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Quote (Mercy @ Aug. 03 2006,19:09) typrsn, I attend the church in order to associate with others who confess Jesus is Lord! I do not want to be an island in isolation to my faith. I know that I would not be excepted very well because of my “heresies”. But what am I to do?
What is your brotherly counsel?
Mercy,First of all, thank you for your godly natured response.
It is good that you do not want to be an island in isolation as that would be contrary to the Word. I would suggest that you fast and pray to God that He lead to another place of fellowship and worship. You will need to find a place where the Trinity, women preachers, pagan hoildays are not taught. I'm sure God loves the folks at that AOG church, but that is not the issue. I am not judging them. The Word has already judged their doctrines as damnable. You were sometimes darkness, but now a child of light. Walk as light. You are to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them (Ephes.5:8-10). The “them” refers to the works of darkness. If it is not according to the light of God's Word, it is darkness (Is. 8:20).
Quote (Cubes @ Aug. 03 2006,19:21) Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 03 2006,21:14) Quote (Cubes @ Aug. 03 2006,03:32) Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 02 2006,21:45) When we are born again, we have Christ in our hearts. Col. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Col. 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as faith.
Col. 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Hi H,I agree that Abraham believed and it was counted to him as faith.
1. What did Abraham believe and how was this belief demonstrated?
2. How are you able to demonstrate your love for God? How do you show him you love him?
Dear Cubes,Abraham was rightious in the eyes of God in his heart. It was this rightiousness that was accounted as faith. I can't find the scripture at the moment, but I posted it previously on another post. Yet, even though he was rightious in the eyes of God, when he died, he was still held under the bondage of death until the time Jesus defeated death and set his soul and all the other rightious souls free from the grasp of death. The place referred to as the Bosom of Abraham by our Lord is no more, for our Lord defeated death and set the captives free.
As for how I demonstrate my love for God is by becoming less of myself and allowing Christ to work through me. For there is no good in me. The only good in me is he who is in me, who saved me from death's grasp, and that is my precious saviour, Christ the Lord. I love God with all of my heart. He reveals so much of his word to me and I am unworthy. I don't know why God chose me to give so much to. And it makes me want to cry to think he has manifested so much of himself to me. I look at my life and think, what did I do that would earn or merit that the Lord would give me so much of his truth?
I couldn't do enough to thank him in fifty life times. So, all I can do is just keep plugging away doing what he wants. I know there will come a time he may ask more of me and I pray I will not let him down. For he has never let me down.
Hi H,My understanding regarding the same questions I asked you is that:
1. Abraham believed God and demonstrated that belief through obedience. Right up to the moment when the Ram which God provided was shown him in the thicket, he was obeying God concerning his only son, Isaac. Prior to this, he'd moved to another place when God asked him to; he also sent Ishmael away when God sided with Sarah, which was a difficult decision for him I am am sure. In all these examples, I see Abraham obeying God because he loved God.
2. God owns the cattle on a thousand hill and anything else we might possibly want to give him to express our love for him, except our joyful and willing obedience and submission to his will, thus the best way to demonstrate our love for God is through obedience.
1 John 5: 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jhn 21:16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Cubes,Very good post.
Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 03 2006,10:13) Quote (Cubes @ Aug. 03 2006,03:16) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 02 2006,04:09) Quote (Cubes @ Aug. 01 2006,22:27) Hi typ: I have only read what's posted on this page and agree with what you had to say in response to H on the KJV translation (as well as to Kenrch), and HOW you said it, about not isolating verses to the exclusion of others. Very helpful, and in fact, I believe it is what Jesus did when he told the Pharisees that God called them Gods to whom the word of the Lord came… (John 10:35). We are likely to leave scripture unbroken if we follow that advise. Welcome, BTW!
I had been undecided as to the meaning of being born of water in John 3 (though I fully agreed w/ baptism), but the amniotic fld thing had me… I have now decided that it must not refer to natural birth but to baptism based on the following:
1. Every human birth as far as we know, involves amniotic fluid. But not every human will be baptized. Baptism involves a spiritual decision that many would rather not make.
2. It is for sure that every human birth involves amniotic fluid. But not everyone born would want to make a decision to be born by the spirit of God by yielding to the will and rule of God.
It seems to me therefore that Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about these things and the choices and decisions involved. There's hardly any need to choose or decide on how one is born into the world or how one dies. We can't control that really. But the rest, worshiping God in truth and in spirit, recognizing that he sent Jesus to save us and living in love and godly devotion to that end, are things that require our coorperation with God, and so through this backwards way, the cobweb was cleared for me.
Jesus was born by Mary, conceived through the power of the Spirit, but he made a decision and went to John the Baptist to fulfill this requirement. To me that is powerful and conclusive. John also preached repentence and preparing the way for Christ, baptized all who received that message. We can conclude that those did not need to be baptized by water anymore because Jesus didn't need to be baptized anymore.
Jesus was then baptized by the Spirit, I believe, following these things and he entered into the wilderness and his ministry began in power after that. And then we have examples of others who were baptized in the spirit before they were water baptized.
I strongly agree that there are many “what ifs” that we can think of (and people can be natural worriers about things that never happen), but those are the exceptions and not the rule.
Let as many as have received Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior also be baptized into his death and resurrection, according to the scriptures.
Cubes,Paul is speaking to the believers about unbelievers. Who are ignorant of the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.Is it righteous for anyone to abort a child? If you being evil would love your child then How Much More Would Your Father.
Do you agree with Nick's teaching that Our father would deny a child salvation because he could not get to water?
Please don'r dance around the question. If Nick won't stand for his teaching may be you will.
Hi Ken,Why should God condemn someone for something beyond their control? Is God not all wise and just? Is that not what the example of the thief on the cross signifies?
I believe that my post and that of Typrsn that I was responding to acknowledged this. Those are the what ifs which God sovereignly has control over. But 9 times out of ten, the rule applies rather than the exception, you might say.
And by that, I don't even necessarily mean baptism, but anything else.God commanded that there was to be no work on the Sabbath. But on occasion, an emergency arises and a soul needs help. Jesus showed that it is ok to show mercy during those occasions, but I don't believe that by so doing, he also said it was ok for the Jews to treat the sabbath as a Monday morning.
Does this help? Did I dance? (watch your feet).
Cubes,I strongly agree that there are many “what ifs” that we can think of (and people can be natural worriers about things that never happen), but those are the exceptions and not the rule.
Let as many as have received Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior also be baptized into his death and resurrection, according to the scriptures.Sorry Cubes “natural worriers about things that never happen” etc. I just didn't SEE what you were saying in fact it still looks “ify” to me. All most like you weren't sure.
This time you didn't step on my shoes
Hi K,First one hears the word, believes and repents, right?
then what?Quote (Mercy @ Aug. 03 2006,19:09) typrsn, I attend the church in order to associate with others who confess Jesus is Lord! I do not want to be an island in isolation to my faith. I know that I would not be excepted very well because of my “heresies”. But what am I to do?
What is your brotherly counsel?
I'm not sure that trprsn answered your question so I will tell you what I did as I am in a similar situation.Tha problem with most churches is that they don't really confess Jesus as Lord, but Jesus as GOD Almighty or Yahweh in human flesh! Now scripture says God is not a man {Hosea 11:9} so somebody's got to be telling a lie and it ain't God!
I attend church ONE Sunday a month now, primarily to serve. I work at the altar and pray for people. That I can do with a clear conscience because I know WHOM I am directing my prayers to. However, I also understand that even when people do not know, God still hears and answers. Look at the compassion He had on Nineva whom Jonah preached to. God had pity on them because “they did not know their right hand from their left!” (Now that's pretty bad.)
Just so I don't get totally steamed, I stay away from classes which teach a lot of their goofy traditions and doctrines. It will just make you mad, then the arguments start. However, the church I serve encourages free discussion but I've still found it better to steer clear of classes like that. All the same, when the opportunity presents itself I have told them flat out that I DON'T believe in the trinity doctrine. Be prepared with plenty of scriptures to prove your beliefs. They could never refute my understanding of scriptures and if it is a healthy church will simply say, “Well, we will agree to disagree.” Fine with me buddy!
You don't let anyone label you a heretic and don't go saying that about them either, (even though it's TRUE!) Keep the peace until they try to make you say Jesus is God. Our Father will give you strength AND the Words but it helps to prepare ahead of time with scriptures. They WILL try it. Satan does not own you with that lie so he will come back again and again to try to get you to confess it.
I have a chaplaincy and hold my own church services in nursing home and care centers. THIS WORKS! You are able to preach the TRUTH, ditch the trinity doctrine and associate with Christians all at the same time. They live there too you know. Go serve them! The best part is that YOU get to tell them the truth because it is YOUR ministry, (God's actually).
The point is, it is pleasing to God because you are showing charity for the aged, preaching the Word which even the staff will hear and disciple people even as Christ did, one on one.
So my advice is to spend 1% of your time in church and 99% of your time:
Working for Habitat for Humanity
Volunteering at a soup kitchen
Visiting a nursing home with your Bible (Read the Psalms)
Visiting a hospital or volunteering there with your Bible
Writing to members of the persecuted church around the world. (Visit http://www.prisoneralert.com)
Open Air Preaching (See Ray Comfort for tips)
Handing out Bible tracts with a scriptural mesage to people.
Praying!!!
All of these activities do not isolate you but bring you closer to God and His Son, Christ Jesus. They are also WAY better than sitting there warming a pew with people who are already Christians.
Hope this helped,
Semmy
Quote (Cubes @ Aug. 03 2006,19:52) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 03 2006,10:13) Quote (Cubes @ Aug. 03 2006,03:16) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 02 2006,04:09) Quote (Cubes @ Aug. 01 2006,22:27) Hi typ: I have only read what's posted on this page and agree with what you had to say in response to H on the KJV translation (as well as to Kenrch), and HOW you said it, about not isolating verses to the exclusion of others. Very helpful, and in fact, I believe it is what Jesus did when he told the Pharisees that God called them Gods to whom the word of the Lord came… (John 10:35). We are likely to leave scripture unbroken if we follow that advise. Welcome, BTW!
I had been undecided as to the meaning of being born of water in John 3 (though I fully agreed w/ baptism), but the amniotic fld thing had me… I have now decided that it must not refer to natural birth but to baptism based on the following:
1. Every human birth as far as we know, involves amniotic fluid. But not every human will be baptized. Baptism involves a spiritual decision that many would rather not make.
2. It is for sure that every human birth involves amniotic fluid. But not everyone born would want to make a decision to be born by the spirit of God by yielding to the will and rule of God.
It seems to me therefore that Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about these things and the choices and decisions involved. There's hardly any need to choose or decide on how one is born into the world or how one dies. We can't control that really. But the rest, worshiping God in truth and in spirit, recognizing that he sent Jesus to save us and living in love and godly devotion to that end, are things that require our coorperation with God, and so through this backwards way, the cobweb was cleared for me.
Jesus was born by Mary, conceived through the power of the Spirit, but he made a decision and went to John the Baptist to fulfill this requirement. To me that is powerful and conclusive. John also preached repentence and preparing the way for Christ, baptized all who received that message. We can conclude that those did not need to be baptized by water anymore because Jesus didn't need to be baptized anymore.
Jesus was then baptized by the Spirit, I believe, following these things and he entered into the wilderness and his ministry began in power after that. And then we have examples of others who were baptized in the spirit before they were water baptized.
I strongly agree that there are many “what ifs” that we can think of (and people can be natural worriers about things that never happen), but those are the exceptions and not the rule.
Let as many as have received Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior also be baptized into his death and resurrection, according to the scriptures.
Cubes,Paul is speaking to the believers about unbelievers. Who are ignorant of the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.Is it righteous for anyone to abort a child? If you being evil would love your child then How Much More Would Your Father.
Do you agree with Nick's teaching that Our father would deny a child salvation because he could not get to water?
Please don'r dance around the question. If Nick won't stand for his teaching may be you will.
Hi Ken,Why should God condemn someone for something beyond their control? Is God not all wise and just? Is that not what the example of the thief on the cross signifies?
I believe that my post and that of Typrsn that I was responding to acknowledged this. Those are the what ifs which God sovereignly has control over. But 9 times out of ten, the rule applies rather than the exception, you might say.
And by that, I don't even necessarily mean baptism, but anything else.God commanded that there was to be no work on the Sabbath. But on occasion, an emergency arises and a soul needs help. Jesus showed that it is ok to show mercy during those occasions, but I don't believe that by so doing, he also said it was ok for the Jews to treat the sabbath as a Monday morning.
Does this help? Did I dance? (watch your feet).
Cubes,I strongly agree that there are many “what ifs” that we can think of (and people can be natural worriers about things that never happen), but those are the exceptions and not the rule.
Let as many as have received Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior also be baptized into his death and resurrection, according to the scriptures.Sorry Cubes “natural worriers about things that never happen” etc. I just didn't SEE what you were saying in fact it still looks “ify” to me. All most like you weren't sure.
This time you didn't step on my shoes
Hi K,First one hears the word, believes and repents, right?
then what?
Gee Cubes, they would get baptized (if possible) Right?
Quote (seminarian @ Aug. 03 2006,20:09) Quote (Mercy @ Aug. 03 2006,19:09) typrsn, I attend the church in order to associate with others who confess Jesus is Lord! I do not want to be an island in isolation to my faith. I know that I would not be excepted very well because of my “heresies”. But what am I to do?
What is your brotherly counsel?
I'm not sure that trprsn answered your question so I will tell you what I did as I am in a similar situation.Tha problem with most churches is that they don't really confess Jesus as Lord, but Jesus as GOD Almighty or Yahweh in human flesh! Now scripture says God is not a man {Hosea 11:9} so somebody's got to be telling a lie and it ain't God!
I attend church ONE Sunday a month now, primarily to serve. I work at the altar and pray for people. That I can do with a clear conscience because I know WHOM I am directing my prayers to. However, I also understand that even when people do not know, God still hears and answers. Look at the compassion He had on Nineva whom Jonah preached to. God had pity on them because “they did not know their right hand from their left!” (Now that's pretty bad.)
Just so I don't get totally steamed, I stay away from classes which teach a lot of their goofy traditions and doctrines. It will just make you mad, then the arguments start. However, the church I serve encourages free discussion but I've still found it better to steer clear of classes like that. All the same, when the opportunity presents itself I have told them flat out that I DON'T believe in the trinity doctrine. Be prepared with plenty of scriptures to prove your beliefs. They could never refute my understanding of scriptures and if it is a healthy church will simply say, “Well, we will agree to disagree.” Fine with me buddy!
You don't let anyone label you a heretic and don't go saying that about them either, (even though it's TRUE!) Keep the peace until they try to make you say Jesus is God. Our Father will give you strength AND the Words but it helps to prepare ahead of time with scriptures. They WILL try it. Satan does not own you with that lie so he will come back again and again to try to get you to confess it.
I have a chaplaincy and hold my own church services in nursing home and care centers. THIS WORKS! You are able to preach the TRUTH, ditch the trinity doctrine and associate with Christians all at the same time. They live there too you know. Go serve them! The best part is that YOU get to tell them the truth because it is YOUR ministry, (God's actually).
The point is, it is pleasing to God because you are showing charity for the aged, preaching the Word which even the staff will hear and disciple people even as Christ did, one on one.
So my advice is to spend 1% of your time in church and 99% of your time:
Working for Habitat for Humanity
Volunteering at a soup kitchen
Visiting a nursing home with your Bible (Read the Psalms)
Visiting a hospital or volunteering there with your Bible
Writing to members of the persecuted church around the world. (Visit http://www.prisoneralert.com)
Open Air Preaching (See Ray Comfort for tips)
Handing out Bible tracts with a scriptural mesage to people.
Praying!!!
All of these activities do not isolate you but bring you closer to God and His Son, Christ Jesus. They are also WAY better than sitting there warming a pew with people who are already Christians.
Hope this helped,
Semmy
Seminarian,Did I hear you say that Jesus Christ is not God? The Word says He is and if you can't see that it is because you don't have His Spirit. What about these passages?
1Tim. 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
John 20:28 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
Quote (typrsn @ Aug. 03 2006,19:44) Quote (Mercy @ Aug. 03 2006,19:09) typrsn, I attend the church in order to associate with others who confess Jesus is Lord! I do not want to be an island in isolation to my faith. I know that I would not be excepted very well because of my “heresies”. But what am I to do?
What is your brotherly counsel?
Mercy,First of all, thank you for your godly natured response.
It is good that you do not want to be an island in isolation as that would be contrary to the Word. I would suggest that you fast and pray to God that He lead to another place of fellowship and worship. You will need to find a place where the Trinity, women preachers, pagan hoildays are not taught. I'm sure God loves the folks at that AOG church, but that is not the issue. I am not judging them. The Word has already judged their doctrines as damnable. You were sometimes darkness, but now a child of light. Walk as light. You are to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them (Ephes.5:8-10). The “them” refers to the works of darkness. If it is not according to the light of God's Word, it is darkness (Is. 8:20).
trprsn,If you never associate with anyone except those who believe just like you do, what influence are you going to have on folks with those “damnable heresies”? Are you so sure that YOU or I do not also believe things that are not 100% true?
We are told to love and bless even our ENEMIES but poor, unfortunate victims of the trinity doctrine are to be written off as personas non grata? Sorry but your suggestions sound more like Mormonism and JW isolationist rhetoric. Have they had any positive impact in helping people to Christ. Let's try “No”! Why? Because unfortuantely like your post, they lack compassion and love.
Let me give you an example from the Bible. The Lord Jesus taught and discipled ALL sects of Judiasm. That even included the “heretic” Saducees who did even believe in the resurrection! Now that's real darkness. Based on your advice, Jesus shouldn't have been hanging around trying to help them either. In fact, the Pharisees too had mangled the Law into 613 sub-laws with over 39 subcategories PLUS their own nonsensical false doctrines added to that. Still The Lord Jesus preached to and DISCIPLED Nicodemus didn't he? {John 3:1}
There is no indication that while this was going on, did Nicodemus relinquish his place in the synogogue as he was member of the Jewish RULING council. In fact he came to see Jesus AT NIGHT so as not to be seen by others. So he was still a member of that “darkness” as you put it.
God is not looking at WHERE you are but WHO you are. If you love and associate with only those who believe as you, what great thing are you doing?
My friend, I serve at a AOG church which doesn't harp on doctrine and allows free discussion of such things unlike the Mormons and JW's who don't believe in the trinity, don't allow women to preach and do not celebrate pagan holidays! Try having a free discussion of scripture in either of those churches and you'll be labled an apostate and kicked out so fast, you won't know what slapped you. I've been there so I know.
However God has USED these AOG people to bless me, my family AND my ministry because I had compassion enough to love them the way Jesus loved Nicodemus. It is God who opens the heart by holy spirit.
I'm just trying to make sure my act is tight and not be overly concerned over the “damnable heresies” of others. Very condescending of you to say, “I'm sure God loves the folks at that AOG church, but that is not the issue.” It's not? Are you sure God loves YOU for making statements like this? A doctrine can not save so I doubt very much if it can damn. (Lord forgive me for cussin'.)
Bless you,
Semmy
semmy,
That is why I attend AOG. Thanks for confirming that to me.
typrsn,
Thanks for your suggestions. In particular I liked the nursing home and the prison alert ministries.
Hi and welcome typrsn,
There is for us ONE God and ONE Lord Jesus Christ.
God was indeed manifested in the flesh of Christ after the Jordan.
God's son died for men, royal blood shed for puny men.
Thomas learned from the words of Jesus that they saw God when they saw him, because God was in him.Likewise as Philippians 2.13 says
“for it is God Who is at work in YOU, both to will and to work for His good pleasure”Quote (seminarian @ Aug. 03 2006,20:46) Quote (typrsn @ Aug. 03 2006,19:44) Quote (Mercy @ Aug. 03 2006,19:09) typrsn, I attend the church in order to associate with others who confess Jesus is Lord! I do not want to be an island in isolation to my faith. I know that I would not be excepted very well because of my “heresies”. But what am I to do?
What is your brotherly counsel?
Mercy,First of all, thank you for your godly natured response.
It is good that you do not want to be an island in isolation as that would be contrary to the Word. I would suggest that you fast and pray to God that He lead to another place of fellowship and worship. You will need to find a place where the Trinity, women preachers, pagan hoildays are not taught. I'm sure God loves the folks at that AOG church, but that is not the issue. I am not judging them. The Word has already judged their doctrines as damnable. You were sometimes darkness, but now a child of light. Walk as light. You are to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them (Ephes.5:8-10). The “them” refers to the works of darkness. If it is not according to the light of God's Word, it is darkness (Is. 8:20).
trprsn,If you never associate with anyone except those who believe just like you do, what influence are you going to have on folks with those “damnable heresies”? Are you so sure that YOU or I do not also believe things that are not 100% true?
We are told to love and bless even our ENEMIES but poor, unfortunate victims of the trinity doctrine are to be written off as personas non grata? Sorry but your suggestions sound more like Mormonism and JW isolationist rhetoric. Have they had any positive impact in helping people to Christ. Let's try “No”! Why? Because unfortuantely like your post, they lack compassion and love.
Let me give you an example from the Bible. The Lord Jesus taught and discipled ALL sects of Judiasm. That even included the “heretic” Saducees who did even believe in the resurrection! Now that's real darkness. Based on your advice, Jesus shouldn't have been hanging around trying to help them either. In fact, the Pharisees too had mangled the Law into 613 sub-laws with over 39 subcategories PLUS their own nonsensical false doctrines added to that. Still The Lord Jesus preached to and DISCIPLED Nicodemus didn't he? {John 3:1}
There is no indication that while this was going on, did Nicodemus relinquish his place in the synogogue as he was member of the Jewish RULING council. In fact he came to see Jesus AT NIGHT so as not to be seen by others. So he was still a member of that “darkness” as you put it.
God is not looking at WHERE you are but WHO you are. If you love and associate with only those who believe as you, what great thing are you doing?
My friend, I serve at a AOG church which doesn't harp on doctrine and allows free discussion of such things unlike the Mormons and JW's who don't believe in the trinity, don't allow women to preach and do not celebrate pagan holidays! Try having a free discussion of scripture in either of those churches and you'll be labled an apostate and kicked out so fast, you won't know what slapped you. I've been there so I know.
However God has USED these AOG people to bless me, my family AND my ministry because I had compassion enough to love them the way Jesus loved Nicodemus. It is God who opens the heart by holy spirit.
I'm just trying to make sure my act is tight and not be overly concerned over the “damnable heresies” of others. Very condescending of you to say, “I'm sure God loves the folks at that AOG church, but that is not the issue.” It's not? Are you sure God loves YOU for making statements like this? A doctrine can not save so I doubt very much if it can damn. (Lord forgive me for cussin'.)
Bless you,
Semmy
Semmy,It seems as though my post to Mercy has struck a nerve.
Fellowship/communion and association are two different things. I associate with people all of the time that don't believe like I do, but I don't sit and be subjected to erroneous teachings (that I know to be erroneous according to scripture). The ones that should sit in an environment like that are the ones that God has told to. When we read in Acts, we see that Paul customarily frequented Jewish assemblies on the Sabbath that perhaps he might get them to see the truth. Paul was apostle. As was Jesus. As for me being in error, if/when God shows me I'm in error, I abandon it. for example, I preached and taught the doctrine of tithing for 14 years until God let me see the truth about it. When He did, I abandoned that doctrine and will abandon any error God shows me that I have. I have much love for people. That's why I tell them the truth. I have been preaching God's Word for 16 years now and have many in our fellowship that appreciate the truth that God has used me to proclaim. I am the senior minister in our fellowship. Mormonism and JW doctrine is wrong according to the scripture. Just like the Trinity, women preaching, women not having their heads covered, etc. is wrong according to the scripture. I do understand that some of theses issues are not salvific. I just believe in speaking the truth in love as stated by Paul in Ephesians 4:15. To some people, no matter how you speak the truth, it's not love. Paul even told the church at Galatia “have I become your enemy because I've told you the truth? (Gal. 4:16) The job of an ordained minister as myself is to charge some that they teach no other doctrine (1Tim.1:3) and be nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine (1Tim.4:6). Under what circumstances is the truth to be concealed. Where you are has a lot to do with who you are. Have you not read what Paul said in 1Cor. 15:33; 2Cor. 6:17; Rom. 16:17? It is God Himself, the very God of love, who has commanded the believer to judge doctrine and to exercise discernment between truth and error and to separate from false teaching and to discipline sin. It could not possibly be contrary to love to do these things. The loving God commands believers to expose error. There is only one right doctrine, and that is the doctrine of the apostles as we have it in the New Testament Scriptures, and every doctrine that is contrary to that is false and is to be exposed. The Lord's apostles did this repeatedly. The loving apostle Paul, for example, in his epistles to the preacher Timothy, warned about false teachers and compromises by name 10 different times (1 Tim. 1:20; 2 Tim. 1:15; 2:17; 3:8; 4:12, 14).
Quote (seminarian @ Aug. 04 2006,01:09) Quote (Mercy @ Aug. 03 2006,19:09) typrsn, I attend the church in order to associate with others who confess Jesus is Lord! I do not want to be an island in isolation to my faith. I know that I would not be excepted very well because of my “heresies”. But what am I to do?
What is your brotherly counsel?
I'm not sure that trprsn answered your question so I will tell you what I did as I am in a similar situation.Tha problem with most churches is that they don't really confess Jesus as Lord, but Jesus as GOD Almighty or Yahweh in human flesh! Now scripture says God is not a man {Hosea 11:9} so somebody's got to be telling a lie and it ain't God!
I attend church ONE Sunday a month now, primarily to serve. I work at the altar and pray for people. That I can do with a clear conscience because I know WHOM I am directing my prayers to. However, I also understand that even when people do not know, God still hears and answers. Look at the compassion He had on Nineva whom Jonah preached to. God had pity on them because “they did not know their right hand from their left!” (Now that's pretty bad.)
Just so I don't get totally steamed, I stay away from classes which teach a lot of their goofy traditions and doctrines. It will just make you mad, then the arguments start. However, the church I serve encourages free discussion but I've still found it better to steer clear of classes like that. All the same, when the opportunity presents itself I have told them flat out that I DON'T believe in the trinity doctrine. Be prepared with plenty of scriptures to prove your beliefs. They could never refute my understanding of scriptures and if it is a healthy church will simply say, “Well, we will agree to disagree.” Fine with me buddy!
You don't let anyone label you a heretic and don't go saying that about them either, (even though it's TRUE!) Keep the peace until they try to make you say Jesus is God. Our Father will give you strength AND the Words but it helps to prepare ahead of time with scriptures. They WILL try it. Satan does not own you with that lie so he will come back again and again to try to get you to confess it.
I have a chaplaincy and hold my own church services in nursing home and care centers. THIS WORKS! You are able to preach the TRUTH, ditch the trinity doctrine and associate with Christians all at the same time. They live there too you know. Go serve them! The best part is that YOU get to tell them the truth because it is YOUR ministry, (God's actually).
The point is, it is pleasing to God because you are showing charity for the aged, preaching the Word which even the staff will hear and disciple people even as Christ did, one on one.
So my advice is to spend 1% of your time in church and 99% of your time:
Working for Habitat for Humanity
Volunteering at a soup kitchen
Visiting a nursing home with your Bible (Read the Psalms)
Visiting a hospital or volunteering there with your Bible
Writing to members of the persecuted church around the world. (Visit http://www.prisoneralert.com)
Open Air Preaching (See Ray Comfort for tips)
Handing out Bible tracts with a scriptural mesage to people.
Praying!!!
All of these activities do not isolate you but bring you closer to God and His Son, Christ Jesus. They are also WAY better than sitting there warming a pew with people who are already Christians.
Hope this helped,
Semmy
Hi Semmy,Very practical and helpful suggestions.
How should one go about volunteering at a hospital, nursing home, etc and sharing the word with others when just a lay person?
Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 04 2006,01:22) Quote (Cubes @ Aug. 03 2006,19:52) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 03 2006,10:13) Quote (Cubes @ Aug. 03 2006,03:16) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 02 2006,04:09) Quote (Cubes @ Aug. 01 2006,22:27) Hi typ: I have only read what's posted on this page and agree with what you had to say in response to H on the KJV translation (as well as to Kenrch), and HOW you said it, about not isolating verses to the exclusion of others. Very helpful, and in fact, I believe it is what Jesus did when he told the Pharisees that God called them Gods to whom the word of the Lord came… (John 10:35). We are likely to leave scripture unbroken if we follow that advise. Welcome, BTW!
I had been undecided as to the meaning of being born of water in John 3 (though I fully agreed w/ baptism), but the amniotic fld thing had me… I have now decided that it must not refer to natural birth but to baptism based on the following:
1. Every human birth as far as we know, involves amniotic fluid. But not every human will be baptized. Baptism involves a spiritual decision that many would rather not make.
2. It is for sure that every human birth involves amniotic fluid. But not everyone born would want to make a decision to be born by the spirit of God by yielding to the will and rule of God.
It seems to me therefore that Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about these things and the choices and decisions involved. There's hardly any need to choose or decide on how one is born into the world or how one dies. We can't control that really. But the rest, worshiping God in truth and in spirit, recognizing that he sent Jesus to save us and living in love and godly devotion to that end, are things that require our coorperation with God, and so through this backwards way, the cobweb was cleared for me.
Jesus was born by Mary, conceived through the power of the Spirit, but he made a decision and went to John the Baptist to fulfill this requirement. To me that is powerful and conclusive. John also preached repentence and preparing the way for Christ, baptized all who received that message. We can conclude that those did not need to be baptized by water anymore because Jesus didn't need to be baptized anymore.
Jesus was then baptized by the Spirit, I believe, following these things and he entered into the wilderness and his ministry began in power after that. And then we have examples of others who were baptized in the spirit before they were water baptized.
I strongly agree that there are many “what ifs” that we can think of (and people can be natural worriers about things that never happen), but those are the exceptions and not the rule.
Let as many as have received Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior also be baptized into his death and resurrection, according to the scriptures.
Cubes,Paul is speaking to the believers about unbelievers. Who are ignorant of the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.Is it righteous for anyone to abort a child? If you being evil would love your child then How Much More Would Your Father.
Do you agree with Nick's teaching that Our father would deny a child salvation because he could not get to water?
Please don'r dance around the question. If Nick won't stand for his teaching may be you will.
Hi Ken,Why should God condemn someone for something beyond their control? Is God not all wise and just? Is that not what the example of the thief on the cross signifies?
I believe that my post and that of Typrsn that I was responding to acknowledged this. Those are the what ifs which God sovereignly has control over. But 9 times out of ten, the rule applies rather than the exception, you might say.
And by that, I don't even necessarily mean baptism, but anything else.God commanded that there was to be no work on the Sabbath. But on occasion, an emergency arises and a soul needs help. Jesus showed that it is ok to show mercy during those occasions, but I don't believe that by so doing, he also said it was ok for the Jews to treat the sabbath as a Monday morning.
Does this help? Did I dance? (watch your feet).
Cubes,I strongly agree that there are many “what ifs” that we can think of (and people can be natural worriers about things that never happen), but those are the exceptions and not the rule.
Let as many as have received Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior also be baptized into his death and resurrection, according to the scriptures.Sorry Cubes “natural worriers about things that never happen” etc. I just didn't SEE what you were saying in fact it still looks “ify” to me. All most like you weren't sure.
This time you didn't step on my shoes
Hi K,First one hears the word, believes and repents, right?
then what?
Gee Cubes, they would get baptized (if possible) Right?
I believe they would and should.Does this answer your original question to me then?
To be clear, I believe that by grace are we saved, not by our own works. So one believes God unto salvation… as in Rom 10:9 but the belief leads one to repentence and the powerful desire to submit to God's will, follow Jesus and to be more like him. For me being baptized (though it didn't happen right away, was something I eagerly looked forward to) was one way to identify with Christ. Becoming fishers of men after him is another way, and of course, seeking to do the Father's will through obedience to Christ. I also try
to keep it simple. It says that love fulfills all the law, so if we can love, then we are fulfilling Commandment 1 & 2 upon which all the rest of the commandments hang.Quote (Cubes @ Aug. 04 2006,04:53) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 04 2006,01:22) Quote (Cubes @ Aug. 03 2006,19:52) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 03 2006,10:13) Quote (Cubes @ Aug. 03 2006,03:16) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 02 2006,04:09) Quote (Cubes @ Aug. 01 2006,22:27) Hi typ: I have only read what's posted on this page and agree with what you had to say in response to H on the KJV translation (as well as to Kenrch), and HOW you said it, about not isolating verses to the exclusion of others. Very helpful, and in fact, I believe it is what Jesus did when he told the Pharisees that God called them Gods to whom the word of the Lord came… (John 10:35). We are likely to leave scripture unbroken if we follow that advise. Welcome, BTW!
I had been undecided as to the meaning of being born of water in John 3 (though I fully agreed w/ baptism), but the amniotic fld thing had me… I have now decided that it must not refer to natural birth but to baptism based on the following:
1. Every human birth as far as we know, involves amniotic fluid. But not every human will be baptized. Baptism involves a spiritual decision that many would rather not make.
2. It is for sure that every human birth involves amniotic fluid. But not everyone born would want to make a decision to be born by the spirit of God by yielding to the will and rule of God.
It seems to me therefore that Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about these things and the choices and decisions involved. There's hardly any need to choose or decide on how one is born into the world or how one dies. We can't control that really. But the rest, worshiping God in truth and in spirit, recognizing that he sent Jesus to save us and living in love and godly devotion to that end, are things that require our coorperation with God, and so through this backwards way, the cobweb was cleared for me.
Jesus was born by Mary, conceived through the power of the Spirit, but he made a decision and went to John the Baptist to fulfill this requirement. To me that is powerful and conclusive. John also preached repentence and preparing the way for Christ, baptized all who received that message. We can conclude that those did not need to be baptized by water anymore because Jesus didn't need to be baptized anymore.
Jesus was then baptized by the Spirit, I believe, following these things and he entered into the wilderness and his ministry began in power after that. And then we have examples of others who were baptized in the spirit before they were water baptized.
I strongly agree that there are many “what ifs” that we can think of (and people can be natural worriers about things that never happen), but those are the exceptions and not the rule.
Let as many as have received Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior also be baptized into his death and resurrection, according to the scriptures.
Cubes,Paul is speaking to the believers about unbelievers. Who are ignorant of the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.Is it righteous for anyone to abort a child? If you being evil would love your child then How Much More Would Your Father.
Do you agree with Nick's teaching that Our father would deny a child salvation because he could not get to water?
Please don'r dance around the question. If Nick won't stand for his teaching may be you will.
Hi Ken,Why should God condemn someone for something beyond their control? Is God not all wise and just? Is that not what the example of the thief on the cross signifies?
I believe that my post and that of Typrsn that I was responding to acknowledged this. Those are the what ifs which God sovereignly has control over. But 9 times out of ten, the rule applies rather than the exception, you might say.
And by that, I don't even necessarily mean baptism, but anything else.God commanded that there was to be no work on the Sabbath. But on occasion, an emergency arises and a soul needs help. Jesus showed that it is ok to show mercy during those occasions, but I don't believe that by so doing, he also said it was ok for the Jews to treat the sabbath as a Monday morning.
Does this help? Did I dance? (watch your feet).
Cubes,I strongly agree that there are many “what ifs” that we can think of (and people can be natural worriers about things that never happen), but those are the exceptions and not the rule.
Let as many as have received Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior also be baptized into his death and resurrection, according to the scriptures.Sorry Cubes “natural worriers about things that never happen” etc. I just didn't SEE what you were saying in fact it still looks “ify” to me. All most like you weren't sure.
This time you didn't step on my shoes
Hi K,First one hears the word, believes and repents, right?
then what?
Gee Cubes, they would get baptized (if possible) Right?
I believe they would and should.Does this answer your original question to me then?
To be clear, I believe that by grace are we saved, not by our own works. So one believes God unto salvation… as in Rom 10:9 but the belief leads one to repentence and the powerful desire to submit to God's will, follow Jesus and to be more like him. For me being baptized (though it didn't happen right away, was somet
hing I eagerly looked forward to) was one way to identify with Christ. Becoming fishers of men after him is another way, and of course, seeking to do the Father's will through obedience to Christ. I also try to keep it simple. It says that love fulfills all the law, so if we can love, then we are fulfilling Commandment 1 & 2 upon which all the rest of the commandments hang.
Sure Cubes love is the foundation of the gospel. If God didn't love no one would be saved. If we didn't love God we would not confess to believe in Jesus AND be baptized.
Simple, the whole gospel is simple it's the details that confuse men. But when one says that God will destroy someone who has given Him his heart because of not being able to get to water then this corruputs the Gospel of Love.You say that you were not baptized right away. Had something happened would our Father destroy you because of no water? NOT My God!
Quote (typrsn @ Aug. 03 2006,19:24) Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 03 2006,18:45) Dear typrsn, I have heard of your religion and it has scarred a brother that comes to this forum. Let me make sure before I slice and dice your doctrine with the Word of God. Does one have to speak in tongues to have the Holy Spirit? If one does not do this, are they still baptized? And when they are baptized in the Holy Spirit, are they baptized in the name of Jesus or are they baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?
For to say if a person who is baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is not baptized because they did not speak in tongues is like saying a person who recieved the water baptism in the name of Jesus is not wet.
As for you saying I was not saved at fifteen, I rebuke you. Yet, I will pray the Lord forgive you. For only God knows the hearts of men. And it is by faith we are saved. And that happens by believing in Jesus with all of our heart. And confessing our sins unto repentance. The Holy Spirit was given to help us in our walk in faith. It was not given to save us. There is only one name that a man calls on that can save him and that name is Jesus Christ.
H,I don't have a religion I have a faith and that faith is based upon the Word. Your post is very confusing to me. Confusing in the sense that I can't understand what you are trying to say. (I'm referring to the first two paragraphs).
Please don't take my post personally. That's one of the problems today. Many people seem to carry their feelings on their shoulders. I do not need forgiveness from God concerning my post as I stated nothing wrong according to His Word. Your rebuking me doesn't move me either. The Word of God is the expression of His Mind. He could care less how you or I or anyone else feels about what His Word says. Paul was inspired to write in Romans 8:9 that we have not His Spirit, we are none of His. That verse goes for me, you, George Bush, the Pope, Dalai Lama and every one else. Regardless of how we feel about it.
Dear typrsn,Brother, it is good you view it as faith other then religion. On this. I ask the Lord to bless you. For the world is caught up in the doctrines of false religions and have abandoned faith. Some have a form of godliness, but deny the power of the Holy Spirit.
The reason for my rebuke is your teaching your doctrine. For it is not true that just because one does not speak in tongues when recieving the baptism of the Holy Spirit that they have not been baptized. This could not be further from the truth.
And I will explain why. I ask that you please forget the words of men and the doctrinal teachings you have been taught, for they are not so.
When a child recieves the baptism, their minds are not cluttered up with doubt as those who are adults. That is why a child is so open when recieving the baptism. What has happened is somewhere in the life of the adult who is recieving the baptism, the enemy has planted a seed of doubt. So when the person recieves the baptism, this doubt is blocking them from speaking in tongues. For it is a matter of faith. Just as salvation. It is a step in faith. All things are of faith. I pray that you understand. I ask that my rebuke be taken not as one who did so out of a heart that was intent on driving a wedge, but out of one who has seen a brother and his wife scarred by this type of thinking and know that your doctrine on this matter is not sound. I pray you consider these words. For on this, we will never agree. For one gets baptized reguardless, as long as the words are spoken. It is a matter of the heart and of faith.
So please, understand, my rebuke is not meant to take us apart, but bring us together in brotherly love.
Dear Cubes,
Sister, you are right when you say that it was with works that Abraham was made righteous. Yet, but it was not works alone. If it it were works alone, all those who did the same would have been seen as righteous in the eyes of the Lord.
Abraham believed in his heart. He believed that if he obeyed God, that his sins would be forgiven and he would be looked upon as righteous and that the promise given him of salvation, Jesus Christ, would save him from death. It was his believing heart that made him righteous in the eyes of God.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 04 2006,15:50) Quote (typrsn @ Aug. 03 2006,19:24) Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 03 2006,18:45) Dear typrsn, I have heard of your religion and it has scarred a brother that comes to this forum. Let me make sure before I slice and dice your doctrine with the Word of God. Does one have to speak in tongues to have the Holy Spirit? If one does not do this, are they still baptized? And when they are baptized in the Holy Spirit, are they baptized in the name of Jesus or are they baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?
For to say if a person who is baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is not baptized because they did not speak in tongues is like saying a person who recieved the water baptism in the name of Jesus is not wet.
As for you saying I was not saved at fifteen, I rebuke you. Yet, I will pray the Lord forgive you. For only God knows the hearts of men. And it is by faith we are saved. And that happens by believing in Jesus with all of our heart. And confessing our sins unto repentance. The Holy Spirit was given to help us in our walk in faith. It was not given to save us. There is only one name that a man calls on that can save him and that name is Jesus Christ.
H,I don't have a religion I have a faith and that faith is based upon the Word. Your post is very confusing to me. Confusing in the sense that I can't understand what you are trying to say. (I'm referring to the first two paragraphs).
Please don't take my post personally. That's one of the problems today. Many people seem to carry their feelings on their shoulders. I do not need forgiveness from God concerning my post as I stated nothing wrong according to His Word. Your rebuking me doesn't move me either. The Word of God is the expression of His Mind. He could care less how you or I or anyone else feels about what His Word says. Paul was inspired to write in Romans 8:9 that we have not His Spirit, we are none of His. That verse goes for me, you, George Bush, the Pope, Dalai Lama and every one else. Regardless of how we feel about it.
Dear typrsn,Brother, it is good you view it as faith other then religion. On this. I ask the Lord to bless you. For the world is caught up in the doctrines of false religions and have abandoned faith. Some have a form of godliness, but deny the power of the Holy Spirit.
The reason for my rebuke is your teaching your doctrine. For it is not true that just because one does not speak in tongues when recieving the baptism of the Holy Spirit that they have not been baptized. This could not be further from the truth.
And I will explain why. I ask that you please forget the words of men and the doctrinal teachings you have been taught, for they are not so.
When a child recieves the baptism, their minds are not cluttered up with doubt as those who are adults. That is why a child is so open when recieving the baptism. What has happened is somewhere in the life of the adult who is recieving the baptism, the enemy has planted a seed of doubt. So when the person recieves the baptism, this doubt is blocking them from speaking in tongues. For it is a matter of faith. Just as salvation. It is a step in faith. All things are of faith. I pray that you understand. I ask that my rebuke be taken not as one who did so out of a heart that was intent on driving a wedge, but out of one who has seen a brother and his wife scarred by this type of thinking and know that your doctrine on this matter is not sound. I pray you consider these words. For on this, we will never agree. For one gets baptized reguardless, as long as the words are spoken. It is a matter of the heart and of faith.
So please, understand, my rebuke is not meant to take us apart, but bring us together in brotherly love.
H,My doctrine is not mine but His that sent me (John 7:16). Your rebuke is the last thing on my mind. Neither have I judged your intent. I do believe you to be sincere, but sincerely wrong. The only words that I am willing to consider are the words of the apostles and prophets (Heb. 2:3; Heb. 3:1; Jn. 17:20; Ephes. 2:20; 2Tim. 2:7) and those that are agreement with them. Support your statements with scripture.
Since I have to minister today, tomorrow and the next, I will more than likely not be able to post again until Monday.
Consider what you may, but consider this as well. No place does it say that if you do not speak in tongues that you have not recieved the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Your zealousness in wonderful, but to teach things that are contrary to the word of God is not wonderful.
I have battled with some who were under the belief that is was with water that saves us. This is rediculous. Now you are making the claim that one must be baptized in the Holy Spirit to be saved. This is rediculous. It is by faith we are saved. It is the free gift from God. It comes by believing in Christ. We are born again by asking him for forgiveness of our sins. He cleanses us with his blood. He resides in our hearts. There is no other name that can save us. Can you recieve the Holy Spirit without asking Christ into your heart and be forgiven, sanctified, made holy, frist. No. The Holy Spirit of God cannot come into an unclean vessel. It must first be made Holy. And it is made Holy through the blood of Christ.
Jesus said, no man can come to the Father, but through me.
Romans 10:9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:13 For, “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Ephesians 2:8 for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
2 Timothy 1:9 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,
Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Dear typrsn,
I think where your understanding is wrong is when a man is saved. Brother, don't you think that when a man is saved that the Holy Spirit is not involved? What is it that convicts the heart of that man? Who is it that calls that man? Is it not God that draws men to repentance?
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Look at the order in which the events occurred. They repented, recieved water baptism, then the baptism of the Holy Spirit. To say if one does not get baptized by water or to say that if one does not get baptized in the Holy Spirit does is not saved is an attempt to rob one of their salvation. This is not of God. The baptisms are very important, but they if one does not have it, it does not mean they are not saved.
Yet, and this is very important, it does make the walk of the believer a difficult walk. For they should seek the baptisms. For they help in the walk of faith. The gifts of the spirit our an essential part of the church.
We should not allow any room for the enemy. We should have the baptisms. We should arm ourselves in the full armor of the faith. And to not have the baptisms is to allow weakness in the faith.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 04 2006,16:39) Consider what you may, but consider this as well. No place does it say that if you do not speak in tongues that you have not recieved the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Your zealousness in wonderful, but to teach things that are contrary to the word of God is not wonderful. I have battled with some who were under the belief that is was with water that saves us. This is rediculous. Now you are making the claim that one must be baptized in the Holy Spirit to be saved. This is rediculous. It is by faith we are saved. It is the free gift from God. It comes by believing in Christ. We are born again by asking him for forgiveness of our sins. He cleanses us with his blood. He resides in our hearts. There is no other name that can save us. Can you recieve the Holy Spirit without asking Christ into your heart and be forgiven, sanctified, made holy, frist. No. The Holy Spirit of God cannot come into an unclean vessel. It must first be made Holy. And it is made Holy through the blood of Christ.
Jesus said, no man can come to the Father, but through me.
H,I will respond to this post and the one below. After that I am through with this particular discussion with you as I have plenty of other things to do (as I'm sure you do as well) than go back and forth over these issues. I'd rather be a good steward of the time that God has allotted me here on earth. Regardless of what I say, you will not be persuaded anyway. All things will be disclosed when the Judge comes.
First of all, when did I ever say anything about tongues? You assumed something, correct? What was your assumption based upon? Is it wrong to assume? If the answer is yes. Then you were wrong to assume that I was referring to tongues when I did not mention the subject one time in any of my posts. (Think about the profoundness of what I just said).
I do have a zeal of God, but it is according to the knowledge of God (Rom. 10:2,3). I never said water in and of itself saved anybody. It is faith that saves. Faith unfeigned is the prerequisite. Jesus said “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned (Mark 16:16). So even if a person is baptized, they are not saved unless they believe (Acts 8:36,37). True faith produces obedience as the writer mentions in Hebrews 11. Do you think Noah and his family would have been saved if he would not have prepared the ark (Heb. 11:7; 1Pet. 3:21)? Those of old obtained a good report through their faith that caused them to do something (Heb. 11:2). Everything we receive from God, we receive by faith. Why you think He tells us in Is. 55:1 “Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price”? What do we buy with? We buy with our faith. What money is in the natural economy, faith is in the spiritual. Without faith we need not expect to receive anything from God (Heb. 11:6; James 1:5-7; Mark 5:34; Luke 5:20; Luke 18:42; Mark 10:52; Matt. 9:22; Heb. 4:2).
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Aug. 04 2006,17:29) Romans 10:9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:13 For, “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Ephesians 2:8 for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
2 Timothy 1:9 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,
Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Dear typrsn,
I think where your understanding is wrong is when a man is saved. Brother, don't you think that when a man is saved that the Holy Spirit is not involved? What is it that convicts the heart of that man? Who is it that calls that man? Is it not God that draws men to repentance?
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Look at the order in which the events occurred. They repented, recieved water baptism, then the baptism of the Holy Spirit. To say if one does not get baptized by water or to say that if one does not get baptized in the Holy Spirit does is not saved is an attempt to rob one of their salvation. This is not of God. The baptisms are very important, but they if one does not have it, it does not mean they are not saved.
Yet, and this is very important, it does make the walk of the believer a difficult walk. For they should seek the baptisms. For they help in the walk of faith. The gifts of the spirit our an essential part of the church.
We should not allow any room for the enemy. We should have the baptisms. We should arm ourselves in the full armor of the faith. And to not have the baptisms is to allow weakness in the faith.
H,It is the Spirit of God that woos us, but the question is…how do we respond to the wooing of God by His Spirit? So you're saying that because they were pricked in their hearts they were saved? God certainly has to deal with a person before they can be delivered. But, God dealing with a person doesn't alone consitute that person's deliverance. It is their response to the wooing that's the determining factor. Paul called this “the goodness of God” in Rom. 2:4. God dealt with Cain through His goodness in Gen. 4, but Cain did not respond properly. He didn't change his mind. He wooed the people through Noah, but they did not respond properly (1 Pet 3:18-20; Gen. 6). Unless there is sorrow to the point of repentance, there is no deliverance (2Cor. 7:8-10).
As I mentioned in my last response, I am done communicating with you on this particular issue. Thanks for your time.
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