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In the Boy Scout section Georg asked What is wrong here?
My response (part 1):
Quote So shouldn’t we all wonder why it is that in spite of all the preaching from the pulpits, that in spite of all the churches that are being built, which should indicate that more people are going to church, that in spite of 80% Americans professing to be Christians; we are loosing ground?
In New Zealand fewer and fewer people are going to church and on the current rate of decline in belief we are no longer above 50% claiming to ‘be christian’, including all those who just like the vague cultural christianity not the actual ‘devout belief in silly things’ christianity.Quote We are loosing to the A C L U,
We are loosing to the homosexuals,
We are loosing to the pornographers,
We are loosing to the criminals, not to mention to a secular government.
The ACLU, gay rights protesters and secularists only exist because of the religious. They would pretty much disappear if the religious stopped telling everyone else how they should behave and what flights of religious fantasy the public should pay for. Pornography is one of the longest established art forms in the world. I’m not sure christians ever had that ‘under control’ although many tried to make others’ lives miserable by forcing their views on the public. Atheists make up 0.23% of the US prison population out of a general rate of at least 15% (and probably more like 25%) of non-believers. You can be almost certain your average US criminal is a christian.Had you considered working together with others instead of fighting a losing battle against those who want to be left out of your plans to tell them what to do?
Quote Does anyone have a clue? I mean, if 80% of the people of a nation are praying to God; would you not think that he would hear us?
Good point! Does that not tell you something?Quote Have you ever noticed that your bible teaches one thing and man another? Have you ever wondered why we have so many denominations? Do you thing that is good? Should not all churches be teaching the same doctrine? …
Schism. How does it happen? Is it not interpretation of scripture that does it? Why does scripture have that effect? Is it not because of the countless contradictions and ambiguities in scripture? Modern science works in exactly the opposite way, diverging views are tested, weeded and combined into more coherent theories that eventually just about all can agree on. What use is a scripture that ends with splintering not mutual reinforcement? Is god omnipotent if he cannot write an autobiography that unites?Quote There is just one problem with all that; in order to fix a problem, you first have to admit, there is a problem.
We have two problems. They are climate change and the violent effects of religious fundamentalism. All those who believe things on faith and without evidence give succour to the maniacs who murder in the name of allah, or some god or other. You could help with the second problem. Will you?Quote God was very precise in his instructions in the O.T., those that ignored them were severely punished, for instant Gen. 2:16 “And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat.” v. 17 “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” Whatever Adam was thinking, whether he understood the meaning of death or not, he did understand the command of God don’t eat of that tree.
And yet Adam did not die! If you mean some other kind of allegorical death then god was not being clear about the consequences of eating from the tree. How can you call that a just or consistent god?
(SNIPPED more examples of the merciful god making up arbitrary rules and then enforcing them by smiting, showing his incompetence in managing his creation)Quote If nothing else could proof to us that we are in the end time, the increase in knowledge should do it. The computer alone is an incredible machine. But does this increase of knowledge also include understanding of the Word of God? If it did should not all ministers preach the same? If men of God all have the Holy Spirit, should they not all have the same understanding?
Turn the history of Judeo-christianity around and view it as humans inventing a god and his commands. Then everything you write makes sense.Stuart
My response (part 2):
Quote Where do you go to get understanding of the scripture?
I read the bible. I have never believed it is true but I know many others have come to a position of atheism through simply reading scripture. They did not require any teaching, it was just self-evidently a silly way to think.Quote Whatever needs correcting in our nation, can only be corrected with the help of the Holy Spirit. Paul lays it all out in 1 Cor. 2:1-16, please read it in your bible. Paul was an educated man, a Pharisee, yet he did not try to impress the people with fancy talk, showing off his smarts; instead he came to them in fear and trembling, not because he was scared of them, but rather because he was very much aware of his calling and his responsibility, of the burden he carried to be accurate and truthful in his teaching.
If you believe that you will believe anything. Paul was a zealot and a bully. He told people they would be accursed if they did not do as he said. Note that in this statement he did not tell people to do as Jesus said (that is likely because he never met Jesus and probably never met anyone who had known Jesus, if Jesus even existed). Fear and trembling? Paul? You’ve got to be joking! Read the verses from 1 Cor that you quoted.Quote God does not play games; he says what he means and he means what he says. He does not care to be politically correct; you can’t plea-bargain with him, neither does he listen to Lobbyists. He has given us his word, the bible, and stands by it. By not taking God serious we only show what fools we are.
By not opposing ‘his’ genocide we show what wimps we are.Quote Deut. 30:15 “See, I have set before thee this day life and good and death and evil.”
How will you choose? The choice is yours the time very short!
Is that meant to be a threat? How can you claim you stand for good, when the bible is so full of vitriol and arbitrary killing of women and children by this brutal god of yours? I suppose you will claim that you cannot know all the reasons god had, but then you cannot know what god wants, or whether he really wrote down all that in the bible. The claim of end times is a sick joke, like telling little children that their tragically lost but unsaved friends will be going to hell. How much more inhuman could a religion be?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 18 2008,00:12) In New Zealand fewer and fewer people are going to church and on the current rate of decline in belief we are no longer above 50% claiming to be christian’, including all those who just like the vague cultural christianity not the actual ‘devout belief in silly things’ christianity.
Didn't read all your post Stu, but I want to reply to this part.Fewer people going to Church IMO means fewer people following a system and I think this is good. Going to Church use to be what most so-called respectable people did and since then there has been a steady decline. Is this bad? No it is great news. It means that it is becoming less and less of a tradition or a compulsion. People who go to Church today usually do so because they believe in God and less about being so-called respectable.
In reality true faith doesn't need a system to prop it up anyway and I am as enthusiastic about the decline of going to denominations as you probably are.
In the end we will have hot and cold, none of this luke warm stuff. Looking forward to this as the day approaches.
BTW: Less people going to a denomination doesn't equate to declining faith. It certainly points to declining trust in the man-made system. This is a trend here and in the USA, where many believers are getting back to what it is about and meeting with each other whenever and where ever. Usually in homes. No need for cathedrals, man-made creed and the like.
For example, I do not belong to a denomination and yet I have faith. Statistically speaking I am probably considered one less believer, but in reality my belief is stronger. I don't go to church on Sunday because I recognize that I am part of the Church where ever I go. How can I go to church when the meaning of church is not a place but is what we as people (who are filled with the Spirit) are called. Church is like the word Maori. How can you go to Maori?
There is no mention of denominations in the 1st century, just cities and other physical locales like houses. To the Church of Thiatyra, to the church in Pricilla's house etc means to the true believers who fellowship in that house or who reside in that city.
Denominations started when the mother of all cults abused its power to the degree that there were splits and these splits became the daughters.
When Rome tried to take control of the Christians as they had done to all peoples in their empire, they created a system for Christians to suit their governance. They morphed it into their own image creating the great counterfeit church. The Roman universal church is probably rooted more in this than true faith.
But real faith is about being in the world all the while belonging not to this world but to God's Kingdom. It is a walk of faith and power, not one of tradition and boring made up sacraments.
I think it is exciting. To know of greater dimensions than you can see with your physical eyes. Yes frustrating that people are so blind to such things, but fortunate to be able to see.
t8 I guess I would uncharitably put you in the 'believing silly things' category rather than the cultural “gee I suppose I must be a christian, because they are good people” survey response, and I would have thought in NZ the numbers of people that really believe in virgin birth and even ressurection (two creeds that are generally non-negotiable in organised churches) have probably always been quite small, especially amongst protestant clergy. I think you are following a system of belief, it is just a different way of looking at the same basic premise.
Don't forget that while church buildings are being made redundant by the day in the Western world, the main point is that people are no longer self-identifying as christian, and that is the diminishing category you still find yourself in, curently going from majority to minority. Why do people no longer want the 'christian' label?
Stuart
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