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SF: No further discussion is necessary. I am saved by faith in Jesus words from God. Faith in Gods words that have come through Jesus have cleansed me, made me whole, made me the righteousness of God, washed away my sin, and given me new life in Christ. I am free from the bondage of believing in sin and free from the laws and rules of religion for specific performance. The truth of God has made me free. I was lost in sin but now I am found. You have read or heard the scriptures of a loving God that were given to all mankind. They are for “whosoever” will believe and accept them. You believe what you think is the truth for you, that is fine. There is both love and destruction, good and evil in the Bible. It is your choice which to believe is from God. This is the truth I have learned over thirty years of study and over 20 thousand hours. You can regect it for you but no one can take it from me! TK
Quote (Tim Kraft @ April 10 2011,04:03) SF: No further discussion is necessary. I am saved by faith in Jesus words from God. Faith in Gods words that have come through Jesus have cleansed me, made me whole, made me the righteousness of God, washed away my sin, and given me new life in Christ. I am free from the bondage of believing in sin and free from the laws and rules of religion for specific performance. The truth of God has made me free. I was lost in sin but now I am found. You have read or heard the scriptures of a loving God that were given to all mankind. They are for “whosoever” will believe and accept them. You believe what you think is the truth for you, that is fine. There is both love and destruction, good and evil in the Bible. It is your choice which to believe is from God. This is the truth I have learned over thirty years of study and over 20 thousand hours. You can regect it for you but no one can take it from me! TK
John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.searching the scripture doesnt save you.
know Jesus Christ however, is a different story.what you believe is religious. you studied so much time, yet didnt offer any biblical scripture to support your theology, or any confirmations. So why should anyone believe you when all your doing is stating what you believe and motivate people into salvation.
what you believe and what you are doing is not biblical.
I also told you biblical stories from the bible, and gave you examples, but all you offer me is your unwarrented beliefs. Your own self-righteousness because you think your saved.
Tim Kraft
You wrote:
Quote No further discussion is necessary. I am saved by faith in Jesus words from God. Then the fruit of your faith is to obey all those teachings. Have your changed your ways so that your the deeds of your body exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees?
I ask because that is one of Jesus' teachings you claim to believe in.
Quote (kerwin @ April 10 2011,10:49) Tim Kraft You wrote:
Quote No further discussion is necessary. I am saved by faith in Jesus words from God. Then the fruit of your faith is to obey all those teachings. Have your changed your ways so that your the deeds of your body exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees?
I ask because that is one of Jesus' teachings you claim to believe in.
Come on Kerwin: Jesus said lest “your righteousness, exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees..not your deeds.The fruit of my faith is agreement with what God says about me through Jesus the messenger of truth. Jesus does not tell me what to do, he tells me who and what I am and I agree by believing it is true. Thats called faith in God.
We all were lost in sin/error believing we were separated from God. The truth came, Jesus who received the words of truth from God to give freely to mankind. Whosoever accepts Gods words and believes them becomes what God says he is!
Read John 15:1 and I do not see how anyone could come up with the fruit of the vine not being the words of Christ. Fruit of God is “words of truth”!! What is in the branch comes out as the fruit! Then at V3, the master Jesus says, NOW, YE ARE CLEAN…THROUGH THE WORDS WHICH I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU…!
Is your answer to Jesus, no I am unclean? Or do you agree with the Christ of God and agree that you are cleansed by the words of God through Jesus?
Bearing fruit unto God is accepting the life giving words he says about you and telling the same truth to all others. Those who accept and believe find God those who reject remain lost in sin. Jesus is the “truth vine”! Anyone that beareth not “fruit” or “words of life and peace and salvation” is removed from the vine.
Words are spirit of God, from Jesus the vine of truth. We are branches that when we accept and believe we are grafted into the vine of spirit/truth. When we bear fruit from the life source within the branch it comes out of our mouths. It is the same life giving fruit of spirit of God that we received. It is fruit of the tree of life/Jesus.
Anyone can do good deeds. But to bear the fruit of Jesus one must know Jesus. I know Jesus and will never turn away. The fruit I bear or share on this site and others is the truth that Jesus gave to the whole world. It gives life or it is in error. You can always recognize the truth. It sounds good, feels good, & is good, because it is of God…good! The words of Jesus contain the gospel of Christ, the Kingdom of God,
the Spirit of God, dwelling in the new temple of God, made without hands, the human being. Total freedom from sin. Washed clean by the water of the words of spirit. This is the truth for all, some though will not accept it. IMO, TK
Tim Kraft
Here is what the Merriam-Webster online Dictionary states the definition of Righteous is
Quote Definition of RIGHTEOUS
1
: acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
2
a : morally right or justifiable b : arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality
3
slang : genuine, excellentSo what definition are you using and where did you obtain it?
This is what Jesus stated about the Pharisees.
Luke 11:39
Then the Lord said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness
Here is a related statement.
Mark 7:21
For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder,
The Pharisees did deeds that appeared good but their motivation was hateful.
Without living by the Spirit of God one is doomed to sin and so fall short of God’s glory. One can only obtain and live by the Spirit if they believe God’s promise of righteousness and do all the rest that Jesus teaches.
Note: All Scripture from the NIV, c.2011.
Quote (kerwin @ April 11 2011,19:46) Tim Kraft Here is what the Merriam-Webster online Dictionary states the definition of Righteous is
Quote Definition of RIGHTEOUS
1
: acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
2
a : morally right or justifiable b : arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality
3
slang : genuine, excellentSo what definition are you using and where did you obtain it?
This is what Jesus stated about the Pharisees.
Luke 11:39
Then the Lord said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness
Here is a related statement.
Mark 7:21
For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder,
The Pharisees did deeds that appeared good but their motivation was hateful.
Without living by the Spirit of God one is doomed to sin and so fall short of God’s glory. One can only obtain and live by the Spirit if they believe God’s promise of righteousness and do all the rest that Jesus teaches.
Note: All Scripture from the NIV, c.2011.
Kerwin: Are we not saying the same things? I know what the dictinary states about righteousness. The question is, are you righteous? If you are righteous it is not because of anything you die or did not do. You can only be righteous by faith that God made you righteous by the words he gave to Jesus to give to believers.Faith that God made us righteous. Not by any works or deeds of ourselves. The Pharisees believed in their good works under the law. Jesus said that makes a show of cleanliness on the outside but leaves the individual filthy on the inside.
Righteous from God is perfection in Gods eyes. Saved, whole, clean, sinfree, right standing, etc.!
Jesus clearly said the outward works and deeds the Pharisees were doing would not suffice as righteousness unto God. The inside of the cup(person) must be cleansed.
The motivation of the heart you speak of is the evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder etc. Its the believing of these things within a man that eventually come forth. If you believe you are evil, sinful, sexually immoral, a thief or just unclean and separated from God that creates the motivation you speak of.
As a man thinketh in his heart, so he is! If you believe your heart or inside yourself that you are impure with these evil thoughts, then be cleansed by the words of Christ,… I have made you clean…!
If one believes he is clean and perfect unto God because God has declared that to be the case then his motivations from the heart will follow his beliefs. Think pure, speak pure, think good, speak good, see youself sinfree, be sinfree. Clean the inside first. That is what Jesus came to do with the words of God unto mankind.
So don't live without the spirit of God and be doomed to sin and fall short of Gods glory. Live with the spirit freely given to mankind. When one lives by the spirit by faith he cleans the inside first which takes care of the outside automaticly.
Then you said, “one can only OBTAIN(the spirit) and live by the spirit if they BELIEVE ….”AND DO”!!! You can “do” nothing to help, aid, or make better somhow, your perfection from God through Jesus. It is a gift accepted by faith or NOT ACCEPTED AT ALL!!!
Please make note: I am nothing and have nothing but what God has given me through Jesus. I do not count on my works and deeds but I have a heart full of love. IMO, TK
Tim Kraft,
You wrote:
Quote You can only be righteous by faith that God made you righteous by the words he gave to Jesus to give to believers.
That is not what scripture states.
What scripture states are that those who crave to stop sinning will be righteous as God is righteous if they obey all of Jesus’ teachings.
If you believe that promise will occur and so do all Jesus command then you will be set free from serving sin and so grow to be fully mature in Christ. The fully mature in Christ do not sin even when tempted as is common to man.
Those whom have faith in that promise are credited with righteousness because God will do as he promised through his Son.
I have not yet become fully mature in Christ but as I choose to believe God’s promise I am credited with righteousness. If I really have faith in God’s promise then I will obey all of Jesus’ teaching and grow to be fully mature in Christ just as Abraham believed God and did as he instructed and thus received what God promised.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 12 2011,00:32) its not about works. its about our hearts which Christ came to circumsize.
One is circumcised by living by the Spirit.What are the works of walking according to the Spirit?
Quote (kerwin @ April 12 2011,05:12) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 12 2011,00:32) its not about works. its about our hearts which Christ came to circumsize.
One is circumcised by living by the Spirit.What are the works of walking according to the Spirit?
exactly, works are the fruitSF & Ker: The circumcision in the new testament is the spirit circumcision of the heart by the words(double edged sword) of the spirit of truth. The hardness of heart is being cut away leaving a tender heart to accept by faith and believe the truth of salvation by faith.
If you are a branch grafted into a tree of life the fruit that is produced is the love force of life in the tree!!! Works don't flow in a tree or any plant. Love is the life source and the fruit produced is the words that come from within. You will be known by the fruit of your mouth not by works or deeds. From a clean vessel comes forth pruified, clean, sinless fruit. The fruit of the spirit is not “WORKS”! The fruit of the spirit(words of God) is peace, love, joy, meekness, kindness etc.! IMO, TK
Quote (Tim Kraft @ April 13 2011,04:56) SF & Ker: The circumcision in the new testament is the spirit circumcision of the heart by the words(double edged sword) of the spirit of truth. The hardness of heart is being cut away leaving a tender heart to accept by faith and believe the truth of salvation by faith. If you are a branch grafted into a tree of life the fruit that is produced is the love force of life in the tree!!! Works don't flow in a tree or any plant. Love is the life source and the fruit produced is the words that come from within. You will be known by the fruit of your mouth not by works or deeds. From a clean vessel comes forth pruified, clean, sinless fruit. The fruit of the spirit is not “WORKS”! The fruit of the spirit(words of God) is peace, love, joy, meekness, kindness etc.! IMO, TK
TKhow is that double edge sword means what you say??
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2011,15:02) Tim Kraft, “peace, love, joy, meekness, kindness etc.” are works.
Kerwin: What comes from within a person represents the predominate spirit that is within that person. If we are grafted into the tree of life, Jesus, the spirit of the tree we are grafted into is the spirit of God/truth/life/love. The fruit that is produced from that spirit/life force, hangs on the tree in its beautiful, perfect, clean, spotless manner which attracts those who notice to pick and partake of the fruit/truth/spirit of the tree.Fruit of the spirit is not works/efforts/deeds done.
If one that is grafted into the life source of the tree and produces dry, dead or rotten fruit it will eventually fall to the ground. A dead branch that doesn't produce good fruit is prunned or cut away and thown on the burn pile. IMO, TK
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