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Kathi,
I, too, am completely confused as to what you are saying…In any case, God SENDS his Spirits as Angels to do his will (God makes his Angels Spirits)
God makes his Ministers Flames of Fire (These are Humans called Prophets – not to be confused with the Angel AS [unburning] flames in a bush)
Can we move from Jacob to some other contribution.
The point of this thread is to examine what an Angel is so please submit any other points, please!
To all,
There are at least five Hebrew words that have been translated into the word “angel” in either the King James or New American Standard versions of Scriptures. These words are:
Quote
mal'ak1.messenger, representative
a.messenger
b.angel
c.the theophanic angel'elohiym
1.(plural)
a.rulers, judges
b.divine ones
c.angels
d.gods
2.(plural intensive – singular meaning)
a.god, goddess
b.godlike one
c.works or special possessions of God
d.the (true) God
e.God'abbiyr
mighty, valiant
1.of men
2.of angels
3.of animals
4.(metaph)
a.of enemies
b.of princes
c.of sacrificial objects
5.obstinate (fig.)mal'ak (Aramaic)
angel
shin'an
1.repetition
a.repetitions, twice-told repetition, twice ten thousands, thousands of repetitions, twice-told thousands
1.myriads (in effect)Here are the four of the five scriptures mentioned in the initial thread. Of the three speaking that are translated angels two appear to be translated messenger in Young’s Litteral Translation and one Godhead. The Old Testament one translated “messenger” uses the Hebrew word of “mal'ak” andI have not yet looked up the Greek word translated “messenger” in the New Testament. The Old Testament word translated “Godhead” is “'elohiym”. “'elohiym” is also translated “gods” or “God” at times.
Quote Psalm 104:4 (Young's Literal Translation) 4Making His messengers — the winds, His ministers — the flaming fire.
Psalm 8:4-6 (Young's Literal Translation)
4What [is] man that Thou rememberest him? The son of man that Thou inspectest him?
5And causest him to lack a little of Godhead, And with honour and majesty compassest him.
6Thou dost cause him to rule Over the works of Thy hands, All Thou hast placed under his feet.Hebrews 2:5 (Young's Literal Translation)
5For not to messengers did He subject the coming world, concerning which we speak,
Genesis 1:26-27 (Young's Literal Translation)
26And God saith, `Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the heavens, and over cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that is creeping on the earth.'
27And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them.For context for Genesis 1:26-27 I offer this scripture and remember God is spirit and therefore his image is spirit just as he is worshiped in spirit.
Quote Ecclesiastes 7:29 (Young's Literal Translation) 29See, this alone I have found, that God made man upright, and they — they have sought out many devices.
If anyone know which scripture Istari is citing when he writes 'For though they are of greater power [than Mankind]..' please let me know. Thank you!
Istari: An interesting point to the original post is in Psalms where the scripture says…man was made a little lower than the “angels”! If you look up the hebrew word translated “angel” in only that one instance, is the word “elohiym” or God! Man was made a little lower than God! (strongs exhaustive concordance)
If we exercise our spirit understanding we might find that angels are the messengers/words of God sent out from God to perform that which they are sent forth to accomplish. God is spirit and when thought, contemplation, intention, and expectation are formed in mind to do a work, they (word/spirit/angels/messengers) will be released forth to do the work of Gods desire. I believe there are higher and lower levels of angels or thought groupings. Princepalities, powers, then rulers of the darkness, wicked spirits in heavenly places etc.
Man creates angels just like his father. Every word spoken out of the mouth of every man on earth is in the ether looking for and finding like energy to attach to and a body to express from. In the case of wicked spirits they go to and fro looking for whom they may destroy.
Angels to me are spirit messenger sent forth to express the energy that they were created from. Some are love creations and some are evil/destructive creations. Our work on earth is to create love angels in every case. Even love (your enemies) destructive energies back to the love of God.
The earth belongs to mankind. It is our duty and goal to transform evil back to love. Love and you will be loved. Hold nothing in heart against another. That blocks the love. Forgive and be forgiven. Judge not, lest ye be judged. Give (love) and it will be given to you. Believing you are in sin alters or completely blocks the flow of love. Love can only taverse a clean and pure vessel.
If we fill the earths airways with love angels and transform evil back to the original good it is/was, then we will live in the very love we have created on this planet. All forms of praying for others is sending forth love intentions or love angels/messengers.
Words/angels/messengers of love will not return void of the work we intend them to do. IMO, TK
Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,22:03) Can we move from Jacob to some other contribution. The point of this thread is to examine what an Angel is so please submit any other points, please!
Jay, you missed my point.Acts 6;
“And as Stephen stood up to answer the high-priest all fixed their eyes upon him; and they saw that his face was shining, as though it was the face of an angel.
As they heard these things, they became so angry against Stephen that they gnashed on him with their teeth, like wild beasts. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up toward heaven with his shining face; and he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on God’s right hand, and he said:
“I see the heavens opened and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God!”
———————————
So peoples faces can shine like an Angels. And then theres the Transfiguration of Jesus, and Moses, in the Old Testement, he shone too.
Stars….what do these have to do with Angels? (Theres a reason why Im asking.)
Kerwin,
2 Peter 2:11, 'Whereas Angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation …'Hi Kar,
I have written before saying that angels appearing temporarily have a shimmer about them.
Stevens face shining like 'an angel' is only a phrase to describe how his face appeared. It has nothing to do with him being an Angel. If I said your smile was like sunshine to me would you conclude that you were a sun?
At the very least it expresses Steven acquiring a 'Spiritual Body' (A pure unsullied body)Also, I'm not sure what post i missed from you but I was trying to move the conversation on from Kathi and Terra who seemed to have gone off topic a little.
Hi Jay. It was on page one of this thread.
The only reason I put it was because of this:
With Moses;
Exodus 34;29
It happened, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mountain, that Moses didn't know that the skin of his face shone by reason of his speaking with him. When Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come near him. Moses called to them, and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned to him; and Moses spoke to them. Afterward all the children of Israel came near, and he gave them all of the commandments that Yahweh had spoken with him on Mount Sinai. When Moses was done speaking with them, he put a veil on his face. But when Moses went in before Yahweh to speak with him, he took the veil off, until he came out; and he came out, and spoke to the children of Israel that which he was commanded. The children of Israel saw Moses' face, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the veil on his face again, until he went in to speak with him.And with Stephen;
Acts 6;
“And as Stephen stood up to answer the high-priest all fixed their eyes upon him; and they saw that his face was shining, as though it was the face of an angel.
As they heard these things, they became so angry against Stephen that they gnashed on him with their teeth, like wild beasts. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up toward heaven with his shining face;And how it says Men will be like the Angels in Heaven.
But OK, I get you.
Hi Kar,
The point of the man becoming like the Angels in heaven is simp to say that there is no intersexual relationship between Angels.The woman had several husbands so the question was 'Who single husband would she be?'
Jesus replied, 'It won't matter because there will be no husband and wife in the new world unlike what man is instructed to do here on earth – all will be like the Angels who neither marry (Male) nor are given in marriage (Female) – Angels are therefore Asexual.So your mistake has in fact revealed another point concerning Angels although it could have been shown from as so from another viewpoint.
Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,17:27) Kerwin,
2 Peter 2:11, 'Whereas Angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation …'
Thank you!Quote (Istari @ April 23 2011,02:33) Hi Kar,
The point of the man becoming like the Angels in heaven is simp to say that there is no intersexual relationship between Angels.The woman had several husbands so the question was 'Who single husband would she be?'
Jesus replied, 'It won't matter because there will be no husband and wife in the new world unlike what man is instructed to do here on earth – all will be like the Angels who neither marry (Male) nor are given in marriage (Female) – Angels are therefore Asexual.So your mistake has in fact revealed another point concerning Angels although it could have been shown from as so from another viewpoint.
This was taken from a Seventh Day Adventist site, and is their teachings,“Neither Marry nor Are Given in Marriage”
Jesus said, “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven” (Matt 22:30). Many believe that since there is neither marriage nor given in marriage in heaven, there will not be any husband and wife relationship in heaven. Probably, we have misunderstood this biblical text.
Initially, the disciples always misunderstand the word of Christ. Take for instance when Jesus said to the disciples, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.” The disciples misunderstood it and as it is because they have taken no bread (Matt 16:6-7). In another instance, Jesus told Peter, “If I will that he (John) remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.” The disciples misunderstood that John would not die before Christ returns (John 21:22-23).
Other examples come to mind about how the masses misunderstood Jesus. When Jesus said, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews thought Christ was talking about the temple building; actually, he was speaking of the temple of his body (John 2:19-21). During Pilate's judgment, Christ acknowledged that He was the Christ, the Son of God, but they said that He had spoken blasphemy (Matt 26:63-65). On the cross, Jesus cried for God, but they thought that He was calling for Elijah.
Throughout all the ages people by their sight had misunderstood that the earth is flat and the Sun moves around the Earth. Actually God created the Earth as a round ball and it moves around the Sun. Likewise Matthew 22:30 have been widely misunderstood. The Sadducees do not believe in resurrection, and they made a story to test Jesus, saying, “Whose wife among the seven will she be? For they all had her.” Matthew recorded that Jesus had answered, “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven” (Matt 22:30).
[Matthew Has Missed Some Words
Please pay attention on this text (Matt 22:30). It shows that Matthew recorded Jesus’ words in simple terms and missed some important words. If we do not study with other relative texts, it is very easily to misunderstand the meaning of the Lord. To such a big and important topic whether there is marriage in heaven, if Christians only base their understanding on this simple and short text and jump to the conclusion that there is no marriage in heaven, we need to reexamine it carefully. It is like a thousand pieces of puzzle. If someone simply pick a piece of them and says it looks like something, possibly he or she may misunderstand it. It is necessary to relate other pieces with the whole picture, then he or she can see it clearly. According to Luke who recorded more details, Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die any more, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection” (Luke 20: 34-36).
If we compare Matthew’s and Luke’s record, we can discover Matthew recorded the words of the Lord, “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage,” and “but are like angels of God in heaven,” in between this sentence there are some missing words.[14] Luke has added “nor can they die any more,” though it is just few words, yet it makes a great difference. It helps us to see the new light.
Note that when Luke says, “They are equal to the angels,” he means that humans will not die but will live forever like angles in heaven. Thus, the comparison to angels is for longevity and not for marriage.
Combine Matthew’s and Luke’s Records
When Matthew’s and Luke’s records are combined, a clearer image emerges that make Jesus’ words more clearly, “For in the resurrection, those who are counted worthy to attain that age, they neither marry nor are given in marriage at that world, nor can they die any more, for they are equal to the angels.” Through Matthew’s and Luke’s combination, we can find two answers: first, who neither marry nor are given in marriage? Second, in where they neither marry nor are given in marriage? The answers are: first, Jesus pointed to those who were saved and resurrected from death; second, in that new world they will not marry. But Jesus did not deny there are marital lives in that new world. Mrs. White said, “He (Christ) who gave Eve to Adam as a helpmeet, performed His first miracle as a marriage festival.”[15]
Just as on the sixth day of the creation, God matched Adam and Eve as husband and wife, and then they entered the new world as a loving couple, who never marry nor are given in marriage after that.
God’s match-making is far superior to the earthly marriage. Everyday people marry and are given in marriage, giving birth, divorce, and die because this is a sin-sick fallen world. But the world to come it is wonderful and perfect for each has his or her own spouse. All live in pairs, faithful and loving each other forever and ever. God would have joined them together or God let them select their ideal spouse according to His will in the millennium in Heaven before they enter into the new world. There will be no misunderstanding; sorrow, hatred, quarrel, and neither death nor divorce in heaven. Therefore, in such condition, Jesus simply proclaimed that the saints who have been saved and resurrected from death will “neither marry nor are given in marriage in that world,” because what God has joined together, let not man separate.
Quote (Istari @ April 22 2011,03:03) Kathi,
I, too, am completely confused as to what you are saying…In any case, God SENDS his Spirits as Angels to do his will (God makes his Angels Spirits)
God makes his Ministers Flames of Fire (These are Humans called Prophets – not to be confused with the Angel AS [unburning] flames in a bush)
Can we move from Jacob to some other contribution.
The point of this thread is to examine what an Angel is so please submit any other points, please!
Istari,
Please take the time to read this commentary on Hosea 12. I will paste a small section here.http://gill.biblecommenter.com/hosea/12.htm
…Hosea 12:3
3He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:He took his brother by the heel in the womb,…. That is, Jacob took his brother Esau by the heel, as he came forth from his mother's womb; the history of it is in Genesis 25:25. It is here observed, upon mentioning the name of Jacob in Hosea 12:2, meaning the posterity, of the patriarch; but here he himself is intended, and occasionally taken notice of, to show how very different his posterity were from him, and how sadly degenerated; as well as to upbraid them with ingratitude, whose ancestors, and they also, had received such and so many favours from the Lord; Jacob the patriarch was a hero from the womb, but they transgressors from it; this action of his observed was a presage and pledge of his having the superiority of his brother, and of his getting the birthright and blessing from him. So the Targum,
“prophet, say unto them, was it not said of Jacob, before he was born, that he would be greater than his brother?''
see Romans 9:11. In this action there was something divine, miraculous, and preternatural; it was not the effort of nature merely, but contrary to it, or at least above it; and not done by chance, but ordered by the providence of God, as a prediction and testification of his future greatness, and even of his posterity's, in times yet to come, as Kimchi observes, who refers to Obadiah 1:18;
and by his strength he had power with God; the Targum is, with the angel, as in Hosea 12:4; he is called a man in the history of this event in Genesis 32:24; not that he was a mere man, since he is here expressly called God, and afterwards the Lord God of hosts; and there it is evident, from the context, he was a divine Person, and no other than the Son of God; who, though not as yet incarnate, appeared in a human form, as a presage of his future incarnation; though this was not a mere apparition, spectre, or phantasm, as Josephus (t) calls it; for it was not in a dream, or in a visionary way, that this wrestling and striving was between this divine Person in this form and Jacob, but in reality; it was a real substance which the Son of God formed, animated, actuated, and assumed, for that time and purpose, and then laid it aside; which touched Jacob, and he touched that, laid hold on it, and held it fast, and strove with it, and had power over it, and over God in it; even over him that is God over all, the true God and eternal life, the Lord Jesus Christ; not a created God, or God by office, but by nature; as the perfections that are in him, and the works and worship ascribed to him, declare: now Jacob had power over him “by his strength”; not by his natural strength; either of his body, which could not have been equal to the strength of this human body assumed for the time, as it was used and managed by a divine Person, unless he had been extraordinarily assisted and strengthened; or of his mind and soul, not by any spiritual strength he had of himself; but by what he had from this divine Person, with whom he wrestled; who put strength into him, and supported and increased the power and strength of faith in prayer; so that he prevailed over him, and got the blessing, for which reason his name was called Israel, Genesis 32:28.
This commentary helps explain what I am saying but says it much better.
KathiKathi,
Quote Istari;Quote Can we move from Jacob to some other contribution. The point of this thread is to examine what an Angel is so please submit any other points, please!
To all,
Only one word, “aggelos”, is translated to angels from the common Greek language. That word is also the root of archangel and evangelist.
Quote aggelos 1.a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God
Quote Hebrews 2(Young’s Literal Translation] 5For not to messengers did He subject the coming world, concerning which we speak, 6and one in a certain place did testify fully, saying, `What is man, that Thou art mindful of him, or a son of man, that Thou dost look after him?
7Thou didst make him some little less than messengers, with glory and honour Thou didst crown him, and didst set him over the works of Thy hands,….
16for, doubtless, of messengers it doth not lay hold, but of seed of Abraham it layeth hold,
17wherefore it did behove him in all things to be made like to the brethren, that he might become a kind and stedfast chief-priest in the things with God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people,Hebrews 1(Young’s Literal Translation]
3who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might — through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,
4having become so much better than the messengers, as he did inherit a more excellent name than they.…
6and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him — all messengers of God;'
…
13And unto which of the messengers said He ever, `Sit at My right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?'
14are they not all spirits of service — for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation?2 Peter 2(Young’s Literal Translation]
11whereas messengers, in strength and power being greater, do not bear against them before the Lord an evil speaking judgment;
The world to come is not subject to angels. Mankind was created a little lower than the angels. Jesus was not made like an angel but was instead made like the seed of Abraham. Jesus became superior to the angels with a inheriting a name superior to theirs that God stated let the angels bow before him when he came into the world. Angels have more strength and authority than mankind.
Istari,
Further to what I posted,
For you to believe that Jesus was an Angel, you are not alone. Adventists believe it, as do the JWs. So, really, its no big thing. Im sure you wont be judged on whether you are right or wrong on this. Life goes much beyond things like that. A person could acquire all of the text of scripture but still know nothing of the heart. Its the heart which tells me, that love will go on in the next life. God gave us a heart to feel, and God is love, so, why would that die? There are many types of love. There is love, such as to a partner, and there is love, such as to a friend. love to family, as to children. So, getting back to this – “Will be like the Angels in Heaven” business. There was much that they never quite understood which Jesus said. He spoke many things, with any possible meaning, depending on the reader, or hearer. People can really take what they want from writing in the text. My heart and prayer tells me, that if a man loves a woman, and they were put together by God, then, they will be together, and they will love again. Only, there will be no sin, no hurt, nothing to come in the way, perfection, as God intended.
Karmarie,
Quote Matthew 22(Young’s Literal Translation) 23In that day there came near to him Sadducees, who are saying there is not a rising again, and they questioned him, saying,
24`Teacher, Moses said, If any one may die not having children, his brother shall marry his wife, and shall raise up seed to his brother.
25`And there were with us seven brothers, and the first having married did die, and not having seed, he left his wife to his brother;
26in like manner also the second, and the third, unto the seventh,
27and last of all died also the woman;
28therefore in the rising again, of which of the seven shall she be wife — for all had her?'
29And Jesus answering said to them, `Ye go astray, not knowing the Writings, nor the power of God;
30for in the rising again they do not marry, nor are they given in marriage, but are as messengers of God in heaven.
31`And concerning the rising again of the dead, did ye not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying,
32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not a God of dead men, but of living.'
33And having heard, the multitudes were astonished at his teaching;Mark 12(Young’s Literal Translation)
18And the Sadducees come unto him, who say there is not a rising again, and they questioned him, saying,
19`Teacher, Moses wrote to us, that if any one's brother may die, and may leave a wife, and may leave no children, that his brother may take his wife, and raise up seed to his brother.
20`There were then seven brothers, and the first took a wife, and dying, he left no seed;
21and the second took her, and died, neither left he seed, and the third in like manner,
22and the seven took her, and left no seed, last of all died also the woman;
23in the rising again, then, whenever they may rise, of which of them shall she be wife — for the seven had her as wife?'
24And Jesus answering said to them, `Do ye not because of this go astray, not knowing the Writings, nor the power of God?
25for when they may rise out of the dead, they neither marry nor are they given in marriage, but are as messengers who are in the heavens.
26`And concerning the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the Book of Moses (at The Bush), how God spake to him, saying, I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob;
27he is not the God of dead men, but a God of living men; ye then go greatly astray.'I was raised a Seventh Day Adventist but they are in error that interpretation for the very simple reason the question the Sadducees asked was about how the resurrection affected marriage when a women has been legally married to several men over her lifetime.
There is only one God and he means only one thing. You either believe what he states or not. You will be held accountable. I believe there are some gray areas of scriptures but they do not in any way harm the one true gospel of the Anointed.
Kerwin,
It's good to see you are using the Youngs Literal translation.
I see where you are coming from, with what those verses say.
I just think theres more to this than that.
I'll be looking more into them, when I have some time.Kerwin, there are alot of misuse of scriptures that would take our eyes off of Christ, causing us to move away from our resting place in Him. Just as there are people who will do likewise. Your right.
Kathi,
In your contribution I cannot understand what it is you say is easier to understand – is it related youth thread topic.Ok, just give me a short summary of what it is it said to you concerning the nature and personage of Angels.
Kar, it is right that you say there are greater things to life than struggling over interpretation, there is still room for those who can, to examine the more refined elements that lead to higher levels of truth and righteousness:
A meal is cooked in a restaurant on a daily basis. It is of an acceptable edible status for the majority.
However, among the diners are people with special dietary requirements, culinary experts, vegetarians, etc.How is the one meal received by the diners?
It is easy to see that some will be dissatisfied, some will think nothing and just accept it, others will reject it, and some will call for refinement by means of Condiments, recooking as rare, medium or well done…
The refinement is what this forum is mostly concerning.
And so, this thread is about the refinement of what Angels are by nature and personage: what are they, who are they, what are they like?
Scriptures says much about them and requires us to see them as God sees them: Spirits of great power and ability, sent by God from their heavenly abode to do the will of God (Just as a King sends his servants to carry out his orders, and a War leader sends his soldiers to do his commands) all in a defined rank order.
There are rank order of Angels and only a tiny few ever come into the physical visible world – to earth to interact with man directly.Man has sullied the image of Angels by painting them in sentimental ways depriving them of their authority and power such that many adopt the term, 'Angel' as one who does 'Nice things'.
Angels have the power to walk through volcanoes, to stir up tornadoes, to move mountains, create floods, to go anywhere and do any deed, great or small, that God commissions them with – but they MUST FULFILL that commission else cannot return to their heavenly abode – and that would spell 'doom' to that Angel, for God did not send them to do that which was not do-able (For he does not give aid to Angels). However, that is not to say that mankind cannot be RESISTANT to the commission of the Angel…look at Lot, Saul, Jonah, the father of John the Baptist, the Prince of Persia… All these and more resisted for a time, the will of God (But who can prevail against God and win?)
Man is not to be called 'Angel' for to do so is to bring down the Image of God that he is made in.
God, indeed, does SENT man to do his will, but the name to use is 'Prophet' or 'Servant' or 'Minister' – and we need to be careful that we don't justify our common usage of words/names/terms like 'Evangelist' or 'Angelic' etc, into believing that it is ok to call mankind 'Angel' (Though, so ensconced in it are some of sentimental nature that any such request will only fall on deaf ears! This is similar to attempting to stop people calling their pets, 'My Babies'… I've seen adheres that depict relationships between women and cats as 'mother and child' the mind boggles as to whom the father is? But I digress!)
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