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Camillia.
Simple; if you believe in the power and wisdom of Christ and His God, you would never see him as an incompetent king.
Two thousand years of ruling with His saints; and this is what we have? No way.
The professors today are even still confused? What about the flock? What about the laymen?
Christ and His saints will rule with wisdom. Therefore knowledge will cover the earth as the sea cover the earth.
Even the least will know their God. No tears, no pain, no sorrows, no wars, spears turned into ploughshares,
swords into pruning hooks, The desert turned into paradise, the lion will eat straw. They will build houses and live in them,
they will plant, and eat the fruit of it. No one will plant, and some one else eat the fruit of it.
Children will play with the animals and will not get hurt. All will live up to a100yrs old.
Year to year they will come together to celebrate the feast of tabernacles.
Any nation that will not come to celebrate, they will have no rain.
You have been robbed Camillia; of your treasures. The robbers have taken your eggs from your nest and you don’t even know it.
(Isaiah 10) You did not even make a peep.
Speaking of the dragon the Assyrian king. The Assyrian.Isaiah 10:14 And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.
wakeup.
Hi Camilla,
Thanks for your reply .. as you asked, we can do one point at a time .. no problem.
Here is what I said:
This is the kingdom Christ is going to “set up” here on earth, this kingdom is the kingdom that the Apostles enquired about here:
Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Your Reply:
The kingdom to come is eternal, and it is set up forever on a new Heavens and a new Earth. That’s what scripture says plainly.
Camilla, can you clarify something for me please?
Is your whole argument AGAINST the 1000 year kingdom we are professing actually about it’s “ENDING” when Christ hands it back to His Father? .. other words, about matters of ETERNALNESS?
Am I correct in assuming this?
Thanks Camilla.
You always have the right to do anything you want.
But will it be fine with your conscience to ignore true scriptures?
Because that is what you are doing right now, ignoring the truth for doctrine sake.
All discussions should be based on the written word. What else?
One should not cherry pick the scriptures for own gain.wakeup.
Camilla, can you clarify something for me please?
Is your whole argument AGAINST the 1000 year kingdom we are professing actually about it’s “ENDING” when Christ hands it back to His Father? .. other words, about matters of ETERNALNESS?
Am I correct in assuming this?
I guess my whole argument is that : When Jesus returns, we will only know it is Him, because EVERYTHING will be destroyed (as scripture clearly says), that is my sign, that is how I will know, this is the message I want to give to people, do not be deceived. If there is a false return, a false Jesus, a world deceiver, as Jesus said “Do not believe it – Do Not Go Out”.
So, when I hear people describing a future worldly reign as soon as Jesus returns, and there still being greenery/buildings/etc, I am thinking…”No”…. no, no. That is not how it will be. That is not Jesus. Remember, there will be a world deceiver.
Call my beliefs whatever you want : Amil, Postmil, Historical, Partial Preterist – I don’t know, (though, Amil connects better with me). However, Chiliasm (your view – today termed pre-millenialism) seems wrong, and dangerous.
I don’t argue the point with Christians simply because I want to be right. It is a warning, because even the elect could be deceived if possible scripture says.
Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Good verse you bring up. I don’t know the answer. I will look into it.
Btw. I thought post mill means millennium after the coming, not before the coming.
“In Christian end-times theology, (eschatology), postmillennialism is an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees Christ’s second coming as occurring after (Latin post-) the “Millennium”, a Golden Age in which Christian ethics prosper.” – Wikipedia.
This pre mill and A mill, and post mill is something new men have dreamed up.Your beliefs (and Journey’s, Devolution’s, Keras’s, and POSSIBLY Nick’s, t8’s, and Kerwin’s) would fit into pre-mil, (a future one thousand year reign on Earth when Christ returns). This view is held by a majority of denominations today. however, the Eastern Orthodox and Lutheran churches still hold to the same view as me (Amillennialism – or REALIZED millennialism).
I believe in the millennium after the coming, and is in harmony with scriptures;
until someone can come up with scriptures and prophecy, to proof me wrong.If someone showed you scriptures to prove you wrong would you believe them?
Hi Wakeup.
Simple; if you believe in the power and wisdom of Christ and His God, you would never see him as an incompetent king.
Two thousand years of ruling with His saints; and this is what we have? No way.I believe there are two “parallel dimensions” on this Earth, Wakeup. One is ruled by God, and the other is ruled by Satan. God’s kingdom has Jesus leading people to springs of living water and the Holy Spirit connecting them to Heaven, and to His Throne.
Matthew 13:
And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. “For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.”
blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. “For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.”
“The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. “But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. “But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. “The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ “And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ “But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. ‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”
He presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.”
Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. “So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. “The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. “Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
The desert turned into paradise, the lion will eat straw. They will build houses and live in them,
they will plant, and eat the fruit of it. No one will plant, and some one else eat the fruit of it.
Children will play with the animals and will not get hurt. All will live up to a100yrs old.
Year to year they will come together to celebrate the feast of tabernacles.
Any nation that will not come to celebrate, they will have no rain.Again, those in God’s kingdom here on Earth have certainly turned their spears into plowshares and their swords into pruning hooks. The animals living in peace is Christians who do not war with each other but share faith in Christi and God’s kingdom and eternity to come, whether Jew or Gentile. They do not build and another inhabit or plant and another eat, (think spiritually – what do we build, and what do we plant? What did Jesus build and what did Jesus plant? Was He speaking of green plants and houses of wood? Think hard, Wakeup).
Furthermore, knowledge indeed covers the Earth and is no longer restricted to just Israel, is it? “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.” That indeed is knowledge covering the Earth, imo. And, The End coming after the testimony to the nations… what is “The End”, Wakeup. Where else do you hear that term in the New Testament.
Furthermore, year after year, Christians do indeed go up to celebrate the feasts otherwise they have no rain, (what does rain symbolize in scripture, Wakeup?), because the temple is in Heavenly Jerusalem.”You HAVE COME to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant”
“See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I will shake not only the Earth, but also the Heaven.” This expression, “Yet once more,” denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire.”
Camellia.
So you are claiming that you will live up to 100yrs.
And you don’t feel pain anymore; you don’t have sorrows.
Your children can play with the lions, and with poisons snakes.
You will not suffer robbery.
You don’t have any arguments anymore.
You are in heaven.
Rain is now the Holy Spirit to you?
You interpret prophecy as you please.wakeup.
Hi Camilla,
I guess my whole argument is that : When Jesus returns, we will only know it is Him, because EVERYTHING will be destroyed (as scripture clearly says), that is my sign, that is how I will know, this is the message I want to give to people, do not be deceived. If there is a false return, a false Jesus, a world deceiver, as Jesus said “Do not believe it – Do Not Go Out”.
So, when I hear people describing a future worldly reign as soon as Jesus returns, and there still being greenery/buildings/etc, I am thinking…”No”…. no, no. That is not how it will be. That is not Jesus. Remember, there will be a world deceiver.
Well Camilla, we would agree on everything being destroyed, full agreement from us .. we merely speak of the Rebuilding that will commence AFTER the TOTAL destruction .. NOT rebuilding cities .. but survivors building private residences themselves, likely have scattered villages here and there too .. back to simple DIY ways .. SLOW gradual rebuilding by individuals and small groups come together is what will be.
But as to KNOWING it will be Christ and NOT a deceiver, scripture does tell us the SIGN to look out for .. for this very reason .. not to be deceived .. and His sign is unprecedented and mimic proof .. because it is HIS sign alone .. no one else can copy His 2nd coming SIGN .. of which it is written that ALL FLESH together WILL SEE the SIGN of His coming.
So we WILL know when He comes .. BUT .. it is the deceiver we are watching for atm .. this is the one we are told to prepare for .. and what to expect .. most Christians will not even be alive to see the actual 2nd coming SIGN .. the SIGN is for the un-believers .. a horrible & dreadful foreboding SIGN for THEM .. a wonderful sign for those Christians still alive at His coming.
It’s not the signs that will deceive us .. it is only the lack of knowledge that will deceive us .. and like Wakeup keeps saying .. the only way to have the knowledge not to be deceived in the first place, is by knowing the SIGNS of the deceiver and of the Saviour.. and they are found in the prophecies!!
Call my beliefs whatever you want : Amil, Postmil, Historical, Partial Preterist – I don’t know, (though, Amil connects better with me). However, Chiliasm (your view – today termed pre-millenialism) seems wrong, and dangerous.
I wouldn’t call our view Chiliasm .. don’t even know what they teach? .. nor would I even try categorizing your beliefs.
We are self taught .. nevertheless .. EVERY belief (view) will share agreements & similarities WITHIN every other belief .. just like your view of everything (buildings etc) being destroyed at the 2nd coming matches with ours .. but our OVERALL beliefs differ .. that one agreement between us does not make us both Chiliasm or Amil etc ..
I don’t argue the point with Christians simply because I want to be right. It is a warning, because even the elect could be deceived if possible scripture says.
Same here.
Thanks Camilla.
Hi Camilla,
So back to your previous reply I said I would answer .. 🙂
I said:
Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Whose kingdom did it say? .. “His kingdom” .. Christ’s kingdom here on earth is the one having those who commit iniquity “Gathered out of” ..
And you said:
Yes.
Then, what does it say happens AFTER the wicked are gathered out of HIS kingdom? They are caught up to meet Jesus in the air. Plain and simple. This Earth is destroyed. He has gone to prepare a place which will eventually COME DOWN onto the NEW EARTH.Actually no Camilla, it doesn’t say that at all.
By this stage (literal cleaning out of His PHYSICAL kingdom) of the sequence of events that are unfolding with the 2nd coming, the saints will already be gathered with Christ.
This is regarding the HUMAN Israelites NOT gathered into the clouds with the Christians, the Israelites that God is going to choose again of whom the resurrected saints will be ruling over.. not regarding the saints who are already by that stage spirit creatures like the angels .. but this is the beginning of a sequence of events involved in Christ’s restoring of the worldly kingdom of Israel .. being the beginning of fulfilment of past promises to national Israelites coming to pass through our Lord Jesus Christ .. now they (Israelites) will say, “Blessed is he who cometh in the Name of the Lord”.
I think this sums it up best (remember, this is after the cleanout stage, this is the final result of those sequences taking place at the 2nd coming) :
Isaiah 4:3-4
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
“PURGED”
“Spirit of JUDGMENT”
“Spirit of BURNING”
“He that is LEFT in Zion”
“He that REMAINETH in Jerusalem”
“EVEN EVERYONE that is written AMONG the LIVING .. IN .. Jerusalem”
The context is those human Israelites that .. SURVIVED JUDGMENT DAY (Armageddon, Day of Vengeance etc) .. and .. STILL LIVE .. IN .. Jerusalem, who were .. ALREADY .. IN Jerusalem .. when everything was destroyed .. NOW being of those few .. REMAINING .. there, THESE are those SURVIVORS still in Jerusalem when Christ begins setting up the PHYSICAL kingdom.
These REMIANED on earth whilst the harvest of the saints (Christians) took place prior to this event .. because they were NOT Christian.
We know these are humans and not spirit creatures like the resurrected saints because spirit is NOT effected by NATURAL ELEMENTS (heat, cold etc) which is WHY God is going to do this over the skies of the PHYSICAL kingdom we are speaking about in those coming days ..
Isaiah continues >>
Isaiah 4:5-6
5 And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
6 And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the daytime from the heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from rain.
Clearly never happened in the history of planet earth .. why would God bother taking such measures for spirit creatures when such elements have no effect on spirit?
So, it is clearly for the human population .. and it clearly only happens when Christ returns!!
Humans AFTER His 2nd coming STILL ALIVE in Jerusalem and being BLESSED too (called Holy)
So what is going on here?
Thanks Camilla.
Isaiah 65.
“Behold, My servants will eat, but you will be hungry.
Behold, My servants will drink, but you will be thirsty.
Behold, My servants will rejoice, but you will be put to shame.
14 “Behold, My servants will shout joyfully with a glad heart,
But you will cry out with a heavy heart,
And you will wail with a broken spirit.
15 “You will leave your name for a curse to My chosen ones,
And the Lord God will slay you.
But My servants will be called by another name.
16 “Because he who is blessed in the earth
Will be blessed by the God of truth;
And he who swears in the earth
Will swear by the God of truth;
Because the former troubles are forgotten,
And because they are hidden from My sight!17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
18 “But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing
And her people for gladness.
19 “I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people;
And there will no longer be heard in her
The voice of weeping and the sound of crying.
20 “No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days,
Or an old man who does not [p]live out his days;
For the youth will die at the age of one hundred
And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred
Will be thought accursed.
21 “They will build houses and inhabit them;
They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 “They will not build and another inhabit,
They will not plant and another eat;
For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people,
And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.
23 “They will not labor in vain,
Or bear children for calamity;
For they are the offspring of those blessed by the Lord,
And their descendants with them.24 It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain,” says the Lord.Wakeup. There appears to be a contradiction in the text of Isaiah 65.
It is speaking of the new Heavens, and the new Earth.
Do you believe there will be death in the new Earth? Clearly not, because the New Testament says there will be no more death.
Yet, why does it say in Isaiah 65, after mentioning the new Heavens and the new Earth that there will be death?
Surely, this contradiction between this Old Testament passage and the New Testament passages show the figurative language often used in Isaiah. Hence, why the New Testament explains the Old.Isaiah describes His servants called by a new name, (that would be Christian).
Verse 17 says “Behold, I create a new heavens and a new earth”, (to come).
Then, the next verse says “I create Jerusalem for rejoicing, and her people for gladness.”
The New Testament calls this the Heavenly Jerusalem, (Hebrews 12:22, Revelations 21:2, and Galatians 4:26), which is in Heaven then comes down onto the new Earth.
Then Isaiah describes longevity of life though there is death, (that would be on Earth, now, and could be describing the new creation of a man once he is born again, so figurative).
They will build houses, and plant vineyards, (that could be figurative or building churches and planting permanent believers, and then a reality in the new Earth to come of houses and vineyards).
God will hear and answer them, (clearly now for believers, and to come).
The wolf and the lamb grazing together is Gentile and Jew, (Galatians 3:28, Romans 10:12, Colossions 3:11), and then literal in the new Earth to come.This could be two stages of the Kingdom mixed up together in Isaiah, both in Heaven and with Christianity (where there IS death), and then on the new Earth after the judgment of all people, where there is no more death, because death is swallowed up in victory. Do you understand what I am saying?
Otherwise, how do YOU explain the contradiction? How is there death in the new Heaven and new Earth?
Hi Devolution.
Well Camilla, we would agree on everything being destroyed, full agreement from us .. we merely speak of the Rebuilding that will commence AFTER the TOTAL destruction .. NOT rebuilding cities .. but survivors building private residences themselves, likely have scattered villages here and there too .. back to simple DIY ways .. SLOW gradual rebuilding by individuals and small groups come together is what will be.
IYO, would this “rebuilding” after the total destruction be immediately? (Where does the “rapture” fit in for you).
If everything is destroyed, (2 Peter 3), what would you use to rebuild.But as to KNOWING it will be Christ and NOT a deceiver, scripture does tell us the SIGN to look out for .. for this very reason .. not to be deceived .. and His sign is unprecedented and mimic proof .. because it is HIS sign alone .. no one else can copy His 2nd coming SIGN .. of which it is written that ALL FLESH together WILL SEE the SIGN of His coming.
So, what IYO IS the sign.
So we WILL know when He comes .. BUT .. it is the deceiver we are watching for atm .. this is the one we are told to prepare for .. and what to expect .. most Christians will not even be alive to see the actual 2nd coming SIGN ..
So, if “most” Christians won’t be alive at the coming, by “most” do you mean there will be two Christians left, 1000,000?
the SIGN is for the un-believers .. a horrible & dreadful foreboding SIGN for THEM .. a wonderful sign for those Christians still alive at His coming.
It’s not the signs that will deceive us .. it is only the lack of knowledge that will deceive us .. and like Wakeup keeps saying .. the only way to have the knowledge not to be deceived in the first place, is by knowing the SIGNS of the deceiver and of the Saviour.. and they are found in the prophecies!!
I wouldn’t call our view Chiliasm .. don’t even know what they teach? .. nor would I even try categorizing your beliefs
Sorry, I wasn’t categorizing your FULL beliefs, only the basics, (when the millennium is, or will be). There are only three basic viewpoints. Most people here seem to agree with yours, (millennium future).
We are self taught .. nevertheless .. EVERY belief (view) will share agreements & similarities WITHIN every other belief .. just like your view of everything (buildings etc) being destroyed at the 2nd coming matches with ours .. but our OVERALL beliefs differ .. that one agreement between us does not make us both Chiliasm or Amil etc ..
Agree.
Devolution, So, you believe the Christians will be taken up when Christ returns and will become spirit creatures, (then what happens to them). Everything will be destroyed on Earth, but some Israelite’s only will remain unharmed in Jerusalem, and over them the resurrected Saints will rule, with Christ. Have I understood you correctly?
Isaiah chapter four I will look at later.
Camellia.
1.The contradiction is not in the scriptures; but in the reader.
2.Isaiah 65 is about the 1000yr kingdom; they will live up to a 100yrs old, then die, because they are flesh.
3.After the 1000yrs has expired; gog will come to attack the people of peace. To take all their treasures.
Satan and his angels will be destroyed. Death is conquered.
4.Then the second resurrection of all people of all generations. sheep put on right; goats on left.
5.Goats cast into the fire; sheep accepted and changed into spirit, as the saints.
6.Evil no more.
7 Earth still in full of OLD rubble inside and out. Reason? The destruction of Babylon at Armageddon.(1000yrs ago).
8.Earth melted; for new earth.
9.God coming down; we will see His face.wakeup.
Hi Wakeup and Devolution. No offence to either of you. Clearly, we view things differently on this subject, and, I feel quite outnumbered, because most here, if not all place the millenium future. So, I think I will leave off this subject now, and perhaps we can discuss other topics elsewhere, yeah? Thanks.
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