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Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 23 2009,14:26) Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 24 2009,08:13) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 23 2009,11:34) Seeking said: Quote You have stated the very reason the Father could not/would not comply. But Christ's request was not sinful. That's what I am trying to show. If it was sinful, then Christ could not have even asked because He had no sin.
Do you believe that Christ's prayer was sinful? A simple “yes” or “no” would help to avoid confusion.
thinker
Thinker,You remind me of the note a preacher found on his pulpit every Sunday morning. It was from his wife and read “KISS.”
The congregation thought it a sweet gesture. One day they found out what it was to remind him of -Keep It Short Stupid!
I'll keep it short –NO.
Seems there is a pathway to sin and having a logical desire to escape what was before Him would not be sin.
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
Jas 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.Oops! I was going to keep it short.
Blessings to you,
Seeking
Seeking,
I stated from the beginning that Christ did not have the ability to sin. Then Gene said that there were “two wills”, the will of God and the will of Jesus which was sinful. Gene inferred that Chris's desire to be delivered from the cup was sinful. I replied to Gene saying that the two wills did not imply that the one was good and that the other was bad. Then I had to show that His desire to escape the hour could not have been sinful seeing that He had the assurance that His Father would have delivered Him.If there was a shorter path I would have taken it.
thinker
Thinker,Brother, I meant to be light with my “KISS” story and apply it to myself not you.
I am digesting this one –
Quote I stated from the beginning that Christ did not have the ability to sin. I am working it through as to how He could be tempted
like we are and empathize with us without capacity to fail.For now I am resting on the passage I mentioned earlier from James 1. Jam.1:14 seems to tie being tempted with capacity and desire though. “Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
If that applied to Jesus as a man it would have been enticement based on His desire or lust. Thayer defines lust this way –
“Thayer Definition:
1) desire, craving, longing, desire for what is forbidden, lust”So what's your take? He had all the capacity up to and just short of sinning? Can you help me out here, please.
Seeking
Seeking wrote:
Quote I am working it through as to how He could be tempted
like we are and empathize with us without capacity to fail.For now I am resting on the passage I mentioned earlier from James 1. Jam.1:14 seems to tie being tempted with capacity and desire though. “Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
James said also that when desire has conceived then sin will necessarily result,
Quote But each man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin (James 1:14) The desire to sin NECESSARILY gives birth to sin. Jesus never sinned. Therefore, He never knew the desire to sin. But He was really tempted because He was made in the “likeness of sinful flesh.” He was without food for forty days when He was tempted. HE WAS HUNGRY. So the temptation to turn the stones into bread was real.
But He denied His LEGITIMATE desire to eat so that you and I would not be damned! When was the last time you denied yourself in such a noble manner?
thinker
Hi TT,
” drawn away by” surely means SUBMISSION or AGREEMENT TO follow desires-an act of will.It does not say desires always are followed.
Jesus overcame.
Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.Rom8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Nick thinks:
Quote It does not say desires always are followed [by sin] . Oh yes it does Nick. It says that when desire conceives it gives birth to sin. Jesus never sinned. Therefore, He never had the desire to sin. He said,
Quote “I always do those things that please My Father.” thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 24 2009,11:50) Seeking wrote: Quote I am working it through as to how He could be tempted
like we are and empathize with us without capacity to fail.For now I am resting on the passage I mentioned earlier from James 1. Jam.1:14 seems to tie being tempted with capacity and desire though. “Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
James said also that when desire has conceived then sin will necessarily result,
Quote But each man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin (James 1:14) The desire to sin NECESSARILY gives birth to sin. Jesus never sinned. Therefore, He never knew the desire to sin. But He was really tempted because He was made in the “likeness of sinful flesh.” He was without food for forty days when He was tempted. HE WAS HUNGRY. So the temptation to turn the stones into bread was real.
But He denied His LEGITIMATE desire to eat so that you and I would not be damned! When was the last time you denied yourself in such a noble manner?
thinker
Hi TTI agree with you.
Many try to say that Jesus because he was tempted in all points as we are means that he had evil in himself like we have an old nature that is bent to sin
They want to say that he was tempted to commit adultery or rape or incest or to steal or murder, because if “tempted in all points” like we are means evil lust or desire then Jesus would have had to have every temptation that all men throughout all times had in order to overcome in all points and to be the perfect sacrifice for them.
The temptations of Christ were natural and legitimate as far as weakness, hunger, etc which can be sin if we disobey God in those things.
Jesus said if a man looks on a woman and lust after her he has committed adultry.
So if Jesus was tempted in this way then he would have committed adultry. Therefore being tempted in all points as we are is not including temptation to the evil lust in mens hearts.
Satan came to Jesus and found “Nothing in him”.
WJ
WorshippingJesus,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
Quote They want to say that he was tempted to commit adultery or rape or incest or to steal or murder, because if “tempted in all points” like we are means evil lust or desire then Jesus would have had to have every temptation that all men throughout all times had in order to overcome in all points and to be the perfect sacrifice for them. The Bible condenses temptation and sin into three areas as I understand it –
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world–the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions–is not from the Father but is from the world.
Jesus was tempted in three areas –
Mat 4:3 And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.”
Lust of the fleshMat 4:6 and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, “'He will command his angels concerning you,' and “'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'”
Pride of lifeMat 4:8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
Mat 4:9 And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.”
Lust of the eyesTherefore, this statement seems invalid –
Quote Therefore being tempted in all points as we are is not including temptation to the evil lust in mens hearts. At this point, my understanding is that to be tempted is not sin. It is when we take action that sin manifests –
Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
Jas 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.This statement DOES NOT agree with scripture! ” “The desire to sin NECESSARILY gives birth to sin.”
No desire – no temptation! Temptation without conception – no sin. Isn't that our daily experience as we resist the devil? It is mine.
I'm still working on this one. Let's continue the dialogue.
Blessings,
Seeking
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 23 2009,18:19)
I've got to go with Nick on this one –Nick thinks: It does not say desires always are followed [by sin]
Thinker says –Oh yes it does Nick. But it does NOT!
It says, when desire conceives it gives birth to sin.
Just as Thinker posted.We know that every encounter (intercourse if you will allow me) with sin DOES NOT LEAD TO CONCEPTION.
Seeking
WJ, Thinker,
What is your understanding here – Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God, for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
My dilemna – if Jesus is God he cannot be tempted but we apparently agree that he was tempted. Is this a part of “emptying himself?”
Seeking
WorshippingJesus wrote:
Quote So if Jesus was tempted in this way then he would have committed adultry. Therefore being tempted in all points as we are is not including temptation to the evil lust in mens hearts. Satan came to Jesus and found “Nothing in him”.
Exactly! Jesus' sinless life proves that He had “nothing in Him.”
thinker
Hi tt,
The Son of God was found clean at the Jordan and because of this then filled with the Spirit.
Thence sin is not accounted to him anyway.Seeking said:
Quote This statement DOES NOT agree with scripture! ” “The desire to sin NECESSARILY gives birth to sin.” I am just telling you what James said. He said that when desire has conceived it gives birth to sin. The mood is indicative. If he meant that desire might give birth to sin he would have used the subjunctive mood.
Seeking wrote:
Quote We know that every encounter (intercourse if you will allow me) with sin DOES NOT LEAD TO CONCEPTION. No one has said that every encounter leads to conception. But every sinful desire that is conceived leads to sin.
Seeking said:
Quote My dilemna – if Jesus is God he cannot be tempted but we apparently agree that he was tempted. Is this a part of “emptying himself?” God could be tempted from without but not from within. Jesus was tempted from without but not from within. So there is no discrepancy because James was talking about the temptation that comes from within.
The Bible says that God could be tempted (Matt. 4:7; Deut. 6:16; Heb. 2:8-9).
Seeking said:
Quote Mat 4:3 And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.”
Lust of the fleshYou say tha hunger is a “lust of the flesh”? Come on! This idea contains the seeds of Gnosticism. Hunger is a legitimate desire. Jesus when tempted denied His legitimate desire to eat. This is what makes Jesus so much more noble than us. He denied Himself that which was in itself legitimate.
Seeking said:
Quote No desire – no temptation! Temptation without conception – no sin. Isn't that our daily experience as we resist the devil? It is mine. The devil tempted only Adam and Jesus. There is no record that the devil tempted anyone else and the Bible does not teach that he tempts anyone else. Besides, the devil was cast into the lake of fire in AD70.
All temptation comes from within
thinker
thethinker,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
Thinker,I am trying to put it together here. You said rather emphatically –“The desire to sin NECESSARILY gives birth to sin.”
Then you presented – I am just telling you what James said. He said that when desire has conceived it gives birth to sin.The mood is indicative. If he meant that desire might give birth to sin he would have used the subjunctive mood. (A moot point.)
You move on to – “No one has said that every encounter leads to conception. But every sinful desire that is conceived leads to sin.”
It seems to me that is exactly what you have inferred and
offered rebuttal when I and Nick challenged the assumption.
Perhaps I missed something.Nick asked – “Hi tt,Does every desire conceive?”
You cited Nick in the following – “Nick thinks: Quote
It does not say desires always are followed [by sin] .”and responded – “Oh yes it does Nick.”
That and this statement don't seem to mesh – ]”No one has said that every encounter leads to conception.
You interject – But every sinful desire that is conceived leads to sin.” Which is exactly the point I and Nick have
offered.You observed – “You say that hunger is a “lust of the flesh”? Come on! This idea contains the seeds of Gnosticism”
All sin is the abuse of natural desire! Desire for sex is a ligitimate, God given, desire. Fornication and adultery are its abuse. Desire for the security money can provide is natural.
Stealing, usury to obtain it is sin. Hunger is a natural desire.
Stealing to get food and gluttony are sin. Satan tempted Jesus to fulfill his hunger desire by performing the miraculous and not by working for the food etc. HOW DESIRES THAT ARE NATURAL ARE MET IS WHAT CAN CONSTITUTE SIN.Scripture says – Jas 1:13 … God cannot be tempted with evil
You say –God could be tempted from without but not from within Talk about Gnosticism!
Well, bear with me. I'm trying to see it. I do believe what you are saying is worthy of consideration.
Seeking
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 24 2009,03:08) The devil tempted only Adam and Jesus. There is no record that the devil tempted anyone else and the Bible does not teach that he tempts anyone else. Besides, the devil was cast into the lake of fire in AD70. All temptation comes from within
Paul wrote that there was a “tempter” that 'Tempts” as I understand him. The temptor is Satan who tempts us to fulfill desires through sinful means, it seems.1Th 3:5 For this reason, when I could bear it no longer, I sent to learn about your faith, for fear that somehow the tempter had tempted you and our labor would be in vain.
Seeking
Hi tt,
Consider these verses.Genesis 4:7
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”Romans 1:24
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.Romans 6:12
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.Romans 8:5
Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.Romans 13:14
Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.There is choice.
Seeking said:
Quote You interject – But every sinful desire that is conceived leads to sin.” Which is exactly the point I and Nick have offered. Seeking,
Then you and Nick are arguing with yourselves and not me.Thinker said to Seeking:
Quote You say that hunger is a “lust of the flesh”? Come on! This idea contains the seeds of Gnosticism” Seeking replied:
Quote All sin is the abuse of natural desire! Jesus had been without food for forty days. And you say that if He had chosen to eat that this would have been an “abuse” of natural desire? Scripture says that abuse in reference to eating is called GLUTTONY. Come on! He was hungry! He was not tempted after stuffing Himself! He had fasted for forty days and He would have only fulfilled His legitimate desire to eat! The Scripture condemns the gluttonous desires and not the legitimate desires to eat. Come on! Your idea has Gnostic origins.
Jesus denied Himself a legitimate desire to eat. So let us fall on our faces with thanksgiving!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 24 2009,11:31)
Thinker,No! Or I didn't make myself clear. Satan banked on Jesus using His power to satisfy His hunger. Jesus would not do so.
I am not at all saying that it would have been sin to satisfy
His hunger.In each temptation Satan relied on the avenues that scripture makes clear – fleshy desire – lust of the eyes – the pride of life. If I can speculate, probably because Satan felt they worked so well on others perhaps they will work on Jesus.
Your comment –
Seeking said:Quote
You interject – But every sinful desire that is conceived leads to sin.” Which is exactly the point I and Nick have offered.Seeking,
Then you and Nick are arguing with yourselves and not me.No, no, no, no, no!
Our argument is with you because you denied the desire had to conceive to be sin. Then you offered, “No one has said that every encounter leads to conception.”
But that is exactly what you had said previously. Again,
Quoting you –
You cited Nick in the following – “Nick thinks: Quote
It does not say desires always are followed [by sin] .”and you responded – “Oh yes it does Nick.”
Please see my post to you in Trinity Two. It is not my desire to be butting heads. My desire from you is described there.
Seeking
Hi tt,
A strange thought that inspired men can never gain control over their desires.
Scripture teaches that they can, and should.1 Peter 1:14
As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.1 Peter 2:11
Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul.1 Peter 4:2
As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.
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