What is sin this thread is for tim kraft.

Participant

Hi Tim,

Sinless perfection is the result of one no longer sinning. (1John 3:9-10)
I assumed you were aware of what sin was; but you proved otherwise.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 4, 2011 at 11:16 am#257633

Participant

Quote (ftk @ Sep. 04 2011,21:39)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,11:30)

Hey Tim,

Do you believe Jesus' death on the cross was necessary for our salvation?

Ed: I don't know! The Bible doesn't say. TK

Hi Tim,

The Bible most certainly does say!

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us,
that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. (1Thessalonians 5:9-10)

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that HolySpirit of promise, Which is the earnest
of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Eph.1:13-14)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 4, 2011 at 11:38 am#257634

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,11:37)

Quote (ftk @ Sep. 03 2011,22:17)

Read…The Error of Job..by K.A. Williams….Finished Work Ministries, Alabama…order 1-256-771-5667 or [email protected] or Kindle Books has it. Really good reading for all. TK

Hi Tim,

Was Job (before his troubles) perfect or in error?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed: Your trickery is noted! Job was perfect and upright. Then came his family and his possessions, still perfect! Then Job got away from respect and faith in God and got over into fear of loss. He was beginning to fear or be afraid that something bad was going to happen to them, which is why he began to sanctify them and rise up early to offer burnt offerings according to the number of them (or for all of them) for Job said(in his heart) If may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. He did these things continuously.

Fear is the opposite of faith. Fearing God had better be understood as Respecting God or it will sever a mind from God. Job was falling prey to fear. Only fear would cause a man to do an over do something to protect himself or another.

When God ask Satan, hast thou considered my servant Job he was saying, ….have you put your mark on my servant Job?….Satan said….Hast not thou made a hedge or fence round about everything he has to bless him and bless the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land?

put forth thine hand against and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee…

God would not strike against Job. When satan did much destruction happened.

As we all are, Job was able to be deceived by his own choices. The power of deception is only applicable to a person who doesn't know the truth or a person that cannot hold fast to the truth during a storm of temptation.

Through it all Job did not sin (by doing good or doing bad?) with his lips…..Job never blamed God for his pain and suffering. Remember that Job had no idea that the deceiving destructive thoughts he heard were from an opposing force against God.

Most important is when God is in your life, its good and if Satan or deception is in your life, it can be horrible. TK

September 4, 2011 at 1:11 pm#257643

Participant

Quote (ftk @ Sep. 04 2011,22:38)

Job never blamed God for his pain and suffering.

Hi Tim,

The Scriptures seem to disagree with you here on this point as well…

Job 9:22 This is one thing, therefore I(Job) said it, He(God) destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.
Job 27:2 As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul;

Quote (ftk @ Sep. 04 2011,22:38)

Ed: Your trickery is noted!

What trickery?

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,11:37)

Was Job (before his troubles) perfect or in error?

Job's error was obviously in blaming God for his troubles; do you disagree?

Also why did God tell Job to make an offering for Job's friends? (Job 42:8)
If this seems to be your contention for Job's troubles in the first place?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 4, 2011 at 5:16 pm#257657

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 05 2011,00:11)

Quote (ftk @ Sep. 04 2011,22:38)

Job never blamed God for his pain and suffering.

Hi Tim,

The Scriptures seem to disagree with you here on this point as well…

Quote (ftk @ Sep. 04 2011,22:38)

Ed: Your trickery is noted!

What trickery?

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,11:37)

Was Job (before his troubles) perfect or in error?

Job's error was obviously in blaming God for his troubles; do you disagree?

Also why did God tell Job to make an offering for Job's friends? (Job 42:8)
If this seems to be your contention for Job's troubles in the first place?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed: Having the ability to look at Jobs life and lessons from the perspective of front to back we are able to see that Job was greatly blessed along with family members until satan/fear came on the scene. Once Satan was involved Jobs life and family went to hell in a hurry.

I believe its because Job began to fear for his families destruction coming on his family he drew that destruction into his life with fear. Fear is the deceivers only form of power. Fear of evil or bad things happening is opposite to faith in life/good. Job said things about God but they weren't true. When Job said he destroyeth the perfect and the wicked it is true that he said that but what he said is not true. It wasn't God who did any destruction to Job, it was satan, evil, bad, thinking mixed with fear that brought on all Jobs problems.

I'm out of time. I have to go, more on this later. Bless you, TK

September 4, 2011 at 6:11 pm#257659

Participant

Quote

It wasn't God who did any destruction to Job, it was satan, evil, bad, thinking mixed with fear that brought on all Jobs problems.

it happen with Gods permission ,and because Satan jealousy over any one that worship God in the way that Job did,

Satan insulted Job of being a hypocrite in his faith ,

Pierre

September 4, 2011 at 6:17 pm#257660

Participant

Quote

as far that i can read it in scriptures Job never sinned against his God,

and Job knowledge was the truth but it looks that he still had to learn more of truth of God ,are we not all in this condition this is the same when Christ came his disciples they learn more in 3/1/2 years than in all their years prior to that time,

Pierre

September 5, 2011 at 11:46 am#257686

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 05 2011,05:11)

Quote

It wasn't God who did any destruction to Job, it was satan, evil, bad, thinking mixed with fear that brought on all Jobs problems.

it happen with Gods permission ,and because Satan jealousy over any one that worship God in the way that Job did,

Satan insulted Job of being a hypocrite in his faith ,

Pierre

Pierre: God will let you do anything. Look at all the killing and evil being performed in the earth. God gave the earth to man. Man has been ruling the earth either his way or Gods way since the beginning!

Maybe from an overview you can see clearer! God blessed Job as Job walked upright before God and lived a life or perfection and blessing. All was well in the life of Job. UNTIL!

Job (at 1:5) began to rise up early in the morning to sanctify his family and began to perform burnt offerings for each one of them because Job said in his mind,…It may be that my sons have sinned and cursed (said bad against) God, IN THEIR HEARTS! That's where sin is. In the heart/mind!!
Thus did Job continually!! Job had fallen into fear(the opposite to God) that harm was to come to his family. At another point Job was bemoaning the fact that , …..what I so greatly feared has come upon me…! Fear in your heart is evil and attracts more evil!! Fear is the opposite of faith or God. Fearing will bring the thing being feared into your life if you do it long and hard enough.

So Job fears draw attention from evil!
So evil comes, Satan(the opposing, attacking force). God asks Satan, …..have you considered(put your mark on, heaped on, influenced evil upon) my servant Job.

Satan's answer was well haven't you built a hedge/wall/fence of protection around him, his house, and around everything Job has? And blessed his hands and his substance has increased in the land? But PUT FORTH YOUR HAND AGAINST HIM AND TOUCH ALL THAT HE HATH AND HE WILL CURSE YOU TO YOUR FACE!

God wouldn't come against Job. But he reminded Satan that Job had placed himself within the destruction of evil through his fears so Job had made himself and his family open game for evil to perform.

When evil came on the scene Job began to lose it all. But he never blamed God. That would be an error/sin. God was the benefactor not the destroyer. Sin never left Jobs “lips”. (Sin is not something you do or don't do.)

Read carefully and you will see God would not destroy, Mans fears will bring evil to himself, that will destroy completely. But if at any time a man repents/turns away from fear and evil, and believes and trusts God he will return to blessings and peace in life. TK

September 5, 2011 at 2:44 pm#257688

Participant

Quote (ftk @ Sep. 06 2011,05:46)

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 05 2011,05:11)

Quote

It wasn't God who did any destruction to Job, it was satan, evil, bad, thinking mixed with fear that brought on all Jobs problems.

it happen with Gods permission ,and because Satan jealousy over any one that worship God in the way that Job did,

Satan insulted Job of being a hypocrite in his faith ,

Pierre

Maybe from an overview you can see clearer! God blessed Job as Job walked upright before God and lived a life or perfection and blessing. All was well in the life of Job. UNTIL!

So Job fears draw attention from evil!
So evil comes, Satan(the opposing, attacking force). God asks Satan, …..have you considered(put your mark on, heaped on, influenced evil upon) my servant Job.

God wouldn't come against Job. But he reminded Satan that Job had placed himself within the destruction of evil through his fears so Job had made himself and his family open game for evil to perform.

your view on this is strange ,and not in line with truth of God

Pierre

September 6, 2011 at 11:13 am#257755

Participant

Pierre: You say my way is strange. Yet you have no problem apparently, believing doctrines that say Gods perfect creation is imperfect, bad, evil, wrong, etc.! You actually will knowingly deny Gods words to man of sinless perfection through Jesus/God, in order to stand on your preconceived perceptions and doctrines that mankind is sinful and dirty and evil. You have to actually create a list of “sins” to “not do” for the Bible doesn't give a list.

We must stop self-condemnation! Condemning ourselves as sinners or wrong doers or bad or any form of unrighteous judgment will create that belief in your life. You will reap the beliefs your choose to sow as your own. Sow evil, and reap evil in life. Sow love, freedom, pureness, cleanliness, and perfection from God and reap the same.

There are many words and phrases in the book composite called the Bible. Many things are said over and over in the prophets, the same truth just presented in different ways. The truth from God is pretty easy and plain. God has done the cleansing work for us, given the words of this truth to Jesus and given to “whosoever will believe”!! Being able to accept Gods truth is not so easy for some. The more steeped in religion with their destructive doctrines of a God of vengeance and hell and torture for those children who don't act right, are more difficult to dig out and remove completely. Your choice, it's worth the effort! IMO, TK

September 6, 2011 at 3:31 pm#257769

Participant

Quote

Jn 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.’”

Jn 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their DEEDS were evil.
Jn 3:20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Jn 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

Jn 4:14 but whoever DRINKS the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

Jn 4:37 Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true.
Jn 4:38 I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have REAPED the benefits of their labor.”

Jn 5:24 “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

Jn 5:29 and come out—those who have DONE good will rise to live, and those who have DONE evil will rise to be condemned.

Jn 6:36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
Jn 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Jn 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

YOU TALK ABOUT THINGS YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND ,YOU DO NOT LISTSEN TO SCRIPTURES AND SO ARE IN THE DARK,

THOSE ARE ONLY A FEW SCRIPTURES BUT I CAN SHOW MANY MORE.

Pierre

September 6, 2011 at 10:33 pm#257783

Participant

Pierre: When you read a scripture like John5:24….Jn 5:24 “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life…. How do you support the idea of doing good for credit or doing bad for judgment. Works to be good or works to be bad? That kind of thinking is of this physical world not of spirit of truth in Christ.

Whoever HEARS and BELIEVES the father who sent Jesus, HAS ETERNAL LIFE!! Not is on his way to doing something good or bad. He better act right or not act bad or wrong. He who hears(the truth) and believes WILL NOT BE CONDEMNED!!!!! HE HAS CROSSED OVER FROM DEATH TO LIFE!!!!!

This scripture says the man will not be condemned, judged against, held accountable etc.! There is no judgment for those in Christ. Do you say that is a lie? Do you look for a judgment day when all will be judged according to their works? Is that how you want to be judged? Do you think you can act good enough for God to accept you?

If you believe in works and deeds for cleansing and purification you will be judged by those works and deeds and they will fail miserably no matter what they were!! You might want to pay some attention to what I write. I get nothing for my efforts to share with you, my brother, what I have found to be the truth.

By faith alone are you saved, and that not of works lest any man should boast,….Like you might say, hey look at me how good I am doing!! When you believe the truth, judgment has come and there is no condemnation(error or wrong). Judgment is of your faith not of your attempts to be good. When you accept that Jesus took away your sin, then you are clean, sinfree and perfect unto God.
What further judgment could there be? What God hath called clean let no man call dirty! All IMO, TK

September 6, 2011 at 10:44 pm#257785

Participant

Pierre: You also quoted…. John 5:28….In which all that are in the graves will hear his voice and shall come forth —those who have DONE good(believed God through Jesus) will rise to live(have eternal life), and those who have DONE evil(works, deeds, followed laws, rituals etc., to attempt to be good) will face a resurrection of damnation or rise to be condemned. TK

September 6, 2011 at 11:05 pm#257788

Proclaimer

Participant

The faith and works debate is interesting.
There is no work that we can do that makes us perfect because the soul that sins must die.
However, in order to receive the free gift of salvation, a work or response is required from us.

Similarly, if I inherit a fortune, I still might be required to sign a document in order to receive it legally.

This is a good thing because not all receive the free gift of salvation and the required response is there to sort out those who receive the free gift and those who reject it.

Otherwise all would be saved if repentance was not required for example.

September 7, 2011 at 2:02 am#257801

Kila

Participant

Quote (ftk @ Sep. 05 2011,22:46)

Pierre: God will let you do anything.

Hi Tim,

This is a false statement.

1) God wouldn't let Balaam curse the children of Israel.
2) God wouldn't let Pharaoh keep the children of Israel as slaves.
3) God wouldn't let the Apostle Paul (Shaool) be killed by those taking an oath to kill him.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 7, 2011 at 2:10 am#257802

Kila

Participant

Quote (ftk @ Sep. 05 2011,04:16)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 05 2011,00:11)

Quote (ftk @ Sep. 04 2011,22:38)

Job never blamed God for his pain and suffering.

Hi Tim,

The Scriptures seem to disagree with you here on this point as well…

Quote (ftk @ Sep. 04 2011,22:38)

Ed: Your trickery is noted!

What trickery?

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,11:37)

Was Job (before his troubles) perfect or in error?

Job's error was obviously in blaming God for his troubles; do you disagree?

Also why did God tell Job to make an offering for Job's friends? (Job 42:8)
If this seems to be your contention for Job's troubles in the first place?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

I'm out of time. I have to go, more on this later. Bless you, TK

Hi Tim,

Then you agree with me that Job's error was in blaming God for his troubles; correct?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 7, 2011 at 3:07 am#257812

Participant

Hi Tim,

Sin is indeed an action; you do agree now, right?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 7, 2011 at 9:53 am#257852

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 07 2011,10:05)

Similarly, if I inherit a fortune, I still might be required to sign a document in order to receive it legally.

This is a good thing because not all receive the free gift of salvation and the required response is there to sort out those who receive the free gift and those who reject it.

Otherwise all would be saved if repentance was not required for example.

t8: How is it that you say,….in order to receive the free gift of salvation, a work or response is required from us….! A response yes, here it is, total salvation for free, do you accept it as unto yourself and do you believe this makes you perfect unto God? If you believe, then you are. If you don't believe you are still unclean in mind and do not see the truth. Lies and deceptions have blinded you.

If some gives you a car as a gift you must still maintain it but the car is yours to drive or not drive at your discretion.

And if your friend gave you a new Corvette, of great cost, because he loved you and knew you could not buy one yourself. So, you thought to yourself,…I am so pleased with this gift I will go and help an old lady across the street. That will do it. That will make my friend happy. That will help pay. That's low!

The cleansing is in the mind/heart! No work can cleanse your heart. It can make you feel good but not cleanse your mind from sin.

In Acts when Peter was given the vision several times of a sheet coming down and dumping out all types of animals and the voice from above said, kill and eat! Peter said oh no I can't eat anything unclean. The voice finally said,…..what God hath cleansed, let no man call unclean….! Which was not only a picture of freedom to eat any kind of meat but Peter took it to mean later God had shown him to accept all mankind as one.

Another point made was when you said,….otherwise all would be saved if repentance was not required… Jesus came with the truth for mankind. All mankind. The whole world. WHOSOEVER will believe the truth's of Jesus from God is saved, made whole, cleansed and made perfect unto God. Its for anybody and everybody, all the same, no male or female, bond or free, Jew or Gentile, just WHOSOEVER WILL COME AND PARTAKE, receives.

One would have to repent(turn from his old thinking) to receive the new way of faith. But its for all! God Bless, all IMO, TK

September 7, 2011 at 10:03 am#257853

Proclaimer

Participant

TK, I think we are saying the same thing.

My point was that we are given a free gift with the condition that we repent.
So it requires a certain response from us.
We can call that response a work or not.
It doesn't matter because the response/work is not what perfects us anyway, it is only the condition for acceptance of the gift.

So we both agree that it is all God and God expects us to at least repent.
If he didn't, then all could be saved, even those who do not repent.

There is a gospel out there that proclaims that we only have to mentally believe to be saved. Repentance is not required.

September 7, 2011 at 10:15 am#257856