What Is Meant by Born Again?

Participant

Hi TKS,
The spirit of a man returns to God at death.

Ecc12
” 6Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed;

7then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it”

The soul as shown by Christ under the OT.
Lk 16
” 19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”

November 4, 2006 at 4:22 am#31682

Participant

Quote

Matthew 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

I believe here Christ is using a different meaning of “alive” in the same way as he spoke of Abraham being alive, not physically but in soul and inheritance.

I believe that some there transferred their consciousness into their spirit body and passed straight into Heaven without seeing death.

Science has already shown that consciousness can perceive the world from outside our bodies through stimulating Angular Gyrus part of the brain.
http://www.innerworlds.50megs.com/obe.htm OR
http://intl-brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/127/2/243
Although, being scientists and all, I am sure they don't realize what it is they are touching on,yet.

November 4, 2006 at 4:33 am#31683

Participant

Quote

The spirit of a man returns to God at death.

Ecc12
” 6Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed;

7then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it”

Yes of course it does and our conciousness can be born again into that spirit. If we are born again before the death of the flesh we will not see death but rather go straight before the maker in our spirit form.

November 4, 2006 at 5:02 am#31684

Participant

Hi TJS,
You say
“I believe that some there transferred their consciousness into their spirit body and passed straight into Heaven without seeing death.”
Hmm.
Science fiction?

November 4, 2006 at 6:45 am#31694

david

Participant

Nick, I'm still looking for the born again experience you said you put down. Any ideas?

November 4, 2006 at 2:10 pm#31711

Participant

Quote

Science fiction?

WOW, the whole Bible teaches the theory of worshiping a super natural lord of the spirits.
Science Fiction?
Well that is a stance that most scientists agree with, they say the Bible is Fiction but I didn’t expect that from you.

Numbers 27:16 Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation
Moses believed in a GOD of the spirits and that all flesh has a spirit attached to it.

That brings up a couple of more Biblical questions.
The FIRST being How do you expect we will enter into the spiritual realm since, as the Bible points out, physical bodies return to dust and only the spirit returns to GOD?

Second, We are told that we must stand at a door and knock.
What is in every person which could be considered a doorway between the physical realm and the realm of the super natural?

Well maybe three,
What is meant by blasphemy or speaking against a Holy Ghost?

Matt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

November 4, 2006 at 10:14 pm#31738

Participant

Hi tjs,
You say
“The FIRST being How do you expect we will enter into the spiritual realm since, as the Bible points out, physical bodies return to dust and only the spirit returns to GOD?”

The just are raised in the first resurrection, or raptured, into an imperishable spiritual or heavenly body.

1Cor 15
” 42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”

1Thess 4
” 13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”

November 4, 2006 at 10:20 pm#31740

Participant

Hi tjs,
You ask
“What is in every person which could be considered a doorway between the physical realm and the realm of the super natural?”

” It” is not within us until reborn into us.

Jn 10
” 1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture”

Jesus is the door.
We must be reborn from above of his Spirit.

Gal 4
“19My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, “

2Peter 1
” 19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: “

Rev 22
” 16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”

November 4, 2006 at 10:27 pm#31742

Participant

Hi tjs,
You ask
“What is meant by blasphemy or speaking against a Holy Ghost?”

God continues His work through that Spirit in the sons of God.

But God's servants have always been rather more hated than loved and the antichrist spirit continues to oppose that work even now.

Scripture says to blaspheme the Spirit is more serious than blasphemy against the Son of God.

That is because the Spirit is OF GOD, never separate from God just as a finger is not separate from a person.

To lie to the Spirit is to lie to God the Father and the consequences have been shown to be serious in Acts 5.

The Spirit is as “the finger of God”[Lk 11.20], and, of course, God is greater than His Son.

Jesus said so.

November 5, 2006 at 1:20 am#31749

Participant

Quote

” It” is not within us until reborn into us.

if it is not within us then how would we give up the ghost at death or how would the spirit return to GOD when the body turns to dust?

Are you even paying attention to what you are writing down here?

November 6, 2006 at 3:27 pm#31780

the four horseman

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 03 2006,20:59)

Quote (TJStarfire @ Nov. 03 2006,20:55)

OR unless we can transfer into our spirit body (be born again)

Tell me this then how is it that some will not see death?

Hi TJS,
We can do nothing. The changing is done by the Spirit of God abiding in the living and those sleeping in Christ. Those who are alive in Christ when Christ returns will NEVER see death.

Sorry Nick, but I have to disagree with you on this and agree with TJS Starfire. When Jesus comes on the day to rapture the church, those of us who are alive at the time will be changed. We must pass from mortal to immortal. We must die. Though, it will occur unnoticed, we the flesh will die for mortal must put on immortality.

When Jesus said he who believes in me will never die, he was referring to all who believe in him that even though we die in the flesh, our souls are no longer bound in the place called death or known as the bosom of Abraham. Jesus set them free the day he was resurrected so all who die believing in do not really die, because their souls aren't any longer held under the yoke of death.

November 6, 2006 at 9:46 pm#31797

Participant

Hi tjs,
You say
“if it is not within us then how would we give up the ghost at death or how would the spirit return to GOD when the body turns to dust?”
The sons of God have two spirits. Their own human spirit from the breath of God, which returns to God at death, and the Holy Spirit Which lives in our vessel and abides with us forever and by Which we are raised.

Rom 8
” 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”

December 2, 2006 at 1:54 pm#33527

Participant

We await our birth.

Rom 8:23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING FOR ADOPTION, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Much like a mother with child we wait for the proper time of our birth.

December 2, 2006 at 6:16 pm#33528

Participant

Hi Kenrch,
The verse you quote shows we await our adoption as sons, not our birth. Are children adopted at birth? Sons are led by the Spirit and not all who receive the Spirit allow the Spirit to lead them.

December 2, 2006 at 9:14 pm#33535

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 02 2006,18:16)

Are you complete? Do you have a glorified body? We still await our adoption. Like it or not the answer is no you nor anyone else is complete.

…even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING FOR ADOPTION,

We are waiting for our adoption!

December 2, 2006 at 11:00 pm#33541

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 02 2006,18:16)

Are you complete? Do you have a glorified body? We still await our adoption. Like it or not the answer is no you nor anyone else is complete.

…even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING FOR ADOPTION,…

We haven't been adopted yet only those who hold on to the bitter end will be adopted.

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

Mat 24:13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

2Th 1:5 which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God; to the end that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Tit 3:8 Faithful is the saying, and concerning these things I desire that thou affirm confidently, to the end that they who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men:

Heb 6:11 And we desire that each one of you may show the same diligence unto the fulness of hope even to the end:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations:

We are waiting for our adoption that will be at each ones end.
We each have an end of days and must be faithful to the end.
Only then will we be adopted and not before our end.

December 3, 2006 at 3:36 am#33545

Participant

Hi Kenrch,
God speaks of his sons as having been born of him.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 John 2:29
If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.
1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1 John 4:7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.
1 John 5:4
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
1 John 5:18
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.

But birth is not adoption.

Scripture also speaks of this birth in the present and the future tense, showing there are different aspects to consider.

December 3, 2006 at 5:49 pm#33568

Participant

Yes I believe that we are God's children just as a woman with child is already a mother even though the child is not complete. So it is with us we are God's children but as yet are not complete which is why we are “waiting for our adoption” as children of God, the redemption of our body.

I love you Nick! I really do!

Kenrch

December 3, 2006 at 7:26 pm#33575

Participant

Hi kenrch,
The sons of God are not those who have received the Spirit but those who allow the Spirit to lead them.

Gal 5
” 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. “

Rom 8
“14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”

We must produce profit on the investment or the Spirit given us by God.

Mat 25
” 14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

16Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. “

We must produce good fruit.

Gal 5
” 16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. “

December 4, 2006 at 1:42 am#33579