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Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 21 2009,10:49) Gene,
What “will” did Jesus have to put to death? He was without the desire to sin. I don't follow you my bro.thinker
Mat 26:39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 23 2009,02:33) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 21 2009,10:49) Gene,
What “will” did Jesus have to put to death? He was without the desire to sin. I don't follow you my bro.thinker
Mat 26:39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as your will.”
Seeking,What was sinful about Jesus' request to be delivered? He knew that the Father would have given Him twelve legions of angels. He did not pray “If it be possible”…. He prayed, “Since it is possible”….
Quote Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will (Mark 14:35, NKJV) If it was sinful for Jesus to ask to be delivered then it would not have been possible that His Father would have delivered Him. Explain why Jesus was assured that His Father would have sent twelve legions of angels if He insisted.
The “if' in Matthew's account is the first class subjunctive mood as indicated by the use of “ei”. This affirms that it was possible for His Father to grant His request. So it should be translated “Since it is possible….” Therefore, there was nothing sinful in Jesus' request to be delivered.
The two wills were not a matter of the one being right and the other being wrong.
thinker
thethinker,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
Quote He knew that the Father would have given Him twelve legions of angels. He also knew he could not make the request and why –
Mat 26:54 But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”Nick asked elsewhere, “who defined sin as disobedience.”
Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.For Jesus to be outsiden the Father's will would have been disobedience. Therefore Jesus sought the Father's will in the matter. We know what Jesus wanted, let this cup pass from me;
Quote Explain why Jesus was assured that His Father would have sent twelve legions of angels if He insisted. Actually, He knew the Father would not send the angels, therefore He would not have insisted. It was more critical that the scriptures be fulfilled – But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”
This statement is not true if Jesus' will was opposed to the Father's –
Quote The two wills were not a matter of the one being right and the other being wrong. Seeking
Hi TT,
He struggled.
But found grace to obey.
He obeyed perfectly but God allows more rope to us.Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” 37And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be grieved and distressed.
38Then He said to them, “My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me.”
39And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.”
40And He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “So, you men could not keep watch with Me for one hour?
41″Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
42He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, “My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done.” “
Sorry to come in late, possibly missing some points already made. But, exactly what was Jesus asking the Father for…….. deliverance from what, exactly? Considering that Jesus previously told His disciples to count it as a blessing if they are persecuted for His name's sake, indeed to receive it with great Joy, then why is Jesus asking the father to deliver Him from suffering? Even if He is willing to go through with it if there is no other way, still it sounds as though He is asking us to do what He did not do Himself.
Or is it possible that He is not asking to be delivered from the cross? But rather delivered from Satan taking His life, so that He can finish the Father's assignment? “My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death;”. Satan tried to kill Him shortly after His birth, tried to get Him to sin during the temptation, tried to have Him stoned to death by the people. Had Satan been successful at any of these, then Jesus would not have gone to the cross, and God's will would have been thwarted, and there would have been no salvation. So here again is Satan in the garden, trying to kill Jesus, even if Satan does not know the effect this would have on God's plan for salvation.
So from His words, it appears Jesus is close to death. Is that the cup He is asking the Father to take from Him, death BEFORE the cross? If so, then surely there is no sin or lack of perfection in that, in asking for the strength to survive for the cross, in order to be able to carry out the Father's will?
Again, sorry if this alternative view, this possibility, has already been pointed out.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 23 2009,14:43) Hi and welcome C,
What do you think he was dying of?
Hi and thanks Nick,
I have no clue, all I have to go on is that Jesus said He was at the point of death— or as Young's literal puts it:”`Exceedingly sorrowful is my soul — unto death; abide ye here, and watch with me.' “. Now I realize this could have possibly been hyperbole to make a point about how bad and weak He was feeling, but then again maybe not.Hi C,
Does this relate?
2Cor7
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.He was carrying the sins of the world?
thethinker said:
Quote Explain why Jesus was assured that His Father would have sent twelve legions of angels if He insisted. Seeking replied:
Quote Actually, He knew the Father would not send the angels, therefore He would not have insisted. It was more critical that the scriptures be fulfilled – But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?” Seeking,
The first part of your statement is totally wrong. Jesus Himself knew that His Father would have granted Him the twelve legions of angels if He insisted,Quote Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He WILL PROVIDE ME with more than twelve legions of angels? (Matt. 26:53) For you to say that His Father would not send the army is a blatant contradiction of what Jesus knew of His relationship with His Father. Let us not project our insecurities in prayer upon Jesus. You and I may pray hoping and groping because we have sin. But Jesus being sinless had full assurance when He prayed.
However, the second part of your statement is the truth. Jesus would not have insisted because He knew that He was sent to fulfill the Scriptures. But IF He had insisted His Father would have listened and you and I would be damned! So let us both be thankful that He denied His legitimate desire to be delivered!
There was no sin at all in Jesus' desire to NOT be tortured and mutilated by His enemies. Yet He denied His legitimate desires so you and I could could be saved!
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 24 2009,03:58) thethinker said: Quote Explain why Jesus was assured that His Father would have sent twelve legions of angels if He insisted. Seeking replied:
Quote Actually, He knew the Father would not send the angels, therefore He would not have insisted. It was more critical that the scriptures be fulfilled – But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?” Seeking,
The first part of your statement is totally wrong. Jesus Himself knew that His Father would have granted Him the twelve legions of angels if He insisted,Quote Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He WILL PROVIDE ME with more than twelve legions of angels? (Matt. 26:53) For you to say that His Father would not send the army is a blatant contradiction of what Jesus knew of His relationship with His Father. Let us not project our insecurities in prayer upon Jesus. You and I may pray hoping and groping because we have sin. But Jesus being sinless had full assurance when He prayed.
However, the second part of your statement is the truth. Jesus would not have insisted because He knew that He was sent to fulfill the Scriptures. But IF He had insisted His Father would have listened and you and I would be damned! So let us both be thankful that He denied His legitimate desire to be delivered!
There was no sin at all in Jesus' desire to NOT be tortured and mutilated by His enemies. Yet He denied His legitimate desires so you and I could could be saved!
thinker
Good points Thinker.OOPs, I wish there was an edit function. I meant to say: Good points, Thinker, I mostly agree. By as folks can surmise by my previous post, I am not certain He even wanted to be delivered. And rather that He only wanted His body strengthened to assure that He made it through to the cross and completed carrying out the Father's will, which was also His will. Considering that He and the Father are one(same will), and that He tells His followers to have joy in persecution for His name's sake, and surely He would not ask us to do what He did not do Himself. ( I realize I probably have a minority view on this, and I am not dogmatic about it, and have not always felt this way.)
But I certainly agree with your statement “But IF He had insisted His Father would have listened and you and I would be damned!”! Tankg goodness He did not call for those angels! I am weask, but He is strong!
thethinker,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
Corinthian,This statement cannot be true –
Quote Or is it possible that He is not asking to be delivered from the cross? But rather delivered from Satan taking His life Joh 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. Joh 10:17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. Luk 23:46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.
Jesus had no concern that Satan could take His life. He gave it up!
Here, I respect your opinion but disagree:
Quote The first part of your statement is totally wrong. Jesus Himself knew that His Father would have granted Him the twelve legions of angels if He insisted, Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He WILL PROVIDE ME with more than twelve legions of angels? (Matt. 26:53)
The next verse negates Jesus making the request or the Father granting it because of the greater importance both Jeus and the Father were aware of –
Mat 26:54 But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”
Quote But IF He had insisted His Father would have listened and you and I would be damned! You have stated the very reason the Father could not/would not comply.
Quote He denied His legitimate desires so you and I could could be saved! Yes! And the Father would have denied them as well!!
Quote For you to say that His Father would not send the army is a blatant contradiction of Here is the extreme the Father would go to that you and I might be saved. No contradiction at all because of what Jesus knew of His relationship with His Father.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
If I may address what appears to be your prayer life from your statements – ” “Let us not project our insecurities in prayer upon Jesus. You and I may pray hoping and groping because we have sin. But Jesus being sinless had full assurance when He prayed.”
Heb 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,
Heb 10:21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.There is no need for insecurity in your payer life, not because of who you are, but because of what Jesus has done! Have confidence and full assurance when you pray.
Mat 21:22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”
Blessings and peace,
Seeking
Corinthian said:
Quote OOPs, I wish there was an edit function. I meant to say: Good points, Thinker, I mostly agree. There is an edit function at the top of your post at the right side. I did not discover it immediately myself.
thinker
Seeking said:
Quote You have stated the very reason the Father could not/would not comply. But Christ's request was not sinful. That's what I am trying to show. If it was sinful, then Christ could not have even asked because He had no sin.
Do you believe that Christ's prayer was sinful? A simple “yes” or “no” would help to avoid confusion.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 23 2009,11:34) Seeking said: Quote You have stated the very reason the Father could not/would not comply. But Christ's request was not sinful. That's what I am trying to show. If it was sinful, then Christ could not have even asked because He had no sin.
Do you believe that Christ's prayer was sinful? A simple “yes” or “no” would help to avoid confusion.
thinker
Thinker,You remind me of the note a preacher found on his pulpit every Sunday morning. It was from his wife and read “KISS.”
The congregation thought it a sweet gesture. One day they found out what it was to remind him of -Keep It Short Stupid!
I'll keep it short –NO.
Seems there is a pathway to sin and having a logical desire to escape what was before Him would not be sin.
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
Jas 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.Oops! I was going to keep it short.
Blessings to you,
Seeking
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 23 2009,11:29) Corinthian said: Quote OOPs, I wish there was an edit function. I meant to say: Good points, Thinker, I mostly agree. There is an edit function at the top of your post at the right side. I did not discover it immediately myself.
thinker
Corinthian,You may have to go to the “Chat, Feedback, Help” area and ask T8 to grant edit rights. He accomodated me very quickly.
Seeking
Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 24 2009,08:13) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 23 2009,11:34) Seeking said: Quote You have stated the very reason the Father could not/would not comply. But Christ's request was not sinful. That's what I am trying to show. If it was sinful, then Christ could not have even asked because He had no sin.
Do you believe that Christ's prayer was sinful? A simple “yes” or “no” would help to avoid confusion.
thinker
Thinker,You remind me of the note a preacher found on his pulpit every Sunday morning. It was from his wife and read “KISS.”
The congregation thought it a sweet gesture. One day they found out what it was to remind him of -Keep It Short Stupid!
I'll keep it short –NO.
Seems there is a pathway to sin and having a logical desire to escape what was before Him would not be sin.
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
Jas 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.Oops! I was going to keep it short.
Blessings to you,
Seeking
Seeking,
I stated from the beginning that Christ did not have the ability to sin. Then Gene said that there were “two wills”, the will of God and the will of Jesus which was sinful. Gene inferred that Christ's desire to be delivered from the cup was sinful. I replied to Gene saying that the two wills did not imply that the one was good and that the other was bad. Then I had to show that His desire to escape the hour could not have been sinful seeing that He had the assurance that His Father would have delivered Him.If there was a shorter path I would have taken it.
thinker
Quote (Corinthian @ Feb. 24 2009,04:17) OOPs, I wish there was an edit function. I meant to say: Good points, Thinker, I mostly agree. By as folks can surmise by my previous post, I am not certain He even wanted to be delivered. And rather that He only wanted His body strengthened to assure that He made it through to the cross and completed carrying out the Father's will, which was also His will. Considering that He and the Father are one(same will), and that He tells His followers to have joy in persecution for His name's sake, and surely He would not ask us to do what He did not do Himself. ( I realize I probably have a minority view on this, and I am not dogmatic about it, and have not always felt this way.) But I certainly agree with your statement “But IF He had insisted His Father would have listened and you and I would be damned!”! Tankg goodness He did not call for those angels! I am weask, but He is strong!
Corinthian,
Welcome to the board btw. I think that in that moment of agony Jesus truly desired to be delivered from that hour. But He knew that the scripture must be fulfilled and so He yielded up His legitimate desires. This is what makes Him our example and so worthy of our love. He yielded up His legitimate desires. I do not believe that there were “two wills” in the sense that many think. Jesus' will to be delivered was not a sinful one.thinker
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