What is an Angel

[Istari]

There has been much debate over the word or term 'Angel' in this forum.

There has been much misconception concerning the nature of 'Angels' in this forum.

There has been much misunderstanding concerning the personage of 'Angels' in this forum.

This thread is aimed at clearing up those debates, misconceptions and misunderstandings concerning the word and term, nature and being of 'Angels' from the viewpoint of Scriptures.

Ok, the opening shots are these:

'God makes his Angels Spirits'

And

'Man was created a little lower than the Angels'

And

'For though they are of greater power [than Mankind]..'

And

'Man was made in the image of God'

And

'For God did not subject the world to come to Angels'

From these few verse what ONE MASSIVE POINT can be gleaned:

Is it that no one of MANKIND SHOULD EVER BE CALLED 'Angel' (from a Scriptural point of view) for to do so is would be to belittle the image of God.

Though Angels are more powerful than mankind, they are completely created to act as Servants to God Almighty and whoever he further designates. They must never be bowed down to in any way (Note that mankind can bow down to mankind in a manner called Obesience) – and, indeed, they themselves know not to allow anyone to bow down to them as demonstrated on several occasions.

Now, because of language, linguistics, inheritance of words, sentimental feelings, etc., the Word for 'Angel' from the Greek, has been Adopted, Begotten, into English language such that we call someone who does a merciful deed an Angel… Note that we also use the term 'Good Samaritan' ignoring the base use of the term 'Samaritan' (Ask or look up who the Samaritans were? But none the less than one was parabalised as doing good – and leads to the topic of 'Can a wayward believer be saved by Works alone'?)

Why should we want to call a human being 'An Angel'? Simple: sloppy use of language intertwined with a desire for a word or term of endearment with disregard to it's original meaning and the implications of further misuse outside of it's scriptural meaning.

So exactly what is, and who is, an Angel?

Scriptures says they are 'Messengers of God', and they are invisible bodiless Spirit creatures, Spirit Creations of God whose abode is the invisible bodiless heavenly realm.

Angels are extremely powerful… But limit their powers in the face of mankind as they have no authority to hurt mankind except in explicit ways and to explicit limits set by God.

Their soul purpose is to serve God and whomever else he designates. Only the ones of the rebellion have ever done anything outside of direct orders of God (And thus they are doomed to destruction for that)

Angels are invisible and bodiless but can appear in the fleshly world in the physical form of man.

When they appear fleetingly they do not acquire full bodies but are arrayed in near shimmering apparel and any time spent with them will soon reveal as 'not normal humans' as they are required to deliver their message, perform their deed and return to the invisible heavenly realm.

But when they are required to remain longer they acquire more 'meatier' flesh bodies that require real food to maintain just as human flesh bodies require.

Because Angels are pure power and energy they can also appear in other forms of energy outflow such as Flames, lightening, Wind… Energy can be turned into many different forms of power (Power is the Capacity to do work)

Angels are Spirits whose abode is in the heavenly realm … There are many types of Angels and not all come down into the Fleshly Physical visible world but serve God in the heavenly realm.

Some Angels/Spirits do things we do not associate with angels by our sentimental language terms, like bring Delusion, Death, destruction, famine, floods… How does one align Angel as doer of good deeds with angel of Doom! Because God and Scriptures never said that Angels were soppy fat creatures that look like naked boisterous urchins with teeny wings, or mournful or prayerful long haired women in flowing gowns. This is an sentimental human conception!!

And what of the new world not being subject to Angels? What does this mean?
The work that Angels do with regard to the physical visible world will be redundant – angels will no longer come into the physical visible world for the world will be perfect and be in subjection to Christ and the other MEN IN SPIRIT – the Begotten Sons of God, Heirs to God, Brothers to Christ who will sit in rulership over the Earth.

God makes his Angels Spirits… I admit to having struggled to understand exactly what this meant but after prayer the solution and meaning came when I wasn't even thinking about it:
God makes those Spirits who are to do his will into Messengers.
There are Spirits that are not made Angels, like the Seven Spirits of God which, Although SENT out in all the earth – are not called Angels, and neither are the four creatures in the midst of and around the throne of God (Note carefully that 'In the midst of' does not mean 'On the throne' – see arguments later and before when Jesus/The Lamb is claimed to be on the throne if God because Scriptures says he was 'In the midst of the throne')

[Lightenup]

Istari,
Good topic. I think when some being is called an angel in scripture, it is often from man's perspective and may simply mean a being not from the physical realm and not necessarily one of many as a kind of being, although I do believe that there is evidence that there are several angels that are a particular kind of common being. There are myriads of them and they were created. I do believe that even Jehovah was thought of as an angel but we know that He was not created.

Kathi

[Lightenup]

I am reposting this from a post I made last night.
found here: https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….y294340

Here is a passage that says that the 'Angel' that wrestled with Jacob was Jehovah and below it is John Gill's comments about it:

Hos 12:2-5
2 The Lord(Jehovah) also has a dispute with Judah, And will punish Jacob according to his ways; He will repay him according to his deeds.
3 In the womb he took his brother by the heel, And in his maturity he contended with God.
4 Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed; He wept and sought His favor. He found Him at Bethel And there He spoke with us,
5 Even the Lord(Jehovah), the God of hosts, The Lord(Jehovah) is His name.
NASU

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Even the Lord God of hosts,…. The God Jacob had power over, the Angel he prevailed with, to whom he made supplication with weeping, and who spake with him and his in Bethel, is he whose name is Jehovah; who is the true and living God, the Lord of hosts and armies both in heaven and in earth; of all the angels in heaven, and the legions of them; and of the church militant, and all the saints, who are the good soldiers of Christ, his spiritual militia; and he is the Captain of the Lord's host, and of their salvation, and to whom all the numerous hosts of creatures, be they what they will, are subject: this is observed, to set off the greatness of the person Jacob wrestled with, and his wondrous grace, in condescending to be overpowered by him:

the Lord is his memorial: or his name, Jehovah, which belongs to this angel, the Son of God, as to his divine Father; and which is expressive of his divine existence, of his eternity and immutability; this is his memorial, or the remembrancer of him; which puts his people in all ages in remembrance of him, what he is, what an infinite, almighty, and all sufficient Being he is; and he is always to be believed in, and trusted to, and to be served, adored, and worshipped. The Targum adds, to every generation and generation

from: http://bible.cc/hosea/12-5.htm

I would say that passage makes it clear that the 'angel' was called Jehovah. Obviously Jacob wrestling with Jehovah was not a vision, Jacob's hip joint was put out of place. Yet no man has seen God but they have seen the Son of God.

Kathi

[terraricca]

Kathi

were in the bible does it say all those things?

Ge 32:22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok.
Ge 32:23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions.
Ge 32:24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.
Ge 32:25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.
Ge 32:26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”
But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
Ge 32:27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”
“Jacob,” he answered.
Ge 32:28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.”
Ge 32:29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
Ge 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
Ge 32:31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip.
Ge 32:32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon.

Hos 12:3 In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel;
as a man he struggled with God.
Hos 12:4 He struggled with the angel and overcame him;
he wept and begged for his favor.
He found him at Bethel
and talked with him there—

please explain your conclusions of those scriptures.

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
Read the context of the passage in Hosea and what John Gill's commentary said about it. I agree with him on this.

Kathi

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 22 2011,15:42)

Pierre, Read the context of the passage in Hosea and what John Gill's commentary said about it.  I agree with him on this. Kathi

kathi

since you agree with him so you are understanding what he says and mean ,

so please answer my question ?

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Quote (terraricca @ April 21 2011,16:38)

Kathi were in the bible does it say all those things? Ge 32:22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. Ge 32:23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. Ge 32:24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. Ge 32:25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Ge 32:26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” Ge 32:27 The man asked him, “What is your name?” “Jacob,” he answered. Ge 32:28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.” Ge 32:29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.” But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there. Ge 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.” Ge 32:31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip. Ge 32:32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon. Hos 12:3 In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel; as a man he struggled with God. Hos 12:4 He struggled with the angel and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor. He found him at Bethel and talked with him there— please explain your conclusions of those scriptures. Pierre

Pierre,
Jehovah the Son wrestled with Jacob and was in the appearance of a 'man' from heaven and so was mentioned to be a 'man' and 'angel' and then we find out that He was God, Jehovah. Since no man has seen God at any time, it was Jehovah as the Son. Abraham spoke with Jehovah as the Son face to face also in Gen 18.

Kathi

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 22 2011,16:31)

Quote (terraricca @ April 21 2011,16:38) Kathi were in the bible does it say all those things? Ge 32:22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. Ge 32:23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. Ge 32:24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. Ge 32:25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Ge 32:26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” Ge 32:27 The man asked him, “What is your name?” “Jacob,” he answered. Ge 32:28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.” Ge 32:29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.” But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there. Ge 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.” Ge 32:31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip. Ge 32:32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon. Hos 12:3 In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel; as a man he struggled with God. Hos 12:4 He struggled with the angel and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor. He found him at Bethel and talked with him there— please explain your conclusions of those scriptures. Pierre Pierre, Jehovah the Son wrestled with Jacob and was in the appearance of a 'man' from heaven and so was mentioned to be a 'man' and 'angel' and then we find out that He was God, Jehovah.  Since no man has seen God at any time, it was Jehovah as the Son.  Abraham spoke with Jehovah as the Son face to face also in Gen 18. Kathi

Kathi

could you show me where in those scriptures it says just that ?

i do not see it

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
Do you see that the 'angel' in this passage is named Jehovah?

Hos 12:2-5
2 The Lord(Jehovah) also has a dispute with Judah, And will punish Jacob according to his ways; He will repay him according to his deeds.
3 In the womb he took his brother by the heel, And in his maturity he contended with God.
4 Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed; He wept and sought His favor. He found Him at Bethel And there He spoke with us,
5 Even the Lord(Jehovah), the God of hosts, The Lord(Jehovah) is His name.
NASU

[karmarie]

Acts 6;

“And as Stephen stood up to answer the high-priest all fixed their eyes upon him; and they saw that his face was shining, as though it was the face of an angel.

As they heard these things, they became so angry against Stephen that they gnashed on him with their teeth, like wild beasts. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up toward heaven with his shining face; and he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on God’s right hand, and he said:

“I see the heavens opened and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God!”

But they cried out with angry voices, and rushed upon him, and dragged him out of the council-room, and outside the wall of the city. And there they threw stones upon him to kill him, while Stephen was kneeling down among the falling stones and praying.

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 22 2011,19:17)

Pierre, Do you see that the 'angel' in this passage is named Jehovah? Hos 12:2-5 2 The Lord(Jehovah) also has a dispute with Judah, And will punish Jacob according to his ways; He will repay him according to his deeds. 3 In the womb he took his brother by the heel, And in his maturity he contended with God. 4 Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed; He wept and sought His favor. He found Him at Bethel And there He spoke with us, 5 Even the Lord(Jehovah), the God of hosts, The Lord(Jehovah) is His name. NASU

Kathi

do you not see that Hos12 ;3 and 4 are talking about Jacob or Israel (the man) and that verse one talks about Judah tribe,and what they are doing and that verse 5 is talking about what God the Lord will do to Judah (tribe)if they do not change there ways.

if you remove verse 3 and 4 from the chapter 12 you will see that there is nothing missing to understand what God is saying .

so the reason why Israel the man is mention is for a different purpose

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
You can't just decide to remove verses. The 'He' that is in v. 4 is identified in v. 5.
Verse 5 is the end of the sentence beginning in v.4.

He (Jacob) wept and sought His (Jehovah's) favor. He (Jacob) found Him(Jehovah) at Bethel And there He(Jehovah) spoke with us,
5 Even the Lord(Jehovah), the God of hosts, The Lord(Jehovah) is His name.

Kathi

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 22 2011,20:03)

Pierre, You can't just decide to remove verses.  The 'He' that is in v. 4 is identified in v. 5. Verse 5 is the end of the sentence beginning in v.4. He (Jacob) wept and sought His (Jehovah's) favor. He (Jacob) found Him(Jehovah) at Bethel And there He(Jehovah) spoke with us, 5 Even the Lord(Jehovah), the God of hosts, The Lord(Jehovah) is His name. Kathi

Kathi

you can not make the scriptures say what you like them to say.

you mixing thing

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 22 2011,20:03)

Pierre, You can't just decide to remove verses.  The 'He' that is in v. 4 is identified in v. 5. Verse 5 is the end of the sentence beginning in v.4. He (Jacob) wept and sought His (Jehovah's) favor. He (Jacob) found Him(Jehovah) at Bethel And there He(Jehovah) spoke with us, 5 Even the Lord(Jehovah), the God of hosts, The Lord(Jehovah) is His name. Kathi

Kathi

show me were in history Jacob /Israel the man was ever rejected punished from God ?

he was a devoted patriarch to his God ,

so you are fallowing men thoughts

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
I think that this verse:

And will punish Jacob according to his ways; He will repay him according to his deeds.

shows that Jehovah is ready to punish and repay, whatever is required. I don't think it is talking about a particular incident that Jehovah punished or repaid Jacob for.

Kathi

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 22 2011,20:18)

Pierre, I think that this verse: And will punish Jacob according to his ways; He will repay him according to his deeds. shows that Jehovah is ready to punish and repay, whatever is required.  I don't think it is talking about a particular incident that Jehovah punished or repaid Jacob for.   Kathi

Kathi

again God is ready to punish the nation of Israel and Judah

but what that as to do with the man Jacob /Israel ?

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
Perhaps you should just go to God with the question and read the scripture as written. To me, it is simply identifying the one who wrestled with Jacob as Jehovah and the rest of the verse in that chapter shows how Jehovah is and has been involved with men.

Kathi

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 22 2011,20:38)

Pierre, Perhaps you should just go to God with the question and read the scripture as written.  To me, it is simply identifying the one who wrestled with Jacob as Jehovah and the rest of the verse in that chapter shows how Jehovah is and has been involved with men. Kathi

kathi

I have gone and he has given me the answer and it is not your answer,

you are in error ,and should inquire more in Gods word and not fallow men dilution,

Jacob encountered a man and take a grip of him and did not let go till break time,

would you now say that the almighty God is a man ?
this is not what scriptures say.

because that s exactly what you are telling me ,at the least this is your believe as you say.

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
Then why are you asking me to explain to you?

I am not saying that God is a man or that God is an angel. I am saying that the one that wrestled with Jacob was called Jehovah. Jehovah may have appeared as a man from heaven but He is not a man, of course, neither is He an angel being.

Maybe you should ask God to explain what I am telling you because you are having such a hard time getting it.

Kathi

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 22 2011,22:21)

Pierre, Then why are you asking me to explain to you? I am not saying that God is a man or that God is an angel.  I am saying that the one that wrestled with Jacob was called Jehovah.  Jehovah may have appeared as a man from heaven but He is not a man, of course, neither is He an angel being. Maybe you should ask God to explain what I am telling you because you are having such a hard time getting it. Kathi

Kathi

you are not truthful;

Quote

Quote (Lightenup @ April 22 2011,19:17) Pierre, Do you see that the 'angel' in this passage is named Jehovah? Hos 12:2-5 2 The Lord(Jehovah) also has a dispute with Judah, And will punish Jacob according to his ways; He will repay him according to his deeds. 3 In the womb he took his brother by the heel, And in his maturity he contended with God. 4 Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed; He wept and sought His favor. He found Him at Bethel And there He spoke with us, 5 Even the Lord(Jehovah), the God of hosts, The Lord(Jehovah) is His name. NASU

look what you are writing you are bolding your interpretation,

if you do not say that God the LORD is not a man what are you saying ?

Pierre

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