeed angels that came from Mount Sinai with Jehovah. The new testament says so!

WJ:

Quote

It is found AV — holy 65 times, Holy One 39, saint 12 in the AV and it is never used in referring to “Angels”!

Wow! Jesus said that He was coming with the “holy angels” (Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26). How does Jesus come with men when He clearly said that He comes with angels to gather men at His coming?

Quote

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

How does Jesus come with men when at His coming He sends out angels to gather men?

When it comes right down to it all the futurists have as a “proof text
” for Christ's coming to earth is Zechariah 14. I have shown that the Father is cearly distinguished from Christ in 13:7 and that there is no statement indicating that the person has changed from the Father to Christ. Therefore, the futurists have nothing from the old testament that proves Christ is coming back to earth. I am still waiting for Keith, Paul and Nick to show from the new testament that Christ's return would be to earth. I have aged waiting on them.

The futurists have nothing, zilch, nada in the way of “proof” that Christ would return to earth.

thinker

November 16, 2009 at 11:11 pm#157183

Participant

Hi TT,
Your reliance on your intuition is proving most fallible.

November 17, 2009 at 12:44 am#157196

Participant

POST SCRIPT:

To All,
Our brother Keith denies that ten thousands of angels attended Jehovah from Mount Sinai. WJ says that these were men. But the new testament says that it was angels,

“…who received the law by the direction of angels” (Acts 7:53).

Please note the commentary below by Albert Barnes whom WJ trusts. I will give a lengthy quote so WJ does not find a reason to say that I quote Barnes out of context.

Quote

The word translated disposition does not elsewhere occur in the new testament. It properly means the constituting or arranging of an army; disposing it into ranks and proper divisions. Hence it has been supposed to mean that the law was given amidst the various ranks of angels, being present to witness its promulgation. Others suppose that the angels were employed as agents or instruments to communicate the law. All that the expression fairly implies is the former; that the law was given admidst the attending rank of angels, as if they were summoned to witness the pomp and ceremony of giving law to an entire people to an entire people, and through them an entire world. It should be added, moreover, that the Jews applied the word angels to any messengers of God; to fire, tempest, and wind, &c.

All that Stephen means here may be to express the common Jewish opinion on this occasion by the heavenly hosts, and by the symbols of His presence, fire and smoke, and tempest. Acts p. 133

Keith denies also that Christ would return with holy angels. However, He clearly said that He would come with angels and that He would send them to gather his elect people. How can it be men that would attend Him at His coming when it is angels that attend to gather men?
thinker

November 17, 2009 at 12:56 am#157197

Participant

Further into the mire.
Still trumpeting his success as he sinks in the quicksand.

November 17, 2009 at 1:33 am#157202

Anonymous

Inactive

TT- God also has a mouth and eyes in the Old Testament too. And yes people have been saying Jesus is going to return for 2ooo years, but if you study it more, it tells you all prophesy has to be ful-filled first, than the end shall come.and it is getting there!

November 17, 2009 at 4:43 pm#157298

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 16 2009,19:44)

To All,
Our brother Keith denies that ten thousands of angels attended Jehovah from Mount Sinai. WJ says that these were men. But the new testament says that it was angels,

“…who received the law by the direction of angels” (Acts 7:53).

And why do you lie against me? This is what I said…

“But Jack teaches his view as facts! Yet it is ambiguous at best. So let’s look at it closer.

However we see that Deut 33:3 the Hebrew word for “saints” is not the same word but is “Strong's H6918 – qadowsh which is defined as… 1) sacred, holy, Holy One, saint, set apart

It is found AV — holy 65 times, Holy One 39, saint 12 in the AV and it is never used in referring to “Angels”!

Bingo, there it is.

Yet Jack says the saints in Zech 14:5 are the Fathers Angels“

So you see Jack, before you go accusing me of lies you should look closer. I said verse 2 is Ambiguous as to the saints being Angels. There is ambiguity surrounding the verse by many scholars that claim the statement is unclear.

NIV
He said: “The Lord came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. “He came with* myriads of holy ones” from the south, from his mountain slopes.* Deut 33:2

The following are the footnotes for the NIV and other versions!

NIV Footnotes:
* Or from
* The meaning of the Hebrew for this phrase is uncertain.

NLT Footnotes:
* As in Greek and Syriac versions; Hebrew reads upon them.
* Or came from myriads of holy ones, from the south, from his mountain slopes. The meaning of the Hebrew is uncertain.

ESV Footnotes:
* Septuagint, Syriac, Vulgate; Hebrew them
* The meaning of the Hebrew word is uncertain

Also for your Information Jack, not one of the major translations translates the word “qodesh” in verse 2 as Angels.

The word is translated in the AV — holy 262 times, sanctuary 68, (holy, hallowed,…) things 52, most 44, holiness 30, dedicated 5, hallowed 3, consecrated 1, misc 3

The word “Angels” is not even in the Hebrew definition of the word!

But look closely Jack at the verses again…

And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, “and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. Deut 33:2

Who was the fiery law for Jack? Verse 2 appears to be saying for his saints, and in fact verse 3 tells us exactly who the law is for, because we read in the next verse…

Yea, he loved the people; “all his saints (qadowsh) are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words. Deut 33:2

So you see Jack as I stated, the Hebrew word (qadowsh) is the same word used in Zech 14:5….

… and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints (qadowsh) with thee. Zech 14:5

So Jack will you concede that the Hebrew word (qadowsh) in Deut 33:3 speaking of the children of Israel is the same word (qadowsh) used in Zech 14:5?

Jack can you give me one scripture in the entire OT that uses the Hebrew word for saints “ qodesh” in Deut 32:2 where it is translated “Angels”?

Can you give me one scripture in the entire OT that translates the Hebrew word for saints “qadowsh” in Deut 33:2 and Zech 14:5, as Angels?

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 16 2009,19:44)

This is another lie Jack!

Why don't you show me where I ever said that the Lord was not coming back with his Holy Angels!

As far as the saints returning I will let the scriptures speak…

Notice Jack, Jude quotes Enoch putting the prophesy in the future coming of the Lord with his saints, so it is not about the law is it?

To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ **WITH ALL HIS SAINTS**”. 1 Thess 3:13

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, “even so them also which sleep in Jesus **will God bring with him**“. 1 Thess 4:14

Are they just taking a ride to the clouds and then heading back, or are they coming back to earth with him to execute judgment with him in the establishing of his literal Kingdom in the earth?

Your argument is with the Apostles for scriptures teach that the Lord is returning with his saints!

November 17, 2009 at 5:21 pm#157301

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 16 2009,13:00)

Seriously Jack, do you want to go down this road?

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 16 2009,17:39)

Yeap!

Bring it on!

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 16 2009,13:00)

Jack how is it that you can pick and choose in OT scripture where the Father or Jesus is spoken of?

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 16 2009,17:39)

Keith,
Who is speaking in the statement “Jehovah said to My Lord, sit at My right hand til I make your ememies your footstool.” Is it Jehovah the Father or Jehovah Christ doing the speaking?

Actually it is David under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit speaking. But the reference is the Father saying to the Son. So your point is? You do not have the same situation in Zech 14 do you?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 16 2009,13:00)

Your argument is circular because Zech can be interpreted as Jesus because the Father doesn’t have feet does he? God is Spirit right?

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 16 2009,17:39)

Keith,
Christ is at Jehovah the Father's right hand Right? If the Father may be spoken of as having a right hand then….

But you said concerning Zech 14:4…

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 16 2009,17:39)

Therefore, the “feet” reference is merely an anthropomorphism for a coming of Jehovah in Zechariah's day.

So your argument again is circular! Spin! Spin! Spin! We know that the “Right hand” is an “anthropomorphism”! But your interpretation of Zech 14:4 has problems because it is speaking of a specific place which alludes to the prophesy of the Angels in Acts 1:9-12 and to the Lord Jesus returning with thousands of the saints.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 16 2009,13:00)

Who was it that spoke to Moses in the bush? Who was it that came down to Sodom and Gomorrah? Who was it that claimed to be the “I Am”? Who was “the rock that followed them in the wilderness”?

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 16 2009,17:39)

Christ of course. But Christ is standing next to Jehovah in the context of Zechariah. Chapter 13:7 says,

Quote

The Shepherd Struck
“Awake, O sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who stands next to me,”

declares the LORD of hosts.

Who is the man standing next to Jehovah? It is Christ. Right?

There it is everybody, Jack just confessed that in the context of Zech 14 that the Father was standing next to Jesus, which can also mean that Jesus “feet” according to Acts 1:9-12 touched the Mt of olives! However Jack insist that it is the Father speaking therefore it is the Father alone spoken of in Zech 14. HMMM?

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 16 2009,17:39)

Therefore, it is Jehovah the Father doing the speaking. So much for your claim that I “pick and choose.” Now tell me where in the text you find that the Person of Jehovah after that suddenly becomes Christ. If you can't show such a statement then the “LORD” who comes in chapter 14 is still the same person as in 13:7. Therefore, the “feet” reference is merely an anthropomorphism for a coming of Jehovah in Zechariah's day. It is NOT a Messianic prophecy.

Jack look around for you just said that the Father was standing next to Jesus!

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 16 2009,17:39)

Are you saying that the Father does anything without Jesus or the Spirit or that Jesus does anything without the Father and the Spirit?

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 16 2009,17:39)

Jack, there is no place in scripture where the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit acts independently of the other! Even in the incarnation the Father and the Spirit was present, right? Yes they have their distinct roles, but in all cases where the invisible God makes himself visible it is Jesus. Lets see how you can prove this is not so. You just said that the Father stands next to Jesus in Zech 14! In fact Zech 12:10 states…

and “they shall look **UPON ME** (YHWH)” whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn

So we see Jack that YHWH claims that he will be pierced, yet we know it was Jesus don’t we?

John refers to this passage here…

John 19:33-37
33but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; a
nd he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.” 37And again another Scripture says, “THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.

According to John, Zechariah 10:12 is a predictive reference to the piercing (vs 34) incurred by Yeshua during His crucifixion (“For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture” – v 36). Click here

So if the reference in Zechariahs prophesy concerning YHWH being pierced, though it is YHWH speaking of himself (“they shall look **UPON ME** (YHWH)” yet we know it was Jesus that fulfilled that prophesy), then Zech 14 can also be referring to Jesus! The burden of proof is on you Jack, for the evidence is Zech 14 is a Messianic prophesy of Jesus coming to the earth!

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 16 2009,13:00)

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 16 2009,17:39)

The New Jerusalem is in the new earth Keith. So you are really saying that Zechariah was prophesying Christ's “postmillennial” coming.

John says Zech 10:12 was fulfilled by Jesus some 600 years after Zechariahs time!

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 16 2009,13:00)

So my point to Jack was that the Holy Angels in the scripture that Jack quotes is “Jesus” Angels are not the Fathers in the verse.

Quote (thethinker @ Nov. 16 2009,17:39)

What of it? What is this supposed to prove? I don't get it.

What it proves is that the Angels are Jesus Angels, and that Jesus is the “Lord of Host” found in the scriptures, so if you say that the reference…

… and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Zech 14:5 are Angels then you have to accept that the passage is speaking of Jesus the Lord of host!

November 17, 2009 at 5:22 pm#157302